Plot holes/poor storytelling discussion

[chaseter]

I think there's more power behind a gun that in Wolverine's arms. Maybe if he had Hulk strength or Quiksilver speed he could do that.

Maybe Stryker didn't know if Logan could be decapitated? He and Weapon XI were both experiments, no? Maybe cutting his neck down to the bone might have killed him?

Stryker told Agent Zero to take off his head yes? How do you not know if you can kill someone that you just put adamantium on? Why did they shoot Logan with regular bullets when they knew that only adamantium bullets would work?

Also, Wolverine has power behind him. Did you see how thick the metal door was that he made an X in and then escape? Did you see how easily he ran and cut open the metal doors with the cages? Did you see how easily he chopped the spinning blades of a helicopter? Do you understand how much force is behind an in flight helicopter blade? He cut a porcelian sink with ease, etc...

Wolverine has some massive power.

 

[danoyse]

He was definitely made to seem uncomfortable with air travel in X1 and X2. And perhaps in Wolverine, he was as much uneasy about what he was about to do than he was about being in the air. I wouldn't think mutant healing factors cancel out feelings of apprehension - about more Team X killing and then about finally facing Stryker and whatever else was waiting for him on that island.

However, it has to be said that air sickness isn't a disease that the immune system would be involved with, it's to do with the nervous system sending mixed-up messages.

Also with the air-sickness thing...I thought also that since Logan and Victor pre-dated air travel by quite a few years, it was just something Logan had never gotten used to. He did say something in the first plane scene about 'if we were meant to fly we'd have wings'. It might not have been so bad later because he didn't remember he hated flying that much.

And it wasn't just he barrel-roll in X2, after the chase with the tornadoes, Jean asked everyone if they were OK and Logan was the only one who said no. That part always cracked me up for some reason.

 

[Legion]

Stryker told Agent Zero to take off his head yes?

Stryker likes to talk in metaphor. Remember X2? "I just gave you claws."

How do you not know if you can kill someone that you just put adamantium on?

It wasn't their original intention to kill Logan, did they need to know how to kill Wade and Creed too?

Why did they shoot Logan with regular bullets when they knew that only adamantium bullets would work?

The adamantium bullets were a last ditch effort for Stryker to save his own skin. Remember how Wolverine called out his cowardess in the hospital? Even the adamantium bullets weren't 100%, Stryker had to shoot him several times before one penetrated. and he still had Deadpool, Creed, and Kayla, No need to use all your tricks at once.

Zero was a master marksmen, he should have been able to shoot Logan through his eyes and hit his brain. In the comics Maverick puts a gun against Logan's eye and says "I hope you have adamantium eyelids."

Also, Wolverine has power behind him. Did you see how thick the metal door was that he made an X in and then escape? Did you see how easily he ran and cut open the metal doors with the cages? Did you see how easily he chopped the spinning blades of a helicopter?

None of those things were adamantium. Wolverine can cut through steel like a knife through butter so he says. As far as strength, remember how he was being overpowered by that first soldier in X2 before he popped his claws? He's not much stronger than human in the movies.

Do you understand how much force is behind an in flight helicopter blade? He cut a porcelian sink with ease, etc...

Right the helicoper blades had alot of force that's why Wolverine didn't need to use any, he put his claws up and they did the work for him.

Wolverine has some massive power.

He cut through a sink and radiator with no effort. It didn't have to do with strength, it was the adamantium itself. He wouldn't have been able to do that with his bone claws, that's why he was startled and wrecked the Hudson's bathroom.

 

[chaseter]

Stryker likes to talk in metaphor. Remember X2? "I just gave you claws."

He gave Wolverine claws and he wanted his head to be removed. There is no metaphor.

It wasn't their original intention to kill Logan, did they need to know how to kill Wade and Creed too?

It wasn't their original intent but through wonderful writing, Stryker thinks he can control an angry Logan after he makes him invincible.

The adamantium bullets were a last ditch effort for Stryker to save his own skin. Remember how Wolverine called out his cowardess in the hospital? Even the adamantium bullets weren't 100%, Stryker had to shoot him several times before one penetrated. and he still had Deadpool, Creed, and Kayla, No need to use all your tricks at once.

Stryker was never in danger before Wolverine was after him. He said all of that stuff, which were lies, to get Logan to do what he wants. Why would Stryker be afraid of a mutant killer that is working for him and doing so on his orders?

Stryker shot him twice in the head. Why would adamantium bullets be a last ditch effort? If he has enough to waste on someone to see if the procedure works, I am sure he has enough to make some bullets to give to Agent Zero.

