Comics Peter Parker has always Loved MJ more than Gwen!

[DACMAN]

Don't believe me? Read Amazing Spider-Man 149 and 150. I get into it all the time with people who say his true love was always Gwen. Which I kind of agreed with. Not after having read 149 and 150 again. Peter has the choice to even be with Gwen after her death, and he decides to be with MJ. That's pretty big.

 

[Reilly28]

That wasn't the Gwen. It was a clone. Read the end of Sins Past when Peter pictures Gwen when he tells MJ he loves her. He STILL wishes MJ was Gwen even though she slept with his greatest enemy. He totally loves Gwen more.

 

[DACMAN]

Yeah, it was a clone. But as Peter thought about it, it didn't matter. In 150 he makes it really clear that even with Gwen in the picture all he could think about was MJ. Which is also how he figured out he was the real Peter Parker and not the clone. Go back and read the issue, it doesn't matter to Peter that she might be a clone (they were unsure at the time) his mind went to MJ and he realised that he wanted to be with her, even though he had Gwen back now. Like I said, that's a HUGE plot point as it's the reason he knows that he isn't the clone, so much so he throws out the paper work Conner's gives him on who is the clone.

And it never says any where in Sins Past that he loved Gwen more than MJ. In fact all it really let us know was that they never had sex.

 

[Meehaul]

I don't know for sure what Pete thought, although Marvel has tried to ret-con Pete's respective feelings for MJ/Gwen (see SPider-Man: Blue), but I always liked Gwen a lot better. Marvel tried to sort of "Gwenify" MJ over time because she'd been presented as the shallow party-girl model actress and that didn't fit Pete at all. But when you're working with characters that appeared 47 odd years ago, you've got a lot of room for re-writes. Even on the cartoon sensational Spider-Man, tho, Gwen is the more compelling character. I have to confess I always dug the idea of Gwen's death casting a huge shadow over Pete's life. I just wish Marvel had killed off MJ instead of doing the silly Mephisto thing.

 

[The Joker]

I've never been entirely sold on Peter and MJ as a couple. Their marriage was as dull as ditch water. I'm glad Marvel ended it, I just hate the lazy and lame way they did it.

And the fact that Peter never had sex with Gwen doesn't mean he loved her any less.

 

[Venom 1988]

I can't remember what issue it was exactly (towards during Stan Lee's initial run) but it was heavily implied that Peter & Gwen were about to have sex

 

[Spidermanfan]

really?

 

[Dragon]

Yeah, it was a clone. But as Peter thought about it, it didn't matter. In 150 he makes it really clear that even with Gwen in the picture all he could think about was MJ. Which is also how he figured out he was the real Peter Parker and not the clone. Go back and read the issue, it doesn't matter to Peter that she might be a clone (they were unsure at the time) his mind went to MJ and he realised that he wanted to be with her, even though he had Gwen back now. Like I said, that's a HUGE plot point as it's the reason he knows that he isn't the clone, so much so he throws out the paper work Conner's gives him on who is the clone.

And it never says any where in Sins Past that he loved Gwen more than MJ. In fact all it really let us know was that they never had sex.

You need to read that issue again. What Peter is saying in 150 is that he knows he can't be the clone because he assumes that the clone, due to Warren's influence, would be in love with Gwen and not register feelings for MJ. Which is ridiculous, since in 149 the clone is injected with Peter's RNA and possesses Peter's memory. So, if MJ was in his thoughts as the woman he loves, then it would also be in the clone's thoughts.

Morever, the original clone saga was written by Gerry Conway, who was quite vocal in his dislike for Gwen. If the story- or for that matter ASM #121 was written by Stan Lee it might have had a different outcome.

And all those issues really show is that Peter chose to live in the present, rather than try to recreate the past with a clone of Gwen. Which would have been pretty nuts.

It really depends on the writer and editorial policy. In ASM #500, when Peter had to relive his life, and he watches Gwen die a second time, he wants to stop there and not continue forward, even though he knows MJ is waiting for him in the future. And then there was the House of M thing, which really was wish-fulfillment on Peter's part and he chose to be with Gwen. And of course, when he had an ACTUAL choice between Gwen and MJ, when the real Gwen was alive, we know who he chose.
As for Sins Past, we also know that JMS initially intended for the children to be Peter's and he started writing the story with that in mind. It was that genius Joe Quesada who nixed this at the eleventh hour because of his no children for Peter rule. So that's the only reason the no sex thing came up. In the comics however, just as we have ASM #149 & 150 to suggest sex between Peter and MJ, we have ASMs 99 & 100 to suggest the same with Gwen.

But as I've said on several occasions Gwen was a great missed opportunity for Marvel. She was the best developed character for a relationship with Peter. Which tells us again, that Stan knew best.

 

[stillanerd]

You need to read that issue again. What Peter is saying in 150 is that he knows he can't be the clone because he assumes that the clone, due to Warren's influence, would be in love with Gwen and not register feelings for MJ. Which is ridiculous, since in 149 the clone is injected with Peter's RNA and possesses Peter's memory. So, if MJ was in his thoughts as the woman he loves, then it would also be in the clone's thoughts.

Morever, the original clone saga was written by Gerry Conway, who was quite vocal in his dislike for Gwen. If the story- or for that matter ASM #121 was written by Stan Lee it might have had a different outcome.

And all those issues really show is that Peter chose to live in the present, rather than try to recreate the past with a clone of Gwen. Which would have been pretty nuts.

It really depends on the writer and editorial policy. In ASM #500, when Peter had to relive his life, and he watches Gwen die a second time, he wants to stop there and not continue forward, even though he knows MJ is waiting for him in the future. And then there was the House of M thing, which really was wish-fulfillment on Peter's part and he chose to be with Gwen. And of course, when he had an ACTUAL choice between Gwen and MJ, when the real Gwen was alive, we know who he chose.
As for Sins Past, we also know that JMS initially intended for the children to be Peter's and he started writing the story with that in mind. It was that genius Joe Quesada who nixed this at the eleventh hour because of his no children for Peter rule. So that's the only reason the no sex thing came up. In the comics however, just as we have ASM #149 & 150 to suggest sex between Peter and MJ, we have ASMs 99 & 100 to suggest the same with Gwen.

But as I've said on several occasions Gwen was a great missed opportunity for Marvel. She was the best developed character for a relationship with Peter. Which tells us again, that Stan knew best.

While I do agree that Peter does love Gwen still despite the fact that she died--primarily because he feels indirectly responsible for her death almost as much as he does for Uncle Ben's--people forget that Gwen Stacy was killed because her character had been written into a corner. Peter and her relationship was getting to the point where either one of two things would have happened:

1. he would have to reveal his identity to her--which based upon how she broke down in tears the first time he did this prior to having the Prowler convince them otherwise, not to mention she held Spider-Man responsible for the death of her father, would likely have resulted in the two of them breaking up.

2. They would have gotten married, but considering how they hadn't even finished college yet, that was still considered too young and Marvel, ironically, didn't want to go down that path with Peter.

In truth, the only reason Gwen is remembered so fondly today and is considered one of Peter's great loves along with Mary Jane is BECAUSE she was tragically murdered.

