Overlooked plot point/hole in the "Club Of Heroes" arc

[Joker]

Why not bring in The Clock King, King Tut and Egghead while were at it?

Book Worm FTW

 

[rpenguin]

Um, firstly that's not semantics, semantics is basically semiotics, which is how things are placed in frame in a movie to get a certain response.

I used "semantics" properly.

Secondly, and I know this may sound condescending, but you really need to chill out, you've been on the boards for like six months, and you're talking to two of the most established posters like they're children.

I reply indiscriminately. A register date doesn't make you tantamount to royalty.

Finally, you must be one of the only people who's enjoying Morrison's arc. He's bringing things into continuity that didn't need to be brought in. We know Bat-Mite existed, and we know that talented writers worked on those stories, doesn't mean that they need to be brought into the modern comics. Why not bring in The Clock King, King Tut and Egghead while were at it?

We DIDN'T know Batmite existed. We DON'T know whether or not there was a period where the Batman "Family" existed. Do you really know for certain if Ace the Bathound was real? I seriously have no quarrel with bringing in Clock King or Egghead. They brought Harley in, why not a character in the likeness of one of the greatest actors in Hollywood history, Vincent Price.

See, your logic is flawed, and whilst you make interesting arguments you compare modern DC to past Marvel which is self-defeating because DC will have learnt from the mistakes of others. No-one wants another Crisis, it's pointless, everyone wants new, exciting, bold stories. They also want new arcs/events such as NML, because that's what keeps us interested.

I'm not comparing modern DC to past-Marvel. I'm noting how in the 90's, event/cross-over fatigue crippled the industry. Going back to "being one of the only ones that dig Morrisons's run": Have you read around? People HATED War Games/Crimes. There are those that detest Hush, City of Crime, the Red Hood debacle. There's rarely been a consensus on a great Batman book. I'm saying that if you keep throwing life changing events at a character year after year without taking time to slow things down, then event fatigue's going to kick in.

Bottom line, Morrisons run has been haphazard at best, I don't think i've seen more than ten positive comments about it since it started, and that says a hell of a lot.

It's been haphazardly AWESOME. Read around some more, there are lots of people that are fans of his run. Not to mention his run hasn't really dropped too far below 70000. Bottom line, he's writing a Batman book with great dialogue *NOTE DIALOGUE AND NOT JUST ORDERS TO EVERYONE*, he's kicking ass, he's caught up in some mysteries, it's fun!

If you really want big arcs and stuff, they'll happen over time (RIP is coming up, so is some Hush comeback in Tec by the looks of it). Take some time to enjoy a consistently good comic. Christ.

 

[Joker]

We DIDN'T know Batmite existed. We DON'T know whether or not there was a period where the Batman "Family" existed. Do you really know for certain if Ace the Bathound was real?

Uh...yes we do, as there are reprints of the books with them. They existed. Just cause they arent in continuity anymore doesnt mean they dont exisit in the real world, genius. That's what he was talking about.

 

[RobC]

Fair play, you were correct, I messed up semantics and semiotics, my bad.

A join up date doesn't mean anything you're right, but those guys had like nearly 40,000 posts between them, and you were treating them like children, something you shouldn't do to any member.

Now you're arguing against your own argument, because you said that Bat-Mite *should* be brought into continuity because he was in the silver age, now you're saying that we don't know if he was real, and it doesn't matter. Which one is it? And seriously, bring in Clock King and Egghead? Two campy, nothing villians who were created specifically for a celebrity cameo? Surely you can't agree with that.

Agreed City of Crime is hated by everyone, and Hush and Under The Hood got a mixed reaction, but the majority is good, mainly focused on the addition of a new villian. But i've heard literally like 10 or so positive comments about his recent run. Most of them are negative.

He's writing good dialogue, but the stories are BS, something that everyone agrees on. It's an absolute hodge-podge of characters, half-stories and oddness.

I can't enjoy his run, I don't think it's good. At all. Dini has done some outstanding work on Detective, yet everyone at DC is just falling over themselves for Morrison, something which I find strange.

I think we need to agree to disagree, you enjoy Morrisons run and think it's good writing, I think the opposite. This is what Hype! was made for.

 

[rpenguin]

Uh...yes we do, as there are reprints of the books with them. They existed. Just cause they arent in continuity anymore doesnt mean they dont exisit in the real world, genius. That's what he was talking about.

You literally blew my mind by proposing that I may have confused continuity and real life. By simply presenting that STUPID possibility, my mind exploded. I'm dead now. bleeehh.

