Gwen vs. MJ

[radren]

MJ must die, so that I can sing "Ding Dong the wicked witch is dead"

 

[Chase]

Most people don't remember or were not born yet to know that in the early 70's when Gwen was killed, there emerged two camps of opinion. Most were outraged at Gwen being killed because she had endeared herself to so many readers and fo rsome they wished MJ had been the one sacrificed. Ultimately she was killed off because writer Gerry Conway considered MJ to be more dynamic and didn't think the Gwen Stacy character held much promise for future development. Thus began the debate concerning MJ and Gwen that, thanks to Sam Raimi, has been essentially raised from the dead in present times.
Honestly, I completely believe MJ will be killed off. Why not? In many ways Raimi has given her the Gwen Stacy treatment and it seems likely that Harry would gravitate to her to seek out his ultimate revenge not only on Spidey but also Peter. Remember, he believes Spiderman killed his father and Peter essentially took MJ away from him. Now that he knows Peter and Spiderman are the same wouldn't he seek her death to satisfy that rage and do it as the Green Goblin in tribute to his dad?
From a business standpoint it makes sense too, because the studio can bring in a new female lead of major interest but pay her on a different salary from Dunst. Plus it satisfys all of us old readers who always wanted to see Peter live happily ever-after with Gwen. I think it's brilliant move on Raimi's part. I love the series so far and can't wait to see what surprises Raimi holds for three. Another instant classic in the making!!!

Exactly, well put my friend.

In the movies Gwen is MJ, and Gwen (casting wise - outside of the movies) seems to be a good way of continuing a romantic and important theme while at the same time solving the problem of having no Dunst in Sm4, while potentially keeping Mcguire and Raimi (and maybe Franco, depending on his character arc in 3)

People seem to be up in arms that Mj is dying and not Gwen, but swap the names and Raimi if that is the plan, is going to bring about a complete franchise comic parallel that I personally can't wait for.

Imagine Harry as the improved and fan pleasing green goblin, bringing round a narrative and character arc at the bridge from sm1.

Wait for that neck to snap and Sm3 to exceed all expectations.

The announcement of Gwen to me was better than the villain casting, as now we have a good idea of the character side of the picture, where as we are all expecting action wise the film to be (at the worst) Sm2 standard.



I hope so anyway.

 

[Doctor Octopus]

Yes now we're going to have GweMJ and Gwen.That'll be fun

 

[Chase]

It will If that neck snaps.

I don't think I've never wanted anything more cinematically.

 

[Justin]

Personally I like Dunst and think she has done her job well enough so far. I still think MJ should die. Her character is more like the Gwen character then it is like the MJ character. It doesnt matter that Peter ends up with a character named MJ in the comic, in the movie the character with that name has been presented like the comic's Gwen character.

To bring the movie more in line with the source material, the best thing to do would be to kill the "Movie MJ" and introduce the "Movie Gwen", who could be more like the real MJ. If you want to say that the movie doesnt have to be brought more in-line with the comic, then why worry that Peter doesnt end up with "Movie MJ." Its more important to the Peter/Spiderman character that his first love is killed, and that she dies with him being unable to save her than it is that he end up marrying a character named MJ.

The death of the Gwen character in the comic was the most important event in the character development of Peter/Spiderman. Killing the new Gwen character, even if there is a build-up of a couple sequels, still wont have the same effect as killing "Movie MJ" would. Killing "Movie MJ" will "feel" more like the comic story. If you end up killing "Movie Gwen" it will feel rushed or forced.

 

[the Firestarter]

i don't know if i like that scenario. i like happy endings & would like peter to wind up happily ever after with mj.

 

[Justin]

i don't know if i like that scenario. i like happy endings & would like peter to wind up happily ever after with mj.

Do you want them to both live? I dont think that would work. It is the MOST important event in the development of the Spiderman/Peter character. Leaving them both alive would be like a movie based on Custer's Last Stand and letting Colonel Custer live through the battle.

If you mean letting "Movie Gwen" die, I dont know why the ending wouldn't be just as happy with "Movie Gwen" marrying Peter and "Movie MJ" dying.

 

[TheVileOne]

Its hilarious. You FOOLS constantly bash Raimi for being unfaithful to the comics. You can't be more unfaithful to the comics than killing Mary Jane, but you all want it to happen.

You hypocrits make me sick.

 

[TheSlag]

Its hilarious. You FOOLS constantly bash Raimi for being unfaithful to the comics. You can't be more unfaithful to the comics than killing Mary Jane, but you all want it to happen.

You hypocrits make me sick.

And "Literalists" make me sick.

Killing MJ, Peter's Love of His Life, WOULD BE being faithful to the comics.

We want faithfulness to the comics, not a word for word retelling. Faithfulness to the characters, and to the stories.