Also, lets not forget that Gwen's personality was REALLY watered down to the point where she was all but idolized to the point of blandness, all because Stan Lee wanted so badly for her to be Peter's one true love. Compare how Gwen started out when Steve Ditko was the co-plotter and artist to after he left and John Romita Sr. took over. There's a really interesting account about this on the Spider-Man 2 DVD feature called "Interwoven: The Women of Spider-Man." There, it's revealed courtesy of John Romita Sr. (and to some extent Stan Lee himself) that Stan's intention was to have Gwen be "the one," but the fans responded very favorably towards Mary Jane because she had a far more engaging and interesting personality. Therefore, Stan tried to "sex up" Gwen by suggesting to Romita to draw her wearing more mini-skirts and dancing to music, changing her hairstyle to make it more similar to MJ's--things which you can actually see transpire in the comics. When Lee then told Romita to make Gwen's hair less blond and add more red into it, that's when Romita finally said "Stan, I can't do that...that's not who Gwen is," arguing that Gwen was more "wholesome" than MJ. Stan realized he was right, and so the changes stopped.

And speaking of the Gwen clone, there's a really good piece on this from Fantaco's Chronicles series on Spider-Man that I found on comic boards that talk about Gerry Conway's run, which touches upon "The Night Gwen Stacy Died" and the aftermath. Essentially, Stan wanted Gwen brought back after she was killed because he believed that's what the fans demanded, so Gerry Conway obliged by technically bringing her back via her clone. However, when it actually did happen, those same fans realized what a cop-out it actually was to bring Gwen back. Here's the article in question:

 

[Meehaul]

Stan and Gerry Conway, actually, have both said on occasion (although Stan says pretty much whatever he thinks the audience wants to hear) that Gwen was written to be the "perfect" girl for Pete, but then the writers wrote themselves into a box because the relationship should have progressed to marriage, but no one thought a married Peter Parker was a good thing, so Marvel did the next best thing: they killed Gwen off. Pity MJ couldn't have faced the same fate....

 

[stillanerd]

Stan and Gerry Conway, actually, have both said on occasion (although Stan says pretty much whatever he thinks the audience wants to hear) that Gwen was written to be the "perfect" girl for Pete, but then the writers wrote themselves into a box because the relationship should have progressed to marriage, but no one thought a married Peter Parker was a good thing, so Marvel did the next best thing: they killed Gwen off. Pity MJ couldn't have faced the same fate....

Well, technically, she did under Howard Mackie when he had her apparently die in an airplane explosion in Amazing Spider-Man vol. 2 #13. Readers pretty much accused him of blatantly ripping off what Gerry Conway did to develop Peter and MJ's relationship after Gwen's death, only this time using Jill Stacy--Gwen's British dark-haired lookalike cousin--as the friend who comforts Peter in his grief, develops romantic feelings for him, which would then result in the two of them--at least according to Mackie's original plan--for them to become a couple until it was revealed MJ was still alive. Apparently, he was actually going to reveal MJ was still alive in Amazing Spider-Man vol. 2 #50. But, with JMS being hired to write for Amazing, Mackie revealed MJ was still alive much sooner and had Peter reject Jill's advances, thus the two of them never got together at all and Jill has been shuffled off into character limbo ever since.

 

[Dragon]

While I do agree that Peter does love Gwen still despite the fact that she died--primarily because he feels indirectly responsible for her death almost as much as he does for Uncle Ben's--people forget that Gwen Stacy was killed because her character had been written into a corner. Peter and her relationship was getting to the point where either one of two things would have happened:

1. he would have to reveal his identity to her--which based upon how she broke down in tears the first time he did this prior to having the Prowler convince them otherwise, not to mention she held Spider-Man responsible for the death of her father, would likely have resulted in the two of them breaking up.

2. They would have gotten married, but considering how they hadn't even finished college yet, that was still considered too young and Marvel, ironically, didn't want to go down that path with Peter.

Well, of course we've gone over this before. And the thing is, this is far from true. A break-up or marriage weren't the only options. And, in terms of revealing his identity, Gwen only freaked out because Peter himself was acting like a nut-job. He was delirious with the flu, had missed her birthday party and shows up at her door looking like a zombie and holding a Spidey mask.

It wasn't that Gwen or Peter and Gwen had been written into a corner. It was that Conway, not liking the character to begin with simply didn't exercise any creativity in handling her. And yes, certainly the chauvinism of the time dictated that Gwen's options were small. She could have sought to explore her future and they could have had her and Peter realy examine their relationship. She should have learned Peter's identity and they could've dealt with the dramatic fallout of that. There was tons of things we didn't know about Gwen that could have been explored. Her background, her family. We never heard anything about her mother.

In truth, the only reason Gwen is remembered so fondly today and is considered one of Peter's great loves along with Mary Jane is BECAUSE she was tragically murdered.

That's only if you're a fan of MJ. I and most others who like Gwen liked her for the person she was written to be. Her death is incidental. And lets be clear. When Gwen was in the comics she was very popular. In fact, when she was killed, sales dropped, and didn't return to the same level until she was brought back in ASM #144. The real reason why MJ may be more popular is because of the era in which she was brought to the foreground. Marvel went on a big campaign to make her known to the world when they had Spidey get married. MJ, unlike Gwen could have whole stories devoted to her. Many fans grew up knowing only MJ as Spider-Man's love interest. Gwen was just a phantom shown in flashbacks every few years. In fact it's a testament to the strength of Gwen's character that having been dead for nearly 40 years she remains as well known as she is.

And let's also be clear. MJ has certainly worn-out her welcome many times and been given her walking papers. After ASM#150 the relatiosnhip between Peter and MJ comes to a very quick standstill and they seem to be barely friends, let alone lovers. So Peter's proposal to her appears terribly out of place.

So, it wasn't a problem with Gwen. The same problems happened with MJ.

Also, lets not forget that Gwen's personality was REALLY watered down to the point where she was all but idolized to the point of blandness, all because Stan Lee wanted so badly for her to be Peter's one true love. Compare how Gwen started out when Steve Ditko was the co-plotter and artist to after he left and John Romita Sr. took over. There's a really interesting account about this on the Spider-Man 2 DVD feature called "Interwoven: The Women of Spider-Man." There, it's revealed courtesy of John Romita Sr. (and to some extent Stan Lee himself) that Stan's intention was to have Gwen be "the one," but the fans responded very favorably towards Mary Jane because she had a far more engaging and interesting personality. Therefore, Stan tried to "sex up" Gwen by suggesting to Romita to draw her wearing more mini-skirts and dancing to music, changing her hairstyle to make it more similar to MJ's--things which you can actually see transpire in the comics. When Lee then told Romita to make Gwen's hair less blond and add more red into it, that's when Romita finally said "Stan, I can't do that...that's not who Gwen is," arguing that Gwen was more "wholesome" than MJ. Stan realized he was right, and so the changes stopped.

See, this is all revisionist history. If you go back and read the comics, the fan mail didn't reflect this. Gwen was a popular character and no one compared her to MJ. And let's also note that John Romita, while being one of my favorite artists, drew all of his women the same. ONLY the hairstyles distinquished them. Sure, there were MJ fans, but very few felt she and Peter needed to be an item. And again- sales dropped after Gwen was gone. If a relatiosnhip with MJ is what the fans wanted, this wasn't reflected by sales. MJ's character had no dramatic weight when Gwen was alive. All she ever did was stick her head in and make a joke or two for a few panels. So sure, folks would think she's fun. When she became the female lead of the book, she became exactly as Gwen was presented. So the point is, that the writing needed to be more creative in handling them both.