Zero was a master marksmen, he should have been able to shoot Logan through his eyes and hit his brain. In the comics Maverick puts a gun against Logan's eye and says "I hope you have adamantium eyelids."

If he could have, why didn't he?

None of those things were adamantium. Wolverine can cut through steel like a knife through butter so he says. As far as strength, remember how he was being overpowered by that first soldier in X2 before he popped his claws? He's not much stronger than human in the movies.

So if you drop an adamantium made blade on top of steel, it will cut through by itself?

Right the helicoper blades had alot of force that's why Wolverine didn't need to use any, he put his claws up and they did the work for him.

I don't think you understand the physics behind this. How come he had trouble cutting Magento's machine in X1 after Cyclops shot down Magneto? He had to use force to hold the claws there.

He cut through a sink and radiator with no effort. It didn't have to do with strength, it was the adamantium itself. He wouldn't have been able to do that with his bone claws, that's why he was startled and wrecked the Hudson's bathroom.

It has everything to do with strength and force behind it. If it had nothing to do with force, then armor piercing rounds would not exist. Steel swords could not cut another steel sword. It has everything to do with the amount of force behind it.

 

[dark_b]

Stryker likes to talk in metaphor. Remember X2? "I just gave you claws."

but he did gave him claws

 

[Legion]

but he did gave him claws

Did you watch the same movie I did? cuz he was born with claws

 

[chaseter]

I like how you said that Stryker talks in metaphors. Someone needs to rewrite the script with all of his dialogue in metaphor format.

 

[Legion]

He gave Wolverine claws and he wanted his head to be removed. There is no metaphor.

What claws? Logan was born with bone claws, Stryker enhanced them, so it isn't literal. So he wanted Agent Zero to shoot his head off? Cuz his specialty is with guns.

It wasn't their original intent but through wonderful writing, Stryker thinks he can control an angry Logan after he makes him invincible.

When would have been a good time to erase his memory? He can't be sedated he has a super healing powers, the best opportunity would have been when he was closest to death as the procedure was ending. That's what they did but they underestimated his healing factor and heightened senses.

Stryker was never in danger before Wolverine was after him. He said all of that stuff, which were lies, to get Logan to do what he wants. Why would Stryker be afraid of a mutant killer that is working for him and doing so on his orders?

Stryker shot him twice in the head. Why would adamantium bullets be a last ditch effort? If he has enough to waste on someone to see if the procedure works, I am sure he has enough to make some bullets to give to Agent Zero.

Mutants aren't fully understood by humans, that's why there are feared or hated. The mutants that Stryker surrounded himself with are loose canons and could never fully be trusted. At some point they would all get tired of being traitors to their own kind, that's why he needed the mind control. I hope you could see that even CREED, the most loyal of Stryker's team, who willingly capture his own kind eventually joins the BROTHERHOOD and fights for mutant supremacy over mutants.

So the adamantium bullets were just another precaution. Have you read the comics? You know that Weapon X created a robot made of adamantium, that can learn from it's mistakes, creating a new version after the previous was destroyed? This robot was made for the purpose of killing rebelious Weapon X mutants. It raises similar questions though like if they could build robots that can kill their mutants, why have the mutants in the first place?

If he could have, why didn't he?

Gee, well I didn't write the script but I'd probably guess because they wanted Wolverine to make it to the end of the movie. But based on the events of the movie, I'd say Zero took Logan's remarks earlier personal and tried to make him suffer by killing people that helped out. So basically he blew his chance of taking him by surprise and never got another opportunity.

So if you drop an adamantium made blade on top of steel, it will cut through by itself?

Well adamantium doesn't really exist so I couldn't say for sure. But I guess I would ask how high you were dropping it from.

I don't think you understand the physics behind this. How come he had trouble cutting Magento's machine in X1 after Cyclops shot down Magneto? He had to use force to hold the claws there.

Yea you got me, I know nothing about Physics, please explain. In X1 I see Wolverine stick his claws in the machine and the whole thing explode, so I don't see your point. But since you seem to be an expert on Physics why don't you tell me how in X1 after Magneto is bending Wolverine's claws they are able to return to their original shape?

It has everything to do with strength and force behind it. If it had nothing to do with force, then armor piercing rounds would not exist. Steel swords could not cut another steel sword. It has everything to do with the amount of force behind it.

Wolverine didn't need to apply force to break the helicopter blade because the helicopter blade was applying the force against his claws! Why is that hard for you to understand?

Did you see Ace's post on the katana splitting the bullet? The katana wasn't even moving, crazy huh?

Wolverine wouldn't have been able to cut through those steel doors or helipcoter blades using his bone claws and his own physical strength. He was able to it only because of the adamantium.