 

[stillanerd]

Its hilarious. You FOOLS constantly bash Raimi for being unfaithful to the comics. You can't be more unfaithful to the comics than killing Mary Jane, but you all want it to happen.

You hypocrits make me sick.

Right on.

Besides, has it occured to anybody that maybe the reason why they'll have a "Spider-Man 4" is because "Spider-Man 3's" story was so big that the filmmakers decided to spilt the movie into two parts, kind of like what happened with the sequels to Back to the Future and The Matrix? That way, Maguire, Dunst, and Franco still make their three film committment, only the third film is divided into parts and one is shown in 2007, followed by the sequel in 2008 or later that same year.

EDIT: for me its not about literalism, its about appealing to the movie going public. Fans of the movie will be really turned off if the MJ character dies after Peter has been saving her life and trying to win her over all this time. Heck, the Spider-Man films main story has been "about a girl" and if she dies, that's the end of the story. There's no need to make anymore films after that. Besides, if Spider-Man 3 and 4 are being filmed simultaneously, then I imagine 3 will end on a cliffhanger, making fans wonder whether MJ really is dead or not before the next one is released.

 

[TheVileOne]

And "Literalists" make me sick.

Killing MJ, Peter's Love of His Life, WOULD BE being faithful to the comics.

It simply doesn't work to kill Mary Jane after the last 2 movies.

Killing Gwen would've been faithful to the comics, but they didn't go down that route. Killing MJ wouldn't.

We want faithfulness to the comics, not a word for word retelling. Faithfulness to the characters, and to the stories.

Yup and killing MJ is not faithfulness to the character since it NEVER HAPPENED! BLEH

 

[Justin]

Its hilarious. You FOOLS constantly bash Raimi for being unfaithful to the comics. You can't be more unfaithful to the comics than killing Mary Jane, but you all want it to happen.

You hypocrits make me sick.

I would like it if the "Movie MJ" character was named Gwen. That would fix the whole thing. Currently it is MORE FAITHFUL to the source material to kill "Movie MJ", than it is to introduce a new character named Gwen and kill her. How would killing Gwen bring the "Movie MJ" character and Peter closer together and be the begining of their romantic involvement with each other? The easiest fix to the situation is to kill "Movie MJ".

It would also solve the problem of Dunst wanting to leave. Either that or she will end up holding one of the sequel hostage for more money, not that she would actually want the money she just wouldnt want to go on with the series. So you end up with an earliy end to the Spiderman series or a recast MJ.

"Movie MJ" is Gwen, or at least closer to Gwen than MJ, and "Movie Gwen" could very well be closer to MJ. "What is in a name?" and all that...

 

[TheSlag]

Right on.

EDIT: for me its not about literalism, its about appealing to the movie going public. Fans of the movie will be really turned off if the MJ character dies after Peter has been saving her life and trying to win her over all this time. Heck, the Spider-Man films main story has been "about a girl" and if she dies, that's the end of the story. There's no need to make anymore films after that. Besides, if Spider-Man 3 and 4 are being filmed simultaneously, then I imagine 3 will end on a cliffhanger, making fans wonder whether MJ really is dead or not before the next one is released.

Funny, but expressing "Right On"... and giving a thumbs-up invalidates your "for me it's not about literalism". Nice try though.

 

[TheSlag]

It simply doesn't work to kill Mary Jane after the last 2 movies.

Killing Gwen would've been faithful to the comics, but they didn't go down that route. Killing MJ wouldn't.

Says who????.... oh yeah... you, Mr. Literalist.

Yup and killing MJ is not faithfulness to the character since it NEVER HAPPENED! BLEH

A literalist, stubborn, and ignorant too. The Trifecta.

 

[TheSlag]

"What is in a name?" and all that...

Obviously... Everything to the literalist crowd.

 

[Justin]

Fans of the movie will be really turned off if the MJ character dies after Peter has been saving her life and trying to win her over all this time.

I dont think they will be as turned off as when MJ is recast. And everyone didnt stop reading the comic when Gwen died. It is very important to the character, and i think that alot of people have alot more loyalty to the Name "MJ" than to the development of the characters.

 

[Spider-Bite]

Personally I like Dunst and think she has done her job well enough so far. I still think MJ should die. Her character is more like the Gwen character then it is like the MJ character. It doesnt matter that Peter ends up with a character named MJ in the comic, in the movie the character with that name has been presented like the comic's Gwen character.

To bring the movie more in line with the source material, the best thing to do would be to kill the "Movie MJ" and introduce the "Movie Gwen", who could be more like the real MJ. If you want to say that the movie doesnt have to be brought more in-line with the comic, then why worry that Peter doesnt end up with "Movie MJ." Its more important to the Peter/Spiderman character that his first love is killed, and that she dies with him being unable to save her than it is that he end up marrying a character named MJ.