And speaking of the Gwen clone, there's a really good piece on this from Fantaco's Chronicles series on Spider-Man that I found on comic boards that talk about Gerry Conway's run, which touches upon "The Night Gwen Stacy Died" and the aftermath. Essentially, Stan wanted Gwen brought back after she was killed because he believed that's what the fans demanded, so Gerry Conway obliged by technically bringing her back via her clone. However, when it actually did happen, those same fans realized what a cop-out it actually was to bring Gwen back. Here's the article in question:

Gerry Conway was a teenager when he started writing Spidey. So he wasn't equipped to write a relationship. This is evidenced by the fact that on most titles he worked on he broke up the main characters. On Ironman he ended Stark's relationship with the woman he loved. On Fantastic Four he had Reed and Sue nearly divorce. On Thor he killed off Thor's girl Sif to bring back the VERY BLAND Jane Foster. And unlike Spidey, Conway didn't even have Thor shed a tear for Sif. And on Spidey, he left the title immediately after bringing Peter and MJ together.

 

[stillanerd]

Well, of course we've gone over this before. And the thing is, this is far from true. A break-up or marriage weren't the only options. And, in terms of revealing his identity, Gwen only freaked out because Peter himself was acting like a nut-job. He was delirious with the flu, had missed her birthday party and shows up at her door looking like a zombie and holding a Spidey mask.

It wasn't that Gwen or Peter and Gwen had been written into a corner. It was that Conway, not liking the character to begin with simply didn't exercise any creativity in handling her. And yes, certainly the chauvinism of the time dictated that Gwen's options were small. She could have sought to explore her future and they could have had her and Peter realy examine their relationship. She should have learned Peter's identity and they could've dealt with the dramatic fallout of that. There was tons of things we didn't know about Gwen that could have been explored. Her background, her family. We never heard anything about her mother.

And I do agree that all of these are fair points.

That's only if you're a fan of MJ.

I don't think that's the only reason. Remember, Gwen being killed was considered a defining moment not just in Spider-Man's publishing history but in the history of comic books. Because it bucked against the conventional wisdom that the hero would always be there to save his lady love. It was her death which made Gwen Stacy not just another girlfriend but forever put her on a pedestal as "the one who was tragically killed," to where it's almost on the same level as Uncle Ben's. And that it became important not just for Spider-Man's development as a character but for other characters as well, and what cemented the Green Goblin as Spider-Man's arch-nemesis, even if he too ended up being "killed" as well. Had she not died, whose to say she wouldn't be as memorable as say Marcy Kane or Cissy Ironwood?

I and most others who like Gwen liked her for the person she was written to be. Her death is incidental. And lets be clear. When Gwen was in the comics she was very popular. In fact, when she was killed, sales dropped, and didn't return to the same level until she was brought back in ASM #144. The real reason why MJ may be more popular is because of the era in which she was brought to the foreground. Marvel went on a big campaign to make her known to the world when they had Spidey get married. MJ, unlike Gwen could have whole stories devoted to her. Many fans grew up knowing only MJ as Spider-Man's love interest. Gwen was just a phantom shown in flashbacks every few years. In fact it's a testament to the strength of Gwen's character that having been dead for nearly 40 years she remains as well known as she is.

Yes, I saw those sales figures from Comichron as well. And actually, you're slightly wrong (and I'll explain why a bit later).

But you also touch upon something else: first of all, that it's now become pretty cemented in popular culture that Mary Jane is Spider-Man's primary love interest, in part due to how many years she and Peter have been in an on-again/off-again relationship (not to mention 20 years real time of a now retconed marriage).

But second, Gwen is always presented as this saintly, virginal innocent that was tragically killed before her time and someone Peter genuinely loved. Yet, if you actually go back and read the issues she was in, especially the Ditko issues, she was actually kind of a b****, always annoyed with Peter but couldn't for the life of her figure out why she was just so gosh darn attracted to him. Once Romita became the artist, that's when her personality started to become more of a "girl next door type" but not before having her act like Mary Jane in terms of wearing trendy skirts and dancing wildly to music. It's only when her father got introduced that she then became "daddy's little girl" and then, once he was killed, her behavior seemed eerily similar Betty Brant when Peter was dating her, in that she loved Peter but couldn't stand Spider-Man because she blamed him for the loss of a loved one.

This is not meant to disparage Gwen, here, but rather to show that a lot of nostalgia for Gwen Stacy by other writers essentially clouded their perception on who she really was, projecting their own fantasies of their ideal dream girl onto her rather than really understanding who she was as a character and that their reason to project qualities onto her might be a result of the fact that she was underdeveloped as a character. That's another consequence that resulted from her death, as well.

And let's also be clear. MJ has certainly worn-out her welcome many times and been given her walking papers. After ASM#150 the relatiosnhip between Peter and MJ comes to a very quick standstill and they seem to be barely friends, let alone lovers. So Peter's proposal to her appears terribly out of place.

I chalk that up to Len Wein wanting to play it safe after Conway, although there are a couple of times where it's suggested Peter and MJ have a pretty physical relationship albeit with nothing explicit given the Comics Code Authority. Also, Marv Wolfman, I believe, intentionally had Peter propose marriage to Mary Jane for the express purpose of having the two of them split up--not to mention introduce the whole subplot of Peter being tempted to rekindle a romance with Betty despite the fact that she was still legally married to Ned Leeds. Also, it's very evident that another reason Wolfman did so was it was clear he had plans to further explore MJ as a character. It was he, after all, who first revealed that MJ's parents were divorced and that this was partly the reason why she was afraid to marry Peter and tended to shy away from serious relationships--something which only got followed up on by Tom Deflaco years later.

So, it wasn't a problem with Gwen. The same problems happened with MJ.

Not to mention all of Peter's girlfriends.

See, this is all revisionist history. If you go back and read the comics, the fan mail didn't reflect this. Gwen was a popular character and no one compared her to MJ. And let's also note that John Romita, while being one of my favorite artists, drew all of his women the same. ONLY the hairstyles distinquished them. Sure, there were MJ fans, but very few felt she and Peter needed to be an item. And again- sales dropped after Gwen was gone. If a relatiosnhip with MJ is what the fans wanted, this wasn't reflected by sales. MJ's character had no dramatic weight when Gwen was alive. All she ever did was stick her head in and make a joke or two for a few panels. So sure, folks would think she's fun. When she became the female lead of the book, she became exactly as Gwen was presented. So the point is, that the writing needed to be more creative in handling them both.

Perhaps there is some of this, sure. But there's no denying that Stan did always intend for Gwen to be Peter's girlfriend when he introduced her, and Mary Jane was also a popular supporting character, especially since there was a whole mystery built-up about what she looked like (remember she was introduced before Gwen), Romita's "Face it Tiger, You Hit the Jackpot!" panel at the end of issue #42, and her personality as a happy-go-lucky party girl (which of course certainly was intended as comic relief).