When he fought Deadpool any advantage he had from the adamantium was reset to zero. He didn't have to cut through his blades or limbs.

The bullet could pierce his skull because of the velocity of the bullet and impact and a single point.

 

[Legion]

I like how you said that Stryker talks in metaphors. Someone needs to rewrite the script with all of his dialogue in metaphor format.

I can't take credit for that. I took fit rom posters on this board that wanted to bone claws in this movie depite it being out of continuity from what Stryker said in X2.

I'm still glad you it though.

 

[MrWayne]

im curious to know what events happened that led Creed to not remember Logan in X1.. since in the comics Creed was also a part of Weapon X i wonder if they erased his memory too... you know little details from the comics like how they gave Wolverine memory implants to give him false memories woulda been cool to implement in the movie but im sure woulda made things waaaaay too complicated lol but that whole erase his memory with an adamantium bullet?? smh... thats just lame lame lame storytelling...

 

[lespaul59]

im curious to know what events happened that led Creed to not remember Logan in X1.. since in the comics Creed was also a part of Weapon X i wonder if they erased his memory too... you know little details from the comics like how they gave Wolverine memory implants to give him false memories woulda been cool to implement in the movie but im sure woulda made things waaaaay too complicated lol but that whole erase his memory with an adamantium bullet?? smh... thats just lame lame lame storytelling...

Well in the preoual X2 Wolverine comic Sabertooth tells Wolverine something abolut fighting to gether. But if that comic is still part of the movie universe then Sabertooth does remeber Wolverine. And as for how Wolverine loses his memories, this is probaly the one thing I really disliked about the movie more than anything. With the exclusion of Rose either being a very close second or a tie.

 

[X-Maniac]

My showbiz/theatre writer Marion (theatre as in the UK definition of stage plays, not cinema) has just been to see Wolverine.

Bear in mind she doesn't know the comics and doesn't come on fan forums debating fine details.

She loved it, she couldn't understand the criticisms I had myself made in the review we ran - and then she said she had watched all three X-movies afterwards (over the weekend) and thought Wolverine fitted in perfectly.

I never drew her attention to any discrepancies but she never noticed variations in the way the procedure is depicted or any of that stuff. It's worth adding that this is possibly how some or many mainstream viewers see these films.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

Stryker told Agent Zero to take off his head yes? How do you not know if you can kill someone that you just put adamantium on? Why did they shoot Logan with regular bullets when they knew that only adamantium bullets would work?

Also, Wolverine has power behind him. Did you see how thick the metal door was that he made an X in and then escape? Did you see how easily he ran and cut open the metal doors with the cages? Did you see how easily he chopped the spinning blades of a helicopter? Do you understand how much force is behind an in flight helicopter blade? He cut a porcelian sink with ease, etc...

Wolverine has some massive power.

Yes but not as much as power as a Magnum...from about a yard away.

I mean, did you see the size of that hand cannon Stryker was using?

 

[X-Maniac]

He gave Wolverine claws and he wanted his head to be removed. There is no metaphor.


It wasn't their original intent but through wonderful writing, Stryker thinks he can control an angry Logan after he makes him invincible.


Stryker was never in danger before Wolverine was after him. He said all of that stuff, which were lies, to get Logan to do what he wants. Why would Stryker be afraid of a mutant killer that is working for him and doing so on his orders?

Stryker shot him twice in the head. Why would adamantium bullets be a last ditch effort? If he has enough to waste on someone to see if the procedure works, I am sure he has enough to make some bullets to give to Agent Zero.

I think you're being a bit silly here Chaseter. And you're very much an extreme isolated case with these endless dissections.

Most movies would end there and then if characters showcased their extreme options immediately.

Wolverine had a procedure to make him indestructible so he then had to be seen as indestructible and resisting attempts at capture in order to prove what Stryker had unleashed.

The adamantium bullets were a last resort - and clearly the film had to end after they were used because at that point Logan lost his memory.

If he had lost his memory before the procedure, during it, or directly afterwards, he'd have no memory of Stryker, Sabretooth or Kayla and thus wouldn't feel compelled to do what he did for the rest of the film.

So he had to retain his memory after the procedure in order to exact revenge on Stryker, feel upset by Kayla's deception and fight Sabretooth - it was only after the closure of all those events that a memory loss would be feasible.

