The Dark Knight Rises Protegé concept

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In another thread somebody wondered when Robin could or should be incorporated into the film series. If we're talking Robin as we know him from the comics, then I say he should never be brought in. What I don't like about the comic-book Robin is (a) it's massively irresponsible to take a kid into dangerous situations and expect him to fight his way out; the idea's just ludicrous. And (b) Robin's suit has always sucked; he and Batman don't have superpowers but rely on stealth. Green, yellow and red aren't in the stealth vein, exactly. Plus you know darn well Robin's not hiding any kevlar in there.

However, I'd be open to a new protegé-type character inspired by Robin and Nightwing. Here's a scenario suggested by a friend of mine. A young and angry kid, barely 18, has survived the destruction caused by Bruce at the League of Shadows headquarters. He's clueless about good and evil, but passionate about the League's agenda, and he tracks Bruce to Gotham and tries to tail Batman and engage him.

Batman wipes the street with the kid's rear, of course, but kinda feels sorry for him at the same time. Bruce then tries to make friends with the kid and offers to complete his training. Bruce isn't looking for a partner, but this would be done out of compassion. Kid goes on to get his own crime-fighting suit (all dark tones for nighttime activity) and calls himself Nightwing, not Robin. Maybe he sticks with Bats for a while; maybe he strikes out on his own (though probably not in Gotham).

A different variation - but still involving Batman taking a troubled youth under his wing - could borrow a bit of Alex Ross's WAR ON CRIME. That scene where a ghetto kid confronts Bats with a pistol and Batman just stares him down and then hugs the kid - that's a very moving little story in the Batman mythos. A film variation on that with the kid being 18 or so would be great; Batman having a positive impact on urban youth.

I'd be willing to bet most Bat-fans would go along with that sort of innovation.

 

[Ceb-Man]

Hmm. Interesting concept.

 

[El Payaso]

It sounds way more interesting than the average Robin. Bruce would be the mentor, as Ra's. But not trying to control the kid's life or trying to batman-ize him. I'd go further and say no superheroic uniform is needed but just the mask. Maybe as an homage to his mentor, just like Batman kept League of the Shadows' gauntlets.

If we're talking Robin as we know him from the comics, then I say he should never be brought in.

Yep.

 

[FaT_tONle]

Robin can be realistic and it CAN work... just not any time soon...

 

[El Payaso]

This thread is about making him work realistically.

 

[El Payaso]

The only way to do it.

 

[El Payaso]

Batman is a good character. His roots are non campy. Robin on the other hand...

 

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ROBIN THE BOY BLUNDER . . . ?

Kid partner. Take a look at this summary of Robin(Dick Grayson)'s origin from Wikipedia:

"Richard John 'Dick' Grayson was an eight-year-old circus acrobat, the youngest of a family act called the 'Flying Graysons'. A gangster named Boss Zucco (loosely based on actor Edward G. Robinson's Little Caesar character) had been extorting money from the circus and killed Grayson's parents, John and Mary, by sabotaging their trapeze equipment as a warning against defiance. The Batman investigated the crime and, as his alter ego millionaire Bruce Wayne, had Dick put under his custody as a legal ward (later adopting him as his son). Batman rigorously trained the boy, teaching him physical, fighting and detective skills."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robin_%28comics%29

That entire scenario is not only believable but, if well-written, can be a very moving storyline. The question is: Over what period of time does Bruce train the kid? It becomes absolutely absurd if Grayson while still a kid joins Batman in actual confrontations with criminals. This is an inherently and unavoidably stupid idea. It's not believable that a punk could outmatch serious criminals, nor that a responsible and sharp-minded adult like Bruce Wayne would be so dumb and careless as to put a kid in harm's way. So, if there's some version of Robin in a film series intended to feel realistic, then that "Robin" cannot be a kid.