And by the way, sales were already declining BEFORE Gwen was killed:

1967--361,663
1968--373,303
1969--372,352
1970--322,195
1971--307,550
1972--288,379
1973--273,204 -- year Gwen Stacy Died
1974--288,232
1975--273,773
1976--282,159
1977--281,860
1978--258,156

http://www.comichron.com/titlespotlights/amazingspiderman.html

And look at that! Sales actually started going UP from the period between 1973 to 1974. So that actually suggests Gwen death DIDN'T drive readers away but actually had the opposite effect.

And, if I remember correctly, some of that fan mail was also talking about how something--ANYTHING--needed to be done with Gwen, as they were getting sick and tired of the whole business of Peter not telling her he was Spider-Man and her being angry at him over some misunderstanding.

Gerry Conway was a teenager when he started writing Spidey. So he wasn't equipped to write a relationship. This is evidenced by the fact that on most titles he worked on he broke up the main characters. On Ironman he ended Stark's relationship with the woman he loved. On Fantastic Four he had Reed and Sue nearly divorce. On Thor he killed off Thor's girl Sif to bring back the VERY BLAND Jane Foster. And unlike Spidey, Conway didn't even have Thor shed a tear for Sif. And on Spidey, he left the title immediately after bringing Peter and MJ together.

I agree that he was young and probably had little experience. But certainly, he had enough talent to actually land the job of being a comic book writer despite his youth and inexperience, so he must have been doing something right.

 

[Dragon]

And I do agree that all of these are fair points.

I don't think that's the only reason. Remember, Gwen being killed was considered a defining moment not just in Spider-Man's publishing history but in the history of comic books. Because it bucked against the conventional wisdom that the hero would always be there to save his lady love. It was her death which made Gwen Stacy not just another girlfriend but forever put her on a pedestal as "the one who was tragically killed," to where it's almost on the same level as Uncle Ben's. And that it became important not just for Spider-Man's development as a character but for other characters as well, and what cemented the Green Goblin as Spider-Man's arch-nemesis, even if he too ended up being "killed" as well. Had she not died, whose to say she wouldn't be as memorable as say Marcy Kane or Cissy Ironwood?

Or, if she was given as much publishing time as MJ and there was a huge publicity campaign around Gwen and Peter's wedding- and if every reader whose picked up the comic since 1987 knew Gwen as Peter's wife/love interest, she'd be linked to Peter just as Lois Lane is linked to Superman.

I've always said that despite my not liking the results, ASM #121-122 are great comics. And while yes, they are a watershed moment in both Spidey and comic book history- So what, really? It's a one-time thing that neither changed Spidey or comics. Yes we were introduced to an era of darker heroes (Punisher, Wolverine, etc.) but ultimately comic books didn't reflect Gwen's death. Popular characters were and still only rarely are killed off- and an unfortuante result of the Goblin's death is the reversal of "final" deaths. The Goblin was the first major villain we SAW die (No explosion without a body or fall into the abyss that were later explained as lucky escapes.) We saw the Goblin die. Felt the finality of it. But of course were told years later it didn't happen. So the event of these issues only ushered in the total meanlinglessness of comic book deaths, as we see in current Spidey.

Yes, I saw those sales figures from Comichron as well. And actually, you're slightly wrong (and I'll explain why a bit later).

You didn't look at the issues...

But you also touch upon something else: first of all, that it's now become pretty cemented in popular culture that Mary Jane is Spider-Man's primary love interest, in part due to how many years she and Peter have been in an on-again/off-again relationship (not to mention 20 years real time of a now retconed marriage).

But second, Gwen is always presented as this saintly, virginal innocent that was tragically killed before her time and someone Peter genuinely loved.

This is only because all we ever get of her over the last near-40 years are quick flashbacks of how much Peter loved her and that she died. If we were presented with actual stories featuring her during the period when characters were allowed to be more flawed and explicitly presented (And if she had some good writing of course) this wouldn't be the case. (Excluding Sin's Past of course).

Yet, if you actually go back and read the issues she was in, especially the Ditko issues, she was actually kind of a b****, always annoyed with Peter but couldn't for the life of her figure out why she was just so gosh darn attracted to him. Once Romita became the artist, that's when her personality started to become more of a "girl next door type" but not before having her act like Mary Jane in terms of wearing trendy skirts and dancing wildly to music.

Okay- this is way too much of a generalization. Now, granted I agree that Gwen's first appearance was a rather b****** introduction. Why? Because Gwen is only looking for an ego-boost, and when Peter doesn't give it, she get ticked off at him. But this was as much to be presented as "Parker luck" as Gwen being a b*****. Obviously we were being presented with "The Chase" aspect of the relationship. The Will-they/Won't they part that always makes for fan excitement. They were also establishing Gwen as a gal with gumption. Betty became a wear on Peter due to her squeemishishness about Spider-Man. So Gwen was being shown to have some backbone. As for her feelings about Peter she knew why she liked him. She could sense the strength within him. She was just annoyed that he was constantly blowing her off.

As far as the post-MJ stuff- it isn't as if MJ would have had an exclusive on either partying or dressing sexy. MOST young girls at that time dressed that way and went hanging out (Not wanting to be considered "square") Before MJ's intro Gwen was in fact having parties and invited Peter to them. But of course, his life as Spidey drove a wedge in that. And, of course, once Gwen and Peter became an item, the focus was more on them alone than being in the crowd. But they still did their hanging out and partying. Again, Gwen being elevated to female lead meant that she was now in the dramatic scenes. The same exact thing happened with MJ. With ASM #151, MJ was pissed off with Peter for leaving her during JJJ's party, etc. etc.

It's only when her father got introduced that she then became "daddy's little girl" and then, once he was killed, her behavior seemed eerily similar Betty Brant when Peter was dating her, in that she loved Peter but couldn't stand Spider-Man because she blamed him for the loss of a loved one.

But that aspect didn't last very long. Capt. Stacy died in ASM #90. By #98 her blaming Spidey had dissipated and really never came up again. Stan was simply moving along a reasonable dramatic arc. It's just that Gerry Conway didn't know what to do next.

This is not meant to disparage Gwen, here, but rather to show that a lot of nostalgia for Gwen Stacy by other writers essentially clouded their perception on who she really was, projecting their own fantasies of their ideal dream girl onto her rather than really understanding who she was as a character and that their reason to project qualities onto her might be a result of the fact that she was underdeveloped as a character. That's another consequence that resulted from her death, as well.

First of all, the same thing has happened with MJ. In all these 40 years of her existence, what flaws has she been presented with? Some flightiness, annoyance at Peter's life as Spidey and smoking. And when she was "killed" we were presented with the same idealized flashbacks as with Gwen. Like I said- it isn't Gwen- it's how comics are made.

I chalk that up to Len Wein wanting to play it safe after Conway, although there are a couple of times where it's suggested Peter and MJ have a pretty physical relationship albeit with nothing explicit given the Comics Code Authority.

The thing is, that as with Gwen, after The Chase is concluded, things simmer down. But unlike Gwen, Peter and MJ have hardly any drama with them. MJ really does nothing at all in those years. My point is that despite what a fantastic character we're told MJ is, this isn't reflected in the writing. Why is it that so little has been done with her over the last 4 decades? Even now in the current comics it's back to The Chase.

