Plot holes/poor storytelling discussion

[chaseter]

People still said that

 

[MrWayne]

chaseter.. im sitting staring at your avatar in a daze.. all i can think of is Donnie Darko lol

 

[X-Maniac]

Why did you post this in here

Does this matter and what does it have to do with plot holes?

I posted it to show that these so-called plotholes are not visible to everyone, they are in many cases the perception of the person posting or the manifestation of a bias.

I wanted to illustrate that the points you incessantly raise are not causing other people such sleepless nights and forum fixation.

I also find it interesting how non-fans perceive these superhero films - it can help give a wider perspective beyond the geek bubble.

 

[X-Maniac]

I am being silly

Too many raptor raves, one assumes. Lay off the dino-drugs.

yet all you do is post how much you loved it, how much your friends loved it, and now how much Marion loved it.

All I do? Have I even said I 'loved it'?

I can post how much I disliked it and I can dissect this movie all I want. I am lenient with plot holes and on screen gaffs if it is a good movie, if it is well written, and if it is well acted.This is not the case.

But you are not lenient, it's a bias and a political gesture against the studio. I also saw you in the Star Trek thread saying you'd go to see ST again purely to stop Angels & Demons dominating it. So your choice of films to see or like is based on studio bias rather than on wanting to see the movie. That much is obvious. You don't like Fox, for various reasons, so you are picking the film apart - don't try to pull the wool over people's eyes and pretend otherwise.

The adamantium bullets were a sad last resort but at no time did Stryker think to himself...HEY, why don't I erase his memory before I make him invincible and unstoppable!? But, instead he waits until he is alive and fully armed and protected. Stryker is a military genius He also never thought to give his best gunman and his right hand man, Zero, adamantium bullets.

Well, drugs wouldn't work on a fully alert Wolverine. Wanting to erase his memory when he's sure the procedure worked and while Wolverine is incapacitated and weak in the tank seems logical.

Maybe he didn't have the adamantium bullets at the time he sent Zero. They weren't mentioned before Zero's mission failed, so maybe they weren't conceived, made or ready before then. I think you are being far too literal.

 

[MrWayne]

buddy.. have you seen how many ppl on here and on other forums around the net have issues with this movie? its not a vast minority i'll say that... so it isnt like this is a bias and its all in our heads.. and of course non fans are not gonna care cuz they dont know better.. theyre not fans of the materiel so they shouldnt.. the movie serves its purpose to them.. and just because the plot holes are not visible to all does not mean theyre not there regardless lol... but thank you for feeling the need to point out our delusions.. well noted. lol

 

[X-Maniac]

I didn't mind the magic bullet thing - but I thought the execution of it was poor. First of all, why not just give them to Zero in case anything went wrong during the procedure, or afterwards when he was tracking him down? It would have worked better if they had somehow created them after Logan escaped, rather than it look like they'd been sitting in some fancy case the whole time.

I also think they could have left out the dialogue explaining that the bullet would erase his memory. The whole thing is already anti-climatic because you know the bullet won't kill him, and that he will eventually lose his memory...why not just have the bullets be created during that final sequence and have Stryker just shoot him thinking he might have a chance at killing him. He'll just heal and wake up with his memory wiped out, and would at least it leave a little suspense as to what an adamantium bullet could do to him.

I thought the scene itself looked great, but the execution was a mess.

Then again, it's just as implausible as Magneto raising a visible mutant-transforming machine to the torch of the Statue of Liberty in plain view of every single world leader is attending a summit (on an island, of all places?!) and no one sees it.

Interesting thoughts. But it could be that they did create the bullets at a later point as they weren't mentioned before Zero's mission failed. I think a better line of dialogue might have helped at that point, something like: "Well, there's one last resort we have been working on - adamantium bullets. They've just been completed..."

And I agree it might also have worked to show that he lost his memory without explaining it beforehand. But since Stryker knew he was indestructible, then the explanation told us why he would even try shooting Wolverine in the first place.

 

[chaseter]

I said I would go see Star Trek again because it is a good movie. If that is bias then convict me!!! It deserves to do good and all the praise and critical response it is getting is well worth it. I can bet you have seen Wolverine more than once...why would you do that?

 

[MrWayne]

i still think having SHIVA as back up against wolverine woulda been cool lol

 

[X-Maniac]

I said I would go see Star Trek again because it is a good movie. If that is bias then convict me!!! It deserves to do good and all the praise and critical response it is getting is well worth it. I can bet you have seen Wolverine more than once...why would you do that?

I saw Wolverine at a free press screening, for which i was slightly late (due to traffic) and missed the first minute or so and then I also (like everyone else there) left before the post-credits scene.