The death of the Gwen character in the comic was the most important event in the character development of Peter/Spiderman. Killing the new Gwen character, even if there is a build-up of a couple sequels, still wont have the same effect as killing "Movie MJ" would. Killing "Movie MJ" will "feel" more like the comic story. If you end up killing "Movie Gwen" it will feel rushed or forced.

One of the things I always wondered about is the neck snapping. By this time, isn't spidey kind of experienced at webbing falling people? He should know how to do it without the person's neck snapping. NOt to mention, it's not a rope that comes to the end of it's line and jerks like that. It's a stretchy webline, with a rubber band effect. It should stretch like a bungee cord, and when it pulls back, it's not a sudden "snap!" like an ordinary rope would. For example in the fith with Ock when Ock throws those big pieces of the clock at spider-Man and he catches one with his web, notice the way the web pulls back when it hits the end of it's length. It's not a sudden jerk. It's pulls back in a springy kind of way, exactly how a bungee cord works, which doesn't snap your neck.

When it hits the end of it's length, it slows to a stop(not a sudden stop) and then as it shrinks back to size, it comes back slowly at first, and then faster.

 

[TheSlag]

I dont think they will be as turned off as a recast MJ. And everyone didnt stop reading the comic when Gwen died. It is very important to the character, and i think that alot of people have alot more loyalty to the Name "MJ" than to the development of the characters.

Exactly.

 

[Justin]

One of the things I always wondered about is the neck snapping. By this time, isn't spidey kind of experienced at webbing falling people?

Spiderman about as experienced in the comic, if not more, than he is by this point in the movies. He became Spiderman at 15 and Gwen died when he was in college, and it had to be in his Sophomore year at the earliest because she had gone to Europe for a year. The comic covered alot of time by issue 121. Peter had been Spiderman for several years.

Also there is the whole, "Was it the fall or the sudden stop?" debate.

 

[TheVileOne]

Says who????.... oh yeah... you, Mr. Literalist.





A literalist, stubborn, and ignorant too. The Trifecta.

You obviously have me confused with people such as Doc Ock, Herr Logan, Spider-Jide, Zanos, and numerous others .

 

[Spider-Bite]

Spiderman about as experienced in the comic, if not more, than he is by this point in the movies. He became Spiderman at 15 and Gwen died when he was in college, and it had to be in his Sophomore year at the earliest because she had gone to Europe for a year. The comic covered alot of time by issue 121. Peter had been Spiderman for several years.

Also there is the whole, "Was it the fall or the sudden stop?" debate.

oh yeah. I never actually read that issue. Not even a reprint, just several flashbacks, and it's kind of hard to be a spidey fan without knowing about it. I forgot they never knew if it was the fall or not. Because the web would never bring a sudden stop, it would be a gradual soft stop, befor eyour sprung the other way. I also can't help but think why not save her the way he saved Aunt May when she was falling?

 

[Justin]

For some reason i think it has more of an emotional impact if you dont really know if it was the fall or the sudden stop. How close was he exactly to saving her if it was the fall, if it was the sudden stop then couldnt he have done something to stop that.

I think the whole movie setup could actually help the scene. You expect Gwen to die but never MJ. Even if it was Gwen in the begining you wouldnt get to attached to her character, because you know she is going to eventually die. Even people who didnt read the comic would have found out by now from interviews and preview articles.

People may get upset by MJ's death. Maybe that is why they are really filming them back to back, if they really are, it would be hard for the studio to change MJ's death if they already spent millions on shooting a follow-up to the movie. I think i remember reading that Raimi originally request to film 3&4 at once.

 

[Spider-Bite]

I think the movies will be what you would call semi-back to back. I believe that if they already picked the villains, a large hunk of the pre-production for 4 would be done already. If Sam already knows the story he wants to tell, the script for it could be being written right now. That way when he's done filming #3 6 months from now, one year before it's release, he could then take 6 months with storyboards, and set building. They could easily begin filming #4 3 months before #3 is even released. But I still think they would release #4 two years after 3 is released.

 

[Justin]

I also can't help but think why not save her the way he saved Aunt May when she was falling?

Also, he had the flu i believe. He was reacting badly to an illness (cold? flu? i dont remember) So his reaction time was off, he was not fighting at full strength. It could be that normally he could have webbed her at that distance and not snapped her neck. Maybe he accidentally did something wrong while webbing her, they never made it very clear. The fact that you dont really know exactly what went wrong, and neither does Peter, makes it all the more powerful of a scene.

Now that ive been thinking about it, it really was one of the better written and well thought out death sequences in comic history. Whether it is MJ or Gwen, I can't wait to see the scene on film, and hear the reaction of the general public. Hope they dont screw this up.

 

[Spider-Bite]

Well it definitely added a lot to the comic book.