Also, Marv Wolfman, I believe, intentionally had Peter propose marriage to Mary Jane for the express purpose of having the two of them split up--not to mention introduce the whole subplot of Peter being tempted to rekindle a romance with Betty despite the fact that she was still legally married to Ned Leeds. Also, it's very evident that another reason Wolfman did so was it was clear he had plans to further explore MJ as a character. It was he, after all, who first revealed that MJ's parents were divorced and that this was partly the reason why she was afraid to marry Peter and tended to shy away from serious relationships--something which only got followed up on by Tom Deflaco years later.

If Wolfman intended to further explore MJ, why didn't he? And there's clearly an inconcistancy here. Back during Clone saga 1, MJ was up in arms, fighting for Peter against Gwen's clone. Then suddenly she isn't interested in a serious relationship? Makes no sense. And Wolfman did nothing with her character but gradually fade her out. Since the relationship with Betty went no where either, it clearly wasn't the case that this was the reason.

Truth is, During Len Wein's run he was really only interested in the adventure aspects of Spidey's life. The personal stuff took a back-BACK SEAT. Then from Wolfman's run through the start of Stern's Marvel didn't know what to do with Spidey's personal life. The writing in that area was clumsy and stagnant. The real problem is that almost no writers since Stan has had a clear vision of who Peter Parker is. Whereas Stan developed relationships the writers since have simply tossed them in as something between fight scenes. This is why the relationship and marriage to MJ seemed like simply a gimmick. Something tossed in rather than something Peter and MJ developed into.

Not to mention all of Peter's girlfriends.

Exactly. Why is it that Gwen and MJ are the only girlfiends that stand-out? The only other would be Black Cat and only because of her overt sexuality.

Perhaps there is some of this, sure. But there's no denying that Stan did always intend for Gwen to be Peter's girlfriend when he introduced her, and Mary Jane was also a popular supporting character, especially since there was a whole mystery built-up about what she looked like (remember she was introduced before Gwen), Romita's "Face it Tiger, You Hit the Jackpot!" panel at the end of issue #42, and her personality as a happy-go-lucky party girl (which of course certainly was intended as comic relief).

I'm not denying the MJ was popular. Hell, I love the character. But to say the she was more popular than Gwen or vice-versa isn't true. Folks weren't abandoning the books because Peter wasn't with MJ.

And by the way, sales were already declining BEFORE Gwen was killed:

1967--361,663
1968--373,303
1969--372,352
1970--322,195
1971--307,550
1972--288,379
1973--273,204 -- year Gwen Stacy Died
1974--288,232 the exact issue Gwen was brought back
1975--273,773
1976--282,159
1977--281,860
1978--258,156

http://www.comichron.com/titlespotlights/amazingspiderman.html

And look at that! Sales actually started going UP from the period between 1973 to 1974. So that actually suggests Gwen death DIDN'T drive readers away but actually had the opposite effect.

SAN- take a look at the period when sales jumped so significantly- that would be #144. And who returns in that issue?

Sales were indeed going down after Stan left. And we know that Gwen was killed in part to boost sales. My point is that it not only did not work as sales continued to fall after her death- but if indeed MJ was more popular- why didn't sales pick-up after she became the book's female lead? After The Clone Saga, sales dropped again.

And, if I remember correctly, some of that fan mail was also talking about how something--ANYTHING--needed to be done with Gwen, as they were getting sick and tired of the whole business of Peter not telling her he was Spider-Man and her being angry at him over some misunderstanding.

Of course fans wanted SOMETHING done. They've also wanted SOMETHING done with MJ. It's just the choices made. Peter and Gwen had been together for a good six years by the time of her death. It was time for something new. But there were many other options aside from Marriage and Death.

I agree that he was young and probably had little experience. But certainly, he had enough talent to actually land the job of being a comic book writer despite his youth and inexperience, so he must have been doing something right.

I'm not saying he wasn't good. Like I said, ASM#121-122 are classic. But relationships weren't his stong-suit. Which is why all he did was have Peter and MJ engage in the Chase. He left when actually having to deal with their relationship became an issue. If he were as good as Stan and developing a relationship he could have done things to infuse Peter and Gwen's relationship with some juice.

 

[stillanerd]

Or, if she was given as much publishing time as MJ and there was a huge publicity campaign around Gwen and Peter's wedding- and if every reader whose picked up the comic since 1987 knew Gwen as Peter's wife/love interest, she'd be linked to Peter just as Lois Lane is linked to Superman.

Point is, it's all just speculation. Had she lived, there was no guarantee she would be considered the "Lois Lane" of Spider-Man or not. However, with her death, her legacy was ensured.

I've always said that despite my not liking the results, ASM #121-122 are great comics. And while yes, they are a watershed moment in both Spidey and comic book history- So what, really? It's a one-time thing that neither changed Spidey or comics. Yes we were introduced to an era of darker heroes (Punisher, Wolverine, etc.) but ultimately comic books didn't reflect Gwen's death. Popular characters were and still only rarely are killed off- and an unfortuante result of the Goblin's death is the reversal of "final" deaths. The Goblin was the first major villain we SAW die (No explosion without a body or fall into the abyss that were later explained as lucky escapes.) We saw the Goblin die. Felt the finality of it. But of course were told years later it didn't happen. So the event of these issues only ushered in the total meanlinglessness of comic book deaths, as we see in current Spidey.

Agreed. It's also one of the reasons why I really didn't like Marvel bringing back Norman Osborn because it diminished the impact of that story.

You didn't look at the issues...

I did actually. And guess what, you're analysis is still wrong.

This is only because all we ever get of her over the last near-40 years are quick flashbacks of how much Peter loved her and that she died. If we were presented with actual stories featuring her during the period when characters were allowed to be more flawed and explicitly presented (And if she had some good writing of course) this wouldn't be the case. (Excluding Sin's Past of course).

Or like Spider-Man: Blue.

Okay- this is way too much of a generalization. Now, granted I agree that Gwen's first appearance was a rather b****** introduction. Why? Because Gwen is only looking for an ego-boost, and when Peter doesn't give it, she get ticked off at him. But this was as much to be presented as "Parker luck" as Gwen being a b*****. Obviously we were being presented with "The Chase" aspect of the relationship. The Will-they/Won't they part that always makes for fan excitement. They were also establishing Gwen as a gal with gumption. Betty became a wear on Peter due to her squeemishishness about Spider-Man. So Gwen was being shown to have some backbone. As for her feelings about Peter she knew why she liked him. She could sense the strength within him. She was just annoyed that he was constantly blowing her off.

That's certainly what was going on with Gwen, no question--when Steve Ditko was illustrated and co-plotting the books. Once he left, however, Gwen's personality changed. She was no longer confrontational towards Peter; if anything, she became more reserved and had LESS of a backbone.

As far as the post-MJ stuff- it isn't as if MJ would have had an exclusive on either partying or dressing sexy. MOST young girls at that time dressed that way and went hanging out (Not wanting to be considered "square") Before MJ's intro Gwen was in fact having parties and invited Peter to them. But of course, his life as Spidey drove a wedge in that. And, of course, once Gwen and Peter became an item, the focus was more on them alone than being in the crowd. But they still did their hanging out and partying. Again, Gwen being elevated to female lead meant that she was now in the dramatic scenes. The same exact thing happened with MJ. With ASM #151, MJ was pissed off with Peter for leaving her during JJJ's party, etc. etc.