Plausibility conditions. The idea of Batman training another crimefighter is believable and could be made to work within the following parameters. (1) "Robin" can't be under-age for dangerous situations. (2) He can't be the type of sidekick who is annoying to the audience or who steals the spotlight from Batman. Multiple heroes can work in a story (e.g., the X-Men), but the Bat himself should command the most attention and be the story's focal point. (3) "Robin" can't wear a gaudy costume that is the opposite of stealth; it should be all-black or a combination of gray and black for operating in the shadows and at night, and of course augmented with armour. (Without "birdlike" colours, this may require a name-change from "Robin"; personally I'd prefer he immediately become Nightwing - or even a new Batman if Bruce retires at that point.)

Possible "Robinesque" scenarios. (1) A youthful holdover from the League of Shadows tracks Bruce down, and the Bat takes the place of Ra's as a trainer in the kid's life. Kid goes on to be Batman's partner or else strike out on his own - or perhaps even decides to become a villain.

(2) A troubled teen more in the Dick Grayson mold, or maybe a hybrid of Grayson/Jason Todd/Tim Drake, is encountered in the streets by Batman, who feels duty-bound to help the kid out somehow. But the kid would not become an overnight crimefighter. Instead he may be a computer nerd or something and helps Bruce out on the tech end of things, more like Oracle. Or if he's a street kid perhaps he could help Batman by scouting out some neighbourhoods (not engaging any thugs, though) for info. Only if the screenwriter establishes the character's street-smarts would it become plausible that Batman would use him as a mobile informant.

(3) Maybe in a future installment, Batman has aged and is close to retirement. Then he's thinking about the future of Gotham and realizes he needs to train someone to take his place. The future Batman could be the kid from Scenario (1) or (2), or with a first appearance in this particular installment. This could be more along the lines of a Dark Knight Returns plotline.

If the plot involves Batman nearing retirement, then his relationship to the new crimefighter could be along the lines of father-and-son. If Batman is younger and trains somebody roughly ten years his junior, then an "big brother" approach would work better.

Nolan's Bat-world. Here's another Wikipedia comment on Robin's origin:

"Early Batman stories frequently use the grim tone of the film noir and gothic horror films of the day, with Batman showing little remorse over killing or maiming criminals.
"This interpretation of Batman softens in Detective Comics #38 in 1940. Dick Grayson/Robin (named after Robin Hood) is introduced based on Finger's suggestion to Kane that Batman needed a 'Watson'. Kane, partly inspired by the Junior character from Dick Tracy, made the sidekick a young boy. . . . In Batman #7, (1941) Batman is made an honorary member of Gotham City's police department, moving him even farther from his dark, vigilante roots. Batman's tone continues to stay light for the next several decades."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batman

So in other words the character of Robin was intended to lighten the mood of the Bat-mythos. Christopher Nolan, of course, has gone the dark and gritty route for this new film series, and critics, Bat-fans, and general movie-goers have all really taken to it. If there's some new version of Robin to show up in a Nolan Bat-film, the character has to be revamped in such a way as to fit into the "dark and gritty" atmosphere of this series. If he does not, he won't work. And if Watson can avoid dumbing down Sherlock Holmes stories, then a vigilante-trainee doesn't have to dumb down Batman stories.


Now, assuming Nolan only does three films, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me to include Robin or a Robin-type character. Given limited time for a trilogy's story arc, it makes more sense to limit the number of characters and not do anything to distract our attention from Batman's own evolution. I agree with people who have said that maybe somewhere in Nolan's third installment a kid could be introduced (or the kid from Begins reintroduced and revealed as Grayson) whom the audience knows will one day become a crimefighter in his own right, but who never actually sees any crime-busting action in that film. My own Robin-type scenarios assume that Batman is at least 10 or more years older than he is right now in Nolan's series.

Now given that Nolan has already established the idea of "escalation," the idea of Batman training a new crimefighter makes a certain kind of sense - if it's done at the right time and in the right way. It seems believable to me that not only would criminals become more vicious and creative to match Batman's mean and unorthodox ways, but also that the Bat would inspire the rise of new crimefighters.