But just to clarify, using classic ideas and concepts as a springboard for a new direction... that's as "bad" or "lazy" as using one of Batman's rogues.

Now you're arguing against your own argument, because you said that Bat-Mite *should* be brought into continuity because he was in the silver age, now you're saying that we don't know if he was real, and it doesn't matter. Which one is it?

I was just proposing that we don't truly know what is in Batman's continuity. Meaning, that when Morrison says it ALL is, that gives us such a wonderful, rich history to, as indicated before the quote, use classic ideas as a springboard for new ones.

It's annoying that people want these giant awesome plots, where the dialogue becomes menial and just some sort of task for the writer to carry the story. I hate reading that tripe. Wastes my time. But in Morrison's recent arc? "Bell ringing. Car horns. And cheap perfume. Like a sad old song." That's AWESOME. That's DEPTH. And the story itself is far more engaging that Hush. I think this third Batman is far more of a threat.

 

[RobC]

What i'm getting from you right now is that you only want 'awsome' dialogue and to hell with the story. Right?

I think it's obvious that you're confused, you're using your own arguments against each other, and constantly contradicting yourself.

You lose my friend.

 

[Cain]

Ummm the clock king has been around in DC comics since before we were even born. Read some classic Green Arrow sometime. as for Morisson's run I don't like it outside of the first arc it's done nothing for me as a reader so I dropped it. Good concepts but poor execution I commend him in what he's trying to do though.

 

[deathfromabove]

jesus, what is wrong with you people? arent others allowed to have opinions?

the op had a question and everyone jumped on him becuase he is actually reading batman right now. if you dont like morrison, thats fine, but why do you have **** this thread up?

 

[rpenguin]

What i'm getting from you right now is that you only want 'awsome' dialogue and to hell with the story. Right?

I think it's obvious that you're confused, you're using your own arguments against each other, and constantly contradicting yourself.

You lose my friend.

I didn't lose. And it's a shame you'd write off the entire discussion like that. It's fine if you don't like WHERE Morrison's going. I get it, it's fine. But writing it all off because he's using old ideas to go in new directions? Give me a break.
To want giant status quo arcs because that's the only way to make things interesting? No thanks.
We got over a year of nice, fairly self contained stories, with old and new ideas aplenty. And again, if you didn't like the direction, I think the dialogue and smaller ideas presented so far are at least something to enjoy (or it's salvageable). If you're looking for some "big picture" direction of the run, I feel you're sincerely missing out on a lot of great, important things that have been sorely neglected for years.

 

[baerrtt]

The point of INFINITE CRISIS (which amongst others led to the style/storylines in Morrison's run) was that in 'moving forward' DC felt (and there are fans that have felt this too) that their heroes weren't acting like heroes anymore. They gave Batman storyline after storyline, new idea after new idea and the character STILL didn't progress.

Morrison making or adapting EVERYTHING in Batman's history canon gives us a, imo, more complex character (rather than there being two characters historically 'Light' Batman and 'Dark' Batman) retroactively explaining why after so many cautionary tales (KNIGHTFALL, FUGITIVE/MURDERER, HUSH etc) the character still has some personality 'issues' when it comes to how he treats people supposedly close to him.

I've enjoyed Morrison's run (and his ideas) because it celebrates what a truly chameleonic character we have and (along with Dini's run on Detective) hopefully allows future writers the freedom to not stick to one tone of story (dark) which as the examples above prove aren't useful if they don't truly progress the character in any proper fashion.

 

[deathfromabove]

well said new guy...

 

[Joker]

Yes, it's great that he's made non-dark Batman stories...it would also be great if someone made some Sherlock Holmes stories where he's a bumbling idiot...oh wait, neither of those are great, they both suck. Just like Morrisons run.

 

[rpenguin]

Yes, it's great that he's made non-dark Batman stories...it would also be great if someone made some Sherlock Holmes stories where he's a bumbling idiot...oh wait, neither of those are great, they both suck. Just like Morrisons run.

You're saying non-dark Batman stories are awful? Is that what you MEANT to say, though?

Seriously buddy, all Morrison did was give writers a greater well to draw from. If that's your main problem you need to get things straight: It might be a 50's happy-go-lucky story, but it's a story that can be interpreted in all kinds of contexts.
For instance? Morrison used a relatively light story, the Joe Chill story from the fifties, and presented us with a tremendously dark version of Batman absolutely tormenting the man who murdered his parents. That was a goddamn dark, awesome Batman.