Except, by doing so, she's presented as being all too similar to Mary Jane in terms of partying and dressing sexy--especially if she didn't show those characteristics before. One could suggest that Stan and Romita, rather than relying on the strength of Gwen's character, showed Gwen partying and dressing sexy in a similar manner as Mary Jane in an attempt to convince readers that she was the better match for Peter. Notice that it was AFTER Peter and Gwen got together we never saw Gwen portrayed in that way again.

But that aspect didn't last very long. Capt. Stacy died in ASM #90. By #98 her blaming Spidey had dissipated and really never came up again. Stan was simply moving along a reasonable dramatic arc. It's just that Gerry Conway didn't know what to do next.

But if you think about it, the death of Captain Stacy was similar to another beloved relative of one of Peter's girlfriends--Betty Brant's brother Bennett, who was also killed--while acting heroically--in a story involving Doctor Octopus and the result was the girlfriend blaming Spider-Man for the death of her relative. The differences are obvious, such as Bennet was Betty's brother and a gambler, while Captain Stacy was a retired police officer and Gwen's father, but they are still similar stories. And the pattern, like both stories, that Peter felt he could never tell Gwen he was Spider-Man because he feared she would blame him for her father's death, just like he couldn't tell Betty because he feared she would blame him for her brother's death. One could say that, because Captain Stacy died, Peter's relationship with Gwen could have been doomed to fail just like his relationship with Betty and for similar reasons.

First of all, the same thing has happened with MJ. In all these 40 years of her existence, what flaws has she been presented with? Some flightiness, annoyance at Peter's life as Spidey and smoking. And when she was "killed" we were presented with the same idealized flashbacks as with Gwen. Like I said- it isn't Gwen- it's how comics are made.

The thing is, that as with Gwen, after The Chase is concluded, things simmer down. But unlike Gwen, Peter and MJ have hardly any drama with them. MJ really does nothing at all in those years. My point is that despite what a fantastic character we're told MJ is, this isn't reflected in the writing. Why is it that so little has been done with her over the last 4 decades? Even now in the current comics it's back to The Chase.

Hmm, what flaws does MJ have other than the ones you mentioned? Aside from the fact that she has a tendency to escape from emotionally difficult situations by trying to go out and have fun, by acting superficial in order to keep others from knowing the real her, and maybe being a bit too sarcastic with her zany comments, I really can't think of any. Oh, and nothing done with her over the last 4 decades? I suppose having it be revealed that she came from a broken home, abandoned her sister in a time of need which gave her a tremendous sense of guilt, that despite her tendency to run whenever problems arose chose to stay with Peter to comfort him after Gwen died, fell in love with Peter despite her own misgivings, revealed to Peter that she knew he was Spider-Man, became his wife (until that was retconed), almost had a child, and learned not to stand by and do nothing when someone needed help based on Peter's example. Nothing done with her, huh?

Although, I do agree it all depends upon what the writers want to do with these characters.

If Wolfman intended to further explore MJ, why didn't he? And there's clearly an inconcistancy here. Back during Clone saga 1, MJ was up in arms, fighting for Peter against Gwen's clone. Then suddenly she isn't interested in a serious relationship? Makes no sense. And Wolfman did nothing with her character but gradually fade her out. Since the relationship with Betty went no where either, it clearly wasn't the case that this was the reason.

Sure it does. Conway established that Mary Jane was falling in love with Peter, but that she didn't want to because she was more comfortable being Peter's friend. It's only when Gwen came back that she decided to fight for Peter. However, being in a relationship is one thing, but marriage is quite another, and Wolfman, based on MJ prior characterization, made MJ panic and duck out of Peter's proposal due to her fear of commitment. In issue #185, he makes it clear that MJ was still in love with Peter via a thought balloon and the way she was snipping at Betty reminding her--and Peter--that Betty was still married. He also, in issue #191, was the first to reveal WHY she rejected Peter because she was afraid what happened to her parents might happen to her. And, even though Wolfman wasn't writing the series, MJ was still making appearances in Spectacular Spider-Man. Wolfman clearly was laying the groundwork for her character, just one of many subplots he was working on, but once he left the book, most of that stuff either was set aside or unsatisfactorily wrapped up (such as the Jonah having a nervous breakdown subplot and Peter at the Daily Globe subplot).

Truth is, During Len Wein's run he was really only interested in the adventure aspects of Spidey's life. The personal stuff took a back-BACK SEAT. Then from Wolfman's run through the start of Stern's Marvel didn't know what to do with Spidey's personal life. The writing in that area was clumsy and stagnant. The real problem is that almost no writers since Stan has had a clear vision of who Peter Parker is. Whereas Stan developed relationships the writers since have simply tossed them in as something between fight scenes.

Agreed.

This is why the relationship and marriage to MJ seemed like simply a gimmick. Something tossed in rather than something Peter and MJ developed into.

Not to mention to coordinate Peter and MJ's wedding in the newspaper strip--and Peter and MJ getting married was Stan Lee's own idea in the first place.

I'm not denying the MJ was popular. Hell, I love the character. But to say the she was more popular than Gwen or vice-versa isn't true. Folks weren't abandoning the books because Peter wasn't with MJ.

Neither were they with Gwen.

SAN- take a look at the period when sales jumped so significantly- that would be #144. And who returns in that issue?

Sales were indeed going down after Stan left. And we know that Gwen was killed in part to boost sales. My point is that it not only did not work as sales continued to fall after her death- but if indeed MJ was more popular- why didn't sales pick-up after she became the book's female lead? After The Clone Saga, sales dropped again.

Take a look again and you'll see why, with all due respect, you're slightly incorrect. You have to go from that issue's filing date to the last filing date in order to get the what the comics average sales for that year were. Also, you cannot count the issue in which the statement appears in since they wouldn't have included the sales total for an issue that was just released on the market. So, that gives us the following

1967--361,663 (issues #47 to #58)
1968--373,303 (issues #59 to #70)
1969--372,352 (issues #71 to #82)
1970--322,195 (issues #83 to #94)
1971--307,550 (issues #95 to #109)
1972--288,379 (issues #110 to #117)
1973--273,204 (issues #118 to #131)
1974--288,232 (issues #132 to #143)
1975--273,773 (issues #144 to #154)
1976--282,159 (issues #155 to #166)
1977--281,860 (issues #167 to #177)
1978--258,156 (issues #178 to #194)

Now, you could say that, yes, sales went down in 1973, but they were already going down BEFORE Gwen Stacy was killed off. And if Gwen's death caused sales to go down, then why in the following year did the sales start going up BEFORE she was even brought back into the comics. As you said, issue #144 was when Gwen--or at least her clone--came back, yet all through that year prior to her "return" the sales for the comic were going UP not down and BEFORE issue #144. If anything, it looks like Gwen's "return" not to mention the departure of Gerry Conway, caused a momentary dip in sales.

Of course fans wanted SOMETHING done. They've also wanted SOMETHING done with MJ. It's just the choices made. Peter and Gwen had been together for a good six years by the time of her death. It was time for something new. But there were many other options aside from Marriage and Death.

Yes, but you could say it was somewhat limited given that they kept Peter in college.