Similarly, you could ask why Xavier didn't just fully restore Jean's mindblocks early on in X2 as her powers had obviously begun to leak through and shake entire bedrooms around, and this would have neatly cancelled out her entire arc for the rest of the film; or perhaps he should have totally restored them as soon as she was in the lab in X3, thus cancelling out her entire story for the rest of the film. We could also wonder why Storm took so long to lash out against Toad in X1 or why she didn't immediately fly up to the torch to rescue Rogue and end the movie at that point. Perhaps we could have had Yuriko kill Mystique in X2 when she came into her office and found a 'janitor' in there and then Magneto would never have got free and the second Cerebro would never be discovered and Xavier could just wipe everyone out and the movie screen could just go black as the film came to a dramatic close. Yes, that's right, let's end the entire film just like that with no sense of escalation in the plot. Seriously?!

 

[MrWayne]

Well in the preoual X2 Wolverine comic Sabertooth tells Wolverine something abolut fighting to gether. But if that comic is still part of the movie universe then Sabertooth does remeber Wolverine. And as for how Wolverine loses his memories, this is probaly the one thing I really disliked about the movie more than anything. With the exclusion of Rose either being a very close second or a tie.

Well the thing with comics is they know they know eachother but they just couldnt remember from where... they know they have many similarities between the two.. and as they have fought throughout the X-men timeline they never really new the full extent of their history... they both were part of Weapon X so they both have had their memories tampered with.. and it wasnt until the re-boot of x-men when jim lee came along did they start to scratch the surface to things concerning their past with weapon x, the cia, team x, maverick, omega red and so on.. but again.. the whole movie-verse/comic-verse makes things tangled lol

 

[MrWayne]

My showbiz/theatre writer Marion (theatre as in the UK definition of stage plays, not cinema) has just been to see Wolverine.

Bear in mind she doesn't know the comics and doesn't come on fan forums debating fine details.

She loved it, she couldn't understand the criticisms I had myself made in the review we ran - and then she said she had watched all three X-movies afterwards (over the weekend) and thought Wolverine fitted in perfectly.

I never drew her attention to any discrepancies but she never noticed variations in the way the procedure is depicted or any of that stuff. It's worth adding that this is possibly how some or many mainstream viewers see these films.

well.. im glad she enjoyed it... but like you said.. bear in mind that she doesnt know the comics.. nuff said...

 

[Ace of Knaves]

And what does that really have to do with anything?

If people talk about criticisms of the actual film fair enough.

But these films ain't the comics, comic book accuracy shouldn't come into it really. Unless the changes are really, really stupid and don't fit the narrative or the universe.

 

[CelticPredator]

You know what I noticed? They had ONE team X mission together....no seriously. Atleast Wolvie did. Because he doesnt know anyone....he asks Wade "Hey pal, dont you ever shut up?"

If he had missions, he would've known Wade's answer....


Ruagghhhhhhh!!

 

[MrWayne]

THANK you... case in point... ugh!!!! is rite.... lol we should start a riot in front of Fox hahaha

 

[MrWayne]

And what does that really have to do with anything?

If people talk about criticisms of the actual film fair enough.

But these films ain't the comics, comic book accuracy shouldn't come into it really. Unless the changes are really, really stupid and don't fit the narrative or the universe.

well for me.. it has everything to do with it (just my opinion) but i think if your gonna make a "comic book movie" it should have comic book accuracy... am i alone in this theory??? lol if not then just make a movie and dont use the comic referances why must it be that they take a popular iconic "COMIC BOOK" character and basterdize it? just make a movie then and stop trying to get us comic fan boys geeked out when in reality its their own take on it ... again just my opinion dont crucify me lol

 

[Ace of Knaves]

Well we would all love a 100% translation from book to screen, of course.

But it just ain't ever gonna happen, especially with reasonably big budget movies. It's just too much risk financially to cater JUST to the minority. Which, we are.

 

[Kanon]

Well we would all love a 100% translation from book to screen, of course.

I wouldn't. If I ever see Wolverine with the yellow costume, in a live action movie, I might actually die laughing.

 

[CelticPredator]

Me too.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

Well obviously with certain exceptions

 

[X-Maniac]

well.. im glad she enjoyed it... but like you said.. bear in mind that she doesnt know the comics.. nuff said...

The fact she doesn't know the comics is the actual point. She's not hung up on comic book details, she was looking at the film as a film and then at the film compared with the franchise. In both cases, she was satisfied.

Comic book purists who want literal translation are always going to be disappointed.

Singer has done the best job so far at adapting the comics in a way that works well and still respects the source, but he also made sacrifices and compromises and changed a lot of stuff around. Plus, his films lack the visceral energy in action sequences that you find in X3, Wolverine (and also in Star Trek, for that matter). Singer's action is more graceful and choreographed, not raw and realistic.

But overall, he did the best job with the X-Men and the formula they assembled for X2 obviously worked best - story outline by Hayter and Penn, then reworked by Harris and Dougherty to add more soul and character, and directed by Singer.