What it seems like to me, is that you want a Batman with a completely angery, consistently dark history. Face it, pal. Batman's smiled in his life and had fun and maybe even drank some alcohol and had some sex and smoked a ceegar.

 

[RobC]

Exactly, everyone's know's that he had a light past, but hardly anyone wants it now. We all accept that in the past Bat-Mite existed and so did Ace and loads of other crazy crap that was around because of the specific era.

Now-a-days though, hardly anyone wants that. Those stories, whilst accepted, are overly derided because they're silly. Same reason that everyone accepts B+R, but still no-onr likes it.

Morrison didn't need to bring back Bat-Mite, at all, he did it because for some unknown reason he thought it would be cool. I don't see why you can't accept that not many people here enjoy his run of late.

Seriously, I get that you enjoy it, but defending it to the hilt like this is just making you seem... You know... Obsessed.

 

[baerrtt]

Exactly, everyone's know's that he had a light past, but hardly anyone wants it now. We all accept that in the past Bat-Mite existed and so did Ace and loads of other crazy crap that was around because of the specific era.

Now-a-days though, hardly anyone wants that. Those stories, whilst accepted, are overly derided because they're silly. Same reason that everyone accepts B+R, but still no-onr likes it.

Morrison didn't need to bring back Bat-Mite, at all, he did it because for some unknown reason he thought it would be cool. I don't see why you can't accept that not many people here enjoy his run of late.

Seriously, I get that you enjoy it, but defending it to the hilt like this is just making you seem... You know... Obsessed.

In attempting to make the character appear more 'mature' pushing out the silly stuff did wonders initially but if you have a dark character who gets darker every passing year (basically the 20 years between THE DARK KNIGHT RETURNS and INFINITE CRISIS) ultimately how is that beneficial? I used to enjoy Bruce Timm's take on Batman and still do because from BTAS to JLU they realised what Morrison realises. Batman (the character, the flexible history) is wide ranging. He and his supporting characters (especially the portrayal of the Joker) can be anything any time.

As I said before the 'new' ideas did nothing because the point (or so I thought) of a majority of the storylines I mentioned in my previous post were to make Batman more trusting of his aliies/friends and yet this development of character was conveniently forgotten every time the next 'event' rolled round.

Canonising stories from the era(s) where silliness was rife may rile fans who see/want Batman as an anti-hero similar to the Punisher (not a killer perhaps but with the same borderline sociopathic tendencies) but in leading to the RIP storyline (the latest of these Batman learns to love/like/trust people again storylines) Morrison is justifying why this time that fact is important. He has a history where his 'mission' somedays made him feel genuinely good, a friendship/partnership with Grayson that he was eternally grateful for at that stage in his life.

The silly aspects of the character's history (the 50s at time OTT stories and the 60s tv series) may be derided by 'serious' fans but adding or adapting those storylines to what we've read in the last 20 years makes the character far richer than before imho.

 

[baerrtt]

Exactly, everyone's know's that he had a light past, but hardly anyone wants it now. We all accept that in the past Bat-Mite existed and so did Ace and loads of other crazy crap that was around because of the specific era.

Now-a-days though, hardly anyone wants that. Those stories, whilst accepted, are overly derided because they're silly. Same reason that everyone accepts B+R, but still no-onr likes it.

Morrison didn't need to bring back Bat-Mite, at all, he did it because for some unknown reason he thought it would be cool. I don't see why you can't accept that not many people here enjoy his run of late.

Seriously, I get that you enjoy it, but defending it to the hilt like this is just making you seem... You know... Obsessed.

In attempting to make the character appear more 'mature' pushing out the silly stuff did wonders initially but if you have a dark character who gets darker every passing year (basically the 20 years between THE DARK KNIGHT RETURNS and INFINITE CRISIS) ultimately how is that beneficial? I used to enjoy Bruce Timm's take on Batman and still do because from BTAS to JLU they realised what Morrison realises. Batman (the character, the flexible history) is wide ranging. He and his supporting characters (especially the portrayal of the Joker) can be anything any time.

As I said before the 'new' ideas did nothing because the point (or so I thought) of a majority of the storylines I mentioned in my previous post were to make Batman more trusting of his aliies/friends and yet this development of character was conveniently forgotten every time the next 'event' rolled round.