I'm not saying he wasn't good. Like I said, ASM#121-122 are classic. But relationships weren't his stong-suit. Which is why all he did was have Peter and MJ engage in the Chase. He left when actually having to deal with their relationship became an issue. If he were as good as Stan and developing a relationship he could have done things to infuse Peter and Gwen's relationship with some juice.

Well, I thought Conway did want to do more plans with Spider-Man prior to his leaving the title for other assignments, but I could be mistaken on that.

 

[Themanofbat]

Shut up!!!

 

[stillanerd]

Shut up!!!

LOL! Okay, you just made my day with that! t:

 

[Dragon]

Point is, it's all just speculation. Had she lived, there was no guarantee she would be considered the "Lois Lane" of Spider-Man or not. However, with her death, her legacy was ensured.

It's more likely than not. With these characters, simply being around for a long time creates a legacy.

Agreed. It's also one of the reasons why I really didn't like Marvel bringing back Norman Osborn because it diminished the impact of that story.

As well as removing any drama from any death.

I did actually. And guess what, you're analysis is still wrong.

Actually both of our analysis is wrong. But my point is still correct.

Or like Spider-Man: Blue.

Blue was a well-written story that gave a good insight into the relationsip.

That's certainly what was going on with Gwen, no question--when Steve Ditko was illustrated and co-plotting the books. Once he left, however, Gwen's personality changed. She was no longer confrontational towards Peter; if anything, she became more reserved and had LESS of a backbone.

No, she simply didn't fight with Peter over meaningless things. Gwen was constantly displaying her backbone. Getting in Peter's face when thought he attacked her dad. Wanting to face the consequences when her dad was accused of theft. Slugging the guy who called Peter a coward. Standing up to Spidey after her Dad's death. Wanting to face danger with Peter during the Vietnam story. Travelling with Pete to the Savage Land.

Except, by doing so, she's presented as being all too similar to Mary Jane in terms of partying and dressing sexy--especially if she didn't show those characteristics before.

Really? So MJ is the only woman on Earth that can be sexy? Any healthy woman has her own sexuality to her. Gwen was a beautiful, self-confident girl. She'd have her own unique sexuality. Are you saying you've never seen a woman who dresses conservatively on a day-to-day basis then throws on something hot for a party? It was simply another aspect to her character. We'd never seen Peter dance before either. Does that mean he can't dance?

One could suggest that Stan and Romita, rather than relying on the strength of Gwen's character, showed Gwen partying and dressing sexy in a similar manner as Mary Jane in an attempt to convince readers that she was the better match for Peter. Notice that it was AFTER Peter and Gwen got together we never saw Gwen portrayed in that way again.[/qote]

First off, in the early stories MJ doesn't dress particularly sexy. The difference between her and Gwen is that MJ dressed in a loud "Mod" style whereas Gwen was shown in more conservative styles since she was just going to school. As I mentioned above, then when they were going to Flash's party, Gwen is wearing a pretty sexy outfit. This isn't in anyway a betrayal of her established character. Look at a film like "The Nutty Professor" from that time. Stella Stevens' charactrer is shown the same way. During school she dresses down, but when she goes hanging out she pulls out all the stops.

As for after Peter and Gwen get together, nothing changes. When they go out on a date see (ASMs 59, 76, 82 etc.) Gwen dresses hot. And she's certainly shimmying at her own birthday party. I don't get where you seen any difference.And it wasn't some covert plan on Stan's part. A woman trying different styles and so forth is pretty normal, especially when she's trying to win a man over. And the time that Gwen first wore her hair in bangs, MJ-style Harry teased her about it. So it was all out in the open.

But if you think about it, the death of Captain Stacy was similar to another beloved relative of one of Peter's girlfriends--Betty Brant's brother Bennett, who was also killed--while acting heroically--in a story involving Doctor Octopus and the result was the girlfriend blaming Spider-Man for the death of her relative. The differences are obvious, such as Bennet was Betty's brother and a gambler, while Captain Stacy was a retired police officer and Gwen's father, but they are still similar stories. And the pattern, like both stories, that Peter felt he could never tell Gwen he was Spider-Man because he feared she would blame him for her father's death, just like he couldn't tell Betty because he feared she would blame him for her brother's death. One could say that, because Captain Stacy died, Peter's relationship with Gwen could have been doomed to fail just like his relationship with Betty and for similar reasons.

Not at all. For one thing Betty soon after admits that Bennett's death is not Spidey's fault. Her problem is that she doesn't want Peter engaging in any sort of dangerous activity. She even begins having nightmares about Peter revealing himself to be Spider-Man. It's for this reason that Peter realizes that he and Betty can't be together.

With Gwen, she begins to question her assumptions about Spidey while in London. And she never really brings up accusing Spidey after her return. She clearly doesn't have Betty's squeamishness about Peter being in dangerous spots, or for that matter being in those dangerous spots with Peter (Savage land arc, Vietnam arc). She also says to Peter that her love for him is stronger than her hatred of Spidey- which suggests that had Peter been honest with her, she'd have likely given him the benefit of the doubt. Sure, she'd have a natural reaction of being pissed off. But she would have realistically come around.

Hmm, what flaws does MJ have other than the ones you mentioned? Aside from the fact that she has a tendency to escape from emotionally difficult situations by trying to go out and have fun, by acting superficial in order to keep others from knowing the real her, and maybe being a bit too sarcastic with her zany comments, I really can't think of any. Oh, and nothing done with her over the last 4 decades? I suppose having it be revealed that she came from a broken home, abandoned her sister in a time of need which gave her a tremendous sense of guilt, that despite her tendency to run whenever problems arose chose to stay with Peter to comfort him after Gwen died, fell in love with Peter despite her own misgivings, revealed to Peter that she knew he was Spider-Man, became his wife (until that was retconed), almost had a child, and learned not to stand by and do nothing when someone needed help based on Peter's example. Nothing done with her, huh?

MJ got over much of those issues before she and Peter got married. So that leaves alot of time open.

But your list there brings up my problem with MJ's handling. Although it isn't just MJ. Its again how ALL superhero-love interests are written. But also why I maintain that Gwen was the best choice for Peter.

The points you bring up are all far too mundane. If the book were, "Peter Parker: Boy Photographer" , then those plots might have been dramatic enough. But in Spidey's world, they don't stand out. To remain interesting, the girlfriend's life has to be nearly as dynamic as the hero's. This is why the super model stuff always annoyed me. Aside from giving fanboys a lift because "Peter sleeps with a super-model!!!!!" It meant nothing. They needed to do something with MJ's life to give it some punch.

Again, Stan knew best. He would inject the girlfriend's life with similar drama. Gwen's dad being a cop and getting killed provided the basis for tons of drama between Peter and Gwen. Whereas MJ's troubled home only makes for a Lifetime movie. And currently we're back to the same nonsense with so much focus on MJ's life as a celebrity. Again it makes me glad these guys haven't brought Gwen back. But knowing Quesada, they'll likely get around to it if he thinks it will piss people off.