Then I saw it again with my partner, who wanted to see it - and i wanted especially to see what I missed at the very beginning and the very end. I also wanted to see normal audience reaction and see it without the mad stress I had experienced getting to the press screening.

Does that sound excessive or like i am worshipping the film?????? I actually enjoyed it more the second time around, the film seemed to have more in it, i noticed a few things that I'm sure were not in the press screening version.

 

[MrWayne]

ok you two .. take it outside lol

 

[chaseter]

I support films that I think are good films...nothing more to it.

 

[MrWayne]

hey im with you lol it angers me too how this whole thing went down.. years in the making too and for what?? for this???! lol ahhhhh cant wait for the 2nd one!!!

 

[3 Dev Adam]

 

[javphonic]

I didn't mind the magic bullet thing - but I thought the execution of it was poor. First of all, why not just give them to Zero in case anything went wrong during the procedure, or afterwards when he was tracking him down? It would have worked better if they had somehow created them after Logan escaped, rather than it look like they'd been sitting in some fancy case the whole time.

I also think they could have left out the dialogue explaining that the bullet would erase his memory. The whole thing is already anti-climatic because you know the bullet won't kill him, and that he will eventually lose his memory...why not just have the bullets be created during that final sequence and have Stryker just shoot him thinking he might have a chance at killing him. He'll just heal and wake up with his memory wiped out, and would at least it leave a little suspense as to what an adamantium bullet could do to him.

I thought the scene itself looked great, but the execution was a mess.

now that you mention it, I remember during the memory-erasing-bullet dialogue, and I was like how do they know that? and how corny, now I know how it ends? I also liked the idea, but thought that indication should've been left out, as viewers would figure it out, based on the convo he had with Gambit after

 

[Legion]

I didn't mind the magic bullet thing - but I thought the execution of it was poor. First of all, why not just give them to Zero in case anything went wrong during the procedure, or afterwards when he was tracking him down? It would have worked better if they had somehow created them after Logan escaped, rather than it look like they'd been sitting in some fancy case the whole time.

The execution could have been better, but the point of the adamantium bullets was so that someone who didn't have a special power or expertise might be able to defend themselves from Wolverine.

We saw that not all of the bullets were able to penetrate Wolverine's skull at close range, it's less likely they would be able to penetrate at long range. At close range Zero was able to shoot a cigar out of Logan's mouth. Shooting him through his eye or his ear shouldn't have been a problem. But we see in this movie that he is cocky, takes things personal, and blows his opportunity.

I also think they could have left out the dialogue explaining that the bullet would erase his memory. The whole thing is already anti-climatic because you know the bullet won't kill him, and that he will eventually lose his memory...why not just have the bullets be created during that final sequence and have Stryker just shoot him thinking he might have a chance at killing him. He'll just heal and wake up with his memory wiped out, and would at least it leave a little suspense as to what an adamantium bullet could do to him.

I thought the scene itself looked great, but the execution was a mess.

Yea, the problem with this was as soon as he said it, you knew what was gonna happen. Instead, the scientist should have handed him the bullets and be like "take care of yourself".

I would have had Stryker shoot Wolverine in the back of his head, sending him into a rage. Stryker takes off in fear. When Kayla approaches Logan he snaps and stabs her. He realizes what's happened and runs like a wounded animal. His amnesia is part of his healing factor protecting him from the truth.

 

[lespaul59]

Well the thing with comics is they know they know eachother but they just couldnt remember from where... they know they have many similarities between the two.. and as they have fought throughout the X-men timeline they never really new the full extent of their history... they both were part of Weapon X so they both have had their memories tampered with.. and it wasnt until the re-boot of x-men when jim lee came along did they start to scratch the surface to things concerning their past with weapon x, the cia, team x, maverick, omega red and so on.. but again.. the whole movie-verse/comic-verse makes things tangled lol

I had forgoten that part. But considering that there is 15yrs between XOW and X1 I don't really see how that would be considered a plot hole but rather something left unexplained. I still think they should have had Rose or some version of Rose to explain why Wolverine is attracked to Jean. But that could just be the stick to the comics part of me comig out because more than likely the casual movie goer isn't even gonna pay attention to that.

 

[MrWayne]

im with you.. if youve read sum of my rants on here you'll see imma tru blue comic story line lover when it come to wolverines history... i take it personal somewhat.. how dare they mess with my childhood!! lol

 

[pyromaniac]

I didn't mind the magic bullet thing - but I thought the execution of it was poor. First of all, why not just give them to Zero in case anything went wrong during the procedure, or afterwards when he was tracking him down? It would have worked better if they had somehow created them after Logan escaped, rather than it look like they'd been sitting in some fancy case the whole time.