Canonising stories from the era(s) where silliness was rife may rile fans who see/want Batman as an anti-hero similar to the Punisher (not a killer perhaps but with the same borderline sociopathic tendencies) but in leading to the RIP storyline (the latest of these Batman learns to love/like/trust people again storylines) Morrison is justifying why this time that fact is important. He has a history where his 'mission' somedays made him feel genuinely good, a friendship/partnership with Grayson that he was eternally grateful for at that stage in his life.

The silly aspects of the character's history (the 50s at time OTT stories and the 60s tv series) may be derided by 'serious' fans but adding or adapting those storylines to what we've read in the last 20 years makes the character far richer than before imho.

 

[lixdexia]

In attempting to make the character appear more 'mature' pushing out the silly stuff did wonders initially but if you have a dark character who gets darker every passing year (basically the 20 years between THE DARK KNIGHT RETURNS and INFINITE CRISIS) ultimately how is that beneficial? I used to enjoy Bruce Timm's take on Batman and still do because from BTAS to JLU they realised what Morrison realises. Batman (the character, the flexible history) is wide ranging. He and his supporting characters (especially the portrayal of the Joker) can be anything any time.

As I said before the 'new' ideas did nothing because the point (or so I thought) of a majority of the storylines I mentioned in my previous post were to make Batman more trusting of his aliies/friends and yet this development of character was conveniently forgotten every time the next 'event' rolled round.

Canonising stories from the era(s) where silliness was rife may rile fans who see/want Batman as an anti-hero similar to the Punisher (not a killer perhaps but with the same borderline sociopathic tendencies) but in leading to the RIP storyline (the latest of these Batman learns to love/like/trust people again storylines) Morrison is justifying why this time that fact is important. He has a history where his 'mission' somedays made him feel genuinely good, a friendship/partnership with Grayson that he was eternally grateful for at that stage in his life.

The silly aspects of the character's history (the 50s at time OTT stories and the 60s tv series) may be derided by 'serious' fans but adding or adapting those storylines to what we've read in the last 20 years makes the character far richer than before imho.

flexibility is great sure, but in an ongoing narative about a character constantly having him shift personas is stupid.i don't mind characters like batmite or ace or whoever, but i don't feel they currently have a place in this continuity. now, a few years from now re-introducing batmite may turn out to be a great move, but chances are as soon as morrison leaves the book it's going to be forgotten. that's the problem with the way dc's been running batman of late, the status quo does a complete 180 from arc to arc and it makes it hard to make any of the changes introduced in each one stick. going back to the silver age is crap, it had it's time and now it's time to move forward. regressing characters to a point in their past is weak story telling, which of late seems to be the only kind morrison can produce.

 

[rpenguin]

flexibility is great sure, but in an ongoing narative about a character constantly having him shift personas is stupid.

You're almost implying that changing writers is stupid, unless you just dislike the idea of Batman not being constantly the same angry guy for his career. I buy him being a dark avenger, turned into kind of a lighter, happier version with Robin, then gradually back into whatever he was by Infinite Crisis. I enjoy it because it means he's more of a person and has had ups and downs.

i don't mind characters like batmite or ace or whoever, but i don't feel they currently have a place in this continuity.

Why not, if they work? At most, Morrison presented Batmite as an imaginary friend. The years Dick and Bruce spent together have been a grey area ever since Batman: Year One.

now, a few years from now re-introducing batmite may turn out to be a great move, but chances are as soon as morrison leaves the book it's going to be forgotten. that's the problem with the way dc's been running batman of late, the status quo does a complete 180 from arc to arc and it makes it hard to make any of the changes introduced in each one stick.

This has been a "problem" in EVERY COMIC EVER because writers CHANGE. These are merely adventures in a man's long career told by dozens/hundreds. There's no way it is going to be perfectly seamless.

going back to the silver age is crap, it had it's time and now it's time to move forward. regressing characters to a point in their past is weak story telling, which of late seems to be the only kind morrison can produce.

For christ sakes. HE IS NOT GOING BACK TO THE SILVER AGE. He's drawing ideas from it! Is this really hard to understand? Remember how District Attorney Harvey Dent was disfigured by a mob boss? Yeah, that didn't happen first in Long Halloween. Just like Joker being the Red Hood didn't first happen in The Killing Joke.

 

[lixdexia]

You're almost implying that changing writers is stupid, unless you just dislike the idea of Batman not being constantly the same angry guy for his career. I buy him being a dark avenger, turned into kind of a lighter, happier version with Robin, then gradually back into whatever he was by Infinite Crisis. I enjoy it because it means he's more of a person and has had ups and downs.

no, what i'm saying is that the editors should hold a tighter reign on the books. marvel's ultimate titles are an excelent example, especially ultimate x-men.