Sure it does. Conway established that Mary Jane was falling in love with Peter, but that she didn't want to because she was more comfortable being Peter's friend. It's only when Gwen came back that she decided to fight for Peter. However, being in a relationship is one thing, but marriage is quite another, and Wolfman, based on MJ prior characterization, made MJ panic and duck out of Peter's proposal due to her fear of commitment. In issue #185, he makes it clear that MJ was still in love with Peter via a thought balloon and the way she was snipping at Betty reminding her--and Peter--that Betty was still married. He also, in issue #191, was the first to reveal WHY she rejected Peter because she was afraid what happened to her parents might happen to her. And, even though Wolfman wasn't writing the series, MJ was still making appearances in Spectacular Spider-Man. Wolfman clearly was laying the groundwork for her character, just one of many subplots he was working on, but once he left the book, most of that stuff either was set aside or unsatisfactorily wrapped up (such as the Jonah having a nervous breakdown subplot and Peter at the Daily Globe subplot).

Conway established MJ not wanting to fall in love with Peter early on. And he moved beyond that in having her fall in love with him (Again, The Chase). But once MJ stated that she was fighting for Peter, that in and of itself is a commitment. Especially since she was fighting with Peter's love returned from the grave. Do you really think MJ would have stood between Peter and Gwen only to ensure that she has a steady date for Saturday night? So the flip-flop about commitment makes no sense in light of what they'd been through. Granted, they weren't ready for marriage. But her breaking up with Peter under the excuse that she wanted to be free to do other guys was pretty shady. She could have told him she wanted to be with him, but wasn't ready for marriage. And if Wolfman was planning to do something with MJ he took his time. There was a good 8 motnth stretch where NOTHING happens with her. If she was important to his plans for Spidey he didn't show it.

Not to mention to coordinate Peter and MJ's wedding in the newspaper strip--and Peter and MJ getting married was Stan Lee's own idea in the first place.

Trying to match continuity to the newspaper strip was a mistake. There was no other continuity connections.

Take a look again and you'll see why, with all due respect, you're slightly incorrect. You have to go from that issue's filing date to the last filing date in order to get the what the comics average sales for that year were. Also, you cannot count the issue in which the statement appears in since they wouldn't have included the sales total for an issue that was just released on the market. So, that gives us the following

1967--361,663 (issues #47 to #58)
1968--373,303 (issues #59 to #70)
1969--372,352 (issues #71 to #82)
1970--322,195 (issues #83 to #94)
1971--307,550 (issues #95 to #109)
1972--288,379 (issues #110 to #117)
1973--273,204 (issues #118 to #131)
1974--288,232 (issues #132 to #143)
1975--273,773 (issues #144 to #154)
1976--282,159 (issues #155 to #166)
1977--281,860 (issues #167 to #177)
1978--258,156 (issues #178 to #194)

Now, you could say that, yes, sales went down in 1973, but they were already going down BEFORE Gwen Stacy was killed off. And if Gwen's death caused sales to go down, then why in the following year did the sales start going up BEFORE she was even brought back into the comics. As you said, issue #144 was when Gwen--or at least her clone--came back, yet all through that year prior to her "return" the sales for the comic were going UP not down and BEFORE issue #144. If anything, it looks like Gwen's "return" not to mention the departure of Gerry Conway, caused a momentary dip in sales.

We both read this wrong. The issue the info is printed in is of no consequence. The important thing is the filing date, which reflects the end of the Fiscal Year. So it isn't the issues you've listed. It would be the issues released between September and August. Now, having been buying comics off the rack back in those days, I know that ASMs 132 & 144 were released between January and February of '74 & '75 (I bought my first issue of Spidey, #127 just after school started in the fall of '73. Memories..). The yearly listing would have likely encompassed ASMs 117-128 & 129-140. So the spike was likely due to the Harry-Goblin story arc which ran from 126-137. But my point is still made, since- again- the reason for killing Gwen was increased sales, which didn't happen. And- sales didn't pick up because of the pairing of Peter and MJ either.

Yes, but you could say it was somewhat limited given that they kept Peter in college.

Only as limited as their imaginations. I could run off a bunch of ideas. But I'm planning on doing my own little fan-fic thing, so I'll save them for that.

Well, I thought Conway did want to do more plans with Spider-Man prior to his leaving the title for other assignments, but I could be mistaken on that.

Spidey was Marvel's top-selling book. If he'd had more to offer, I'm sure he would have.

 

[Spider-Gnome]

Good points both, stillanerd and Dragon, though I side more with stillanerd. Most of your points I do remember. And thanks for reminding me why I liked and believed the relationship of Pete & MJ in the 70's & 80's, stillanerd.

And I'm not a blind MJ supporter. I started collecting the comic around the Death of Gwen Stacy (it was the 2nd issue of ASM I ever got), so I may be a little bias. I was disappointed when MJ rejected that first proposal, but I did "move on" and began to root for Black Cat. Of course I was disappointed that she turned out to be a whack (loved Spidey, hated Pete). So I rooted for Pete & MJ again, so I was happy with the proposal. I admit the Wedding came too fast and they blew an opportunity to have an engagement era.

And remembering Doc Ock's role in the deaths of Betty's brother and Capt. Stacy, Ock came this close to being Spider-Man's ultimate arch villian. But, as stated, the Death of Gwen Stacy cemented Gobby.

 

[Ugfugly]

I distinctly remember an interview with Stan Lee saying that he had always envisioned Peter ending up with Gwen but they killed her off while he was on hiatus or vacation. I'd have to dig that up somewhere.

I grew up with Mary Jane as his true love though so she's always going to be my favourite. I even had her swimsuit poster in my room lol

 

[Kirk Langstrom]

Good points both, stillanerd and Dragon, though I side more with stillanerd. Most of your points I do remember. And thanks for reminding me why I liked and believed the relationship of Pete & MJ in the 70's & 80's, stillanerd.

And I'm not a blind MJ supporter. I started collecting the comic around the Death of Gwen Stacy (it was the 2nd issue of ASM I ever got), so I may be a little bias. I was disappointed when MJ rejected that first proposal, but I did "move on" and began to root for Black Cat. Of course I was disappointed that she turned out to be a whack (loved Spidey, hated Pete). So I rooted for Pete & MJ again, so I was happy with the proposal. I admit the Wedding came too fast and they blew an opportunity to have an engagement era.

And remembering Doc Ock's role in the deaths of Betty's brother and Capt. Stacy, Ock came this close to being Spider-Man's ultimate arch villian. But, as stated, the Death of Gwen Stacy cemented Gobby.

Spider-Gnome and CaptainStacy: Seperated at birth?

 

[Spider-Gnome]

Spider-Gnome and CaptainStacy: Seperated at birth?

I'm telling you, Cap, when I first started lurking on these boards around 2002, I never felt the need to post because you always seemed to post what I thought! (It was OMD that got me so mad that I finally signed up here to join the mayhem).

Seeing the thread where you posted the ASM cover from the month you were born made it down right eerie!

 

[Kirk Langstrom]

I'm telling you, Cap, when I first started lurking on these boards around 2002, I never felt the need to post because you always seemed to post what I thought! (It was OMD that got me so mad that I finally signed up here to join the mayhem).

Seeing the thread where you posted the ASM cover from the month you were born made it down right eerie!

Hey, you never know! Stranger things have happened!

 

[JJJ's Ulcer]

Peter loves Mephisto more than MJ and Gwen combined.

 

[conjob_89]

Peter loves Mephisto more than MJ and Gwen combined.

In other words, he's gay for Joe Quesada.