I also think they could have left out the dialogue explaining that the bullet would erase his memory. The whole thing is already anti-climatic because you know the bullet won't kill him, and that he will eventually lose his memory...why not just have the bullets be created during that final sequence and have Stryker just shoot him thinking he might have a chance at killing him. He'll just heal and wake up with his memory wiped out, and would at least it leave a little suspense as to what an adamantium bullet could do to him.

I thought the scene itself looked great, but the execution was a mess.

Then again, it's just as implausible as Magneto raising a visible mutant-transforming machine to the torch of the Statue of Liberty in plain view of every single world leader is attending a summit (on an island, of all places?!) and no one sees it.

Ahh yes, I think on the other end of the spectrum you have scenes that execute well, a little too well that cover up any possible lapses in logic of flaws they may otherwise would have revealed. I think Magneto raising up worked well, I mean I hadn't thought about that till now lol.

 

[danoyse]

Interesting thoughts. But it could be that they did create the bullets at a later point as they weren't mentioned before Zero's mission failed. I think a better line of dialogue might have helped at that point, something like: "Well, there's one last resort we have been working on - adamantium bullets. They've just been completed..."

And I agree it might also have worked to show that he lost his memory without explaining it beforehand. But since Stryker knew he was indestructible, then the explanation told us why he would even try shooting Wolverine in the first place.

Exactly. It totally works that the bullets just weren't ready yet, but it would have worked better if that's how they'd introduced them. The guy brought them out, and he even had a fancy case made up for them, which makes you think they'd had them for awhile.

They should have moved that scene to the 3 Mile Island sequence, and shown them being created as a result of Wolverine escaping and taking out Zero when they tried to hunt him down the first time. Then don't say that it will take out his memory, suggest instead that it's a possible way to kill Wolverine - it at least adds some suspense as to what they'll actually do. Then have him survive, but just lose his memory as a result.

Like I said, I thought the actually shooting scene looked incredible - and I think it was the most brutal moment in the film - but buildup to it was off.

(I still like the movie, though )

 

[Octoberist]

Pretty much, when the movie needed exposition to explain some of the plot points, it was clearly absent. We can make up our own "what if" scenarios in our heads, but in the long run it's bad writing. Or just sloppy writing. Or sloppy bad writing.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

I understood all of the plot points. Not saying they were all good, but I had no problem what-so-ever in following the movie.

 

[X-Maniac]

Regarding the adamantium bullet and the memory loss, I want to add a point i also put in the Rate and Review thread.

In the comic books, Agent Zero has a gun that's loaded with adamantium bullets and also once used 'anti-metal' bullets thst would pierce adamantium. This Marvel character profile confirms that:
http://www.marvel.com/universe/Agent_Zero

Wolverine also once stabbed Sabretooth in the head with his adamantium claws and caused Sabretooth to lose his memory.

I would imagine this is where Benioff (or someone else) got the ideas for what happened in the movie.

So for those grumbling about departure from source, it doesn't apply in those cases.

 

[Majik1387]

Regarding the adamantium bullet and the memory loss, I want to add a point i also put in the Rate and Review thread.

In the comic books, Agent Zero has a gun that's loaded with adamantium bullets and also once used 'anti-metal' bullets thst would pierce adamantium. This Marvel character profile confirms that:
http://www.marvel.com/universe/Agent_Zero

I don't see where it states that the adamantium bullets could pierce through adamantium

Wolverine also once stabbed Sabretooth in the head with his adamantium claws and caused Sabretooth to lose his memory.

I would imagine this is where Benioff (or someone else) got the ideas for what happened in the movie.

So for those grumbling about departure from source, it doesn't apply in those cases.

Not trying to cause a fight or anything, but was this stabbing in the head before or after his adamantium bonding? And before or after which one?

 

[Kanon]

I don't see where it states that the adamantium bullets could pierce through adamantium

If something can (and something can, since addamantium objects have been broken in Marvel Comics), is the same metal, and more easily with the force of a bullet

Not trying to cause a fight or anything, but was this stabbing in the head before or after his adamantium bonding? And before or after which one?

That's not the point. The point is that destroying the brain can cause memory loss

 

[X-Maniac]

I don't see where it states that the adamantium bullets could pierce through adamantium

It includes the concept of adamantium bullets.

The ones that pierce adamantium are made of 'anti-metal' which is far too out there for the grounded X-Men series. Since the only thing that can cut diamond is diamond, it's a logical step that adamantium can in some circumstances cut through adamantium, like a close-range bullet fired from a magnum.

Not trying to cause a fight or anything, but was this stabbing in the head before or after his adamantium bonding? And before or after which one?

Not sure, but it's the point that adamantium can cause memory loss.

I just want people to be clear the bullet, and the idea of adamantium causing memory loss, were not just some random invention by the movie.

The execution of those ideas is another discussion entirely, their inclusion is now shown to be based on comic book precedent.