Why not, if they work? At most, Morrison presented Batmite as an imaginary friend. The years Dick and Bruce spent together have been a grey area ever since Batman: Year One.

because of the character they exude. the general tone of the book before morrison took over was that of a superhero book with an emphasis on crime stories, ever since it has become consistently lighter and less intresting.

This has been a "problem" in EVERY COMIC EVER because writers CHANGE. These are merely adventures in a man's long career told by dozens/hundreds. There's no way it is going to be perfectly seamless.

see first part

For christ sakes. HE IS NOT GOING BACK TO THE SILVER AGE. He's drawing ideas from it! Is this really hard to understand? Remember how District Attorney Harvey Dent was disfigured by a mob boss? Yeah, that didn't happen first in Long Halloween. Just like Joker being the Red Hood didn't first happen in The Killing Joke.

for the love of mike, THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT MORRISON HIMSELF HAS STATED HE IS TRYING TO DO WITH THIS RUN. batmite is a silverage character with the sensibilities that implies. he may be a completely different character now and morrison could just be using his image for shock value, but either way his image carries with it a certain sence of character that doesn't fit in batman's current world. you want stories with him in it? great, write a letter to the guys over at all star or confidential and let them work with the character out of canon where he belongs.

 

[rpenguin]

because of the character they exude. the general tone of the book before morrison took over was that of a superhero book with an emphasis on crime stories, ever since it has become consistently lighter and less intresting.

I really don't know what you're talking about here. Before Morrison took the reigns, we had half a book with Harvey trying to resolve who he was, and Batman cleaning up Gotham. Before that, it was just Red Hood constantly owning Batman. Now? Batman is investigating some sort of dark secret in the Gotham police force that's resulted in Gordon and prostitutes being terrorized. Before that, Morrison had Batman saving the British prime minister or something, I forget.

for the love of mike, THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT MORRISON HIMSELF HAS STATED HE IS TRYING TO DO WITH THIS RUN. batmite is a silverage character with the sensibilities that implies. he may be a completely different character now and morrison could just be using his image for shock value, but either way his image carries with it a certain sence of character that doesn't fit in batman's current world. you want stories with him in it? great, write a letter to the guys over at all star or confidential and let them work with the character out of canon where he belongs.

I seriously don't remember Morrison stating that at all. It's heartwarming I could share statements with that wonderful Scot. I doubt many people know much about the connotations Batmite has, besides being a some sort of character/imp from the 50's. I'm a massive Batman fan and I've never read a story with Batmite (outside of something from Superman/Batman maybe?). And besides your quarrel with Batmite, which has been handled in FLASHBACK FORM, I don't find your argument valid. You just seem to dislike SEEING the character.

 

[RobC]

I think that's the point, most fans *dislike* seeing Bat-Mite, because most fans dislike the throwback to the Silver Age.

Guys, honestly, this is an agree to disagree moment, rpenguin likes Morrisons run, some other people don't.

I like Nolan instead of Burton. Yeah, I dropped that bomb...

 

[Cain]

regressing characters to a point in their past is weak story telling, which of late seems to be the only kind morrison can produce.

All-Star Superman is on the line and would like to have a word with you.

 

[RobC]

All-Star is different, it's a complete re-boot with the intention of regression. Batman has made tremendous leaps and bounds forward in the fields of realism, something that the majority of fans enjoy. So for Morrison to start going back is, well, questionable at the very least.

 

[Cain]

It had more to do with him saying that all Morisson has been capable as of late is weak storytelling than the fact that it's a throwback to the silver age of Superman comics. In terms of storytelling that is one of the strongest titles on the market today so it's not like Morisson has totally lost it or something. As far as canonical tales go I don't mind silver age elements being brought back so long as they are done through good storytelling.

Things go in cycles so I don't mind silver age elements being used to tell new stories. I just don't think that Morisson's current Batman work outside of Batman & Son had any real strong storytelling so I dropped it. The canonical Superman books (which as I understand it indeed does include Superman Confidential) have also brought back certain silver age elements post-IC. People like Geoff Johns & Darwyn Cooke among others have been able to implement them very well within the canon due to strong storytelling.

 

[Parents-Gun-Bat]

Batman Returns is much campier and sillier than all those Silver Age elements Grant Morrison integrated - together. I don't get you guys sometimes. Batman is not some extremely dark material there has always been a light side. Sometimes it was brighter than all the darkness could cover