In a context of "escalation," Batman might even find he needs some backup, that he can't go it alone, and thus the idea of a trainee makes even more sense. So here's a fourth scenario (which may involve an older Batman wondering how he can cope with the expanding criminal element): What if escalation gets to the point where Batman comes up with the idea of his own "League of Shadows," perhaps simply called "the Batmen" or "League of the Bat"? Some plot strands from The Dark Knight Returns could be incorporated here.

Since Nolan is also emphasizing realism (thank goodness), the "Robin-type" character (or multiple trainees) would have to stay away from direct engagement with criminals until his training and maturity have actually made him ready for it. However, it's also believable that an over-eager kid would perhaps sneak around and insert himself into the action against Batman's orders. In that case there ought to be realistic consequences: perhaps the kid has the absolute crap scared out of him (maybe he gets beat to a pulp and nearly killed by the likes of a Joker or a Black Mask). Bats rescues him and then the kid's too scared to disobey orders ever again. This is something that would believably happen to a kid trying to take on serious criminals, and in that kind of story the kid wouldn't be annoying, but would learn precisely the lesson the audience wants him to learn.

Conclusion. I'm not opposed to the bare idea of Batman training another vigilante. In an escalation scenario it might even be more believable than not training a new crimefighter (or more than one). But the traditional Robin's age and gaudy costume have got to be changed in order to avoid ending up with a ridiculous character in a "serious" live-action production.

 

[El Payaso]

But the traditional Robin's age and gaudy costume have got to be changed in order to avoid ending up with a ridiculous character in a "serious" live-action production.

Keeping the age and costume is keeping a ridiculous character.

 

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Keeping the age and costume is keeping a ridiculous character.

Uh, yeah. . . . That's kinda what I said, isn't it? You were agreeing with me, right?

 

[El Payaso]

Absoluitely. Don't let the futility of my posts to confuse you.

 

[GL1]

Wow... a lot to say...
The comics have changed Robin's age and gaudy costume, I don't see why a movie wouldn't.

My concept at this point:

Circus accident in Gotham, young orphan, limited papers if any, runaway mentality coupled with beaurocracy makes for one of those kids who just falls through the cracks, legally and socially. He goes after Zucco, Batman reigns him in, and gets useful info from him somewhere halfway through the movie, Batman takes him in in the end, on some legal loophole foolishness.

On Age:
The ideal age, to me, is between 12 and 15 years old, assuming, of course, that we have a non-combatant. Any younger and... well... Any older and you have something much more like an adult, and if "Robin" is an adult, then he's not trainable, he's not a contrast with Batman and much of his emotional weight is gone. Of course, this means, by his second appearance, he's a bascially a grown man.

On the name "Robin"
Honestly, this could be a throwaway line. "Robin to Mother Hen. Do you copy?" or some such. If he has an 'R' shurkien or any such, that could easily be up in the air whether it's for his name, Richard, or for his mother's nickname.

On the Costume:
Robin doesn't even wear that in the comics anymore, where Superman wears bright red and blue. I think it's safe to assume the red-yellow-green costume is out... I would opt to use Red as a secondary color (with Black as the primary color)... of course, I really wouldn't use much of a costume at all... it's not like the Army makes teenage wear. But then again, I wouldn't have the protoge character going hand to hand with thugs, either.

On the protoge's role:
I would like to see Batman's protoge end up being kind of like an office runner. "Richard, go do this," "Richard, go do that," "Richard, go stake out this place," "go spy on this guy," "go ask around about these people," "drive the Batmobile home for me," "You're slow, go practice." Stuff like that. An apprentice in the truest sense of the word.

I think we're all in agreement that a tagalong martial artist is more than out of the question.

 

[NyteWing]

I don't see a need to blend or change the dick grayson storyline all that much. It's a great story, and actually works well into the way nolan did the first film. Batman was forged through fear, anguish, and grief. It's natural that if Bruce saw a young, abandoned Dick Grayson going through that, he would intervene. However, it should be emphasized ho much pain Dick is in, and that is the reason Bruce wants to help. Not because he want/needs a partner. And they can show Bruce getting too into his Batman persona, and Grayson being the thing that keeps him from going over the edge.

I would take it slowly with him. If he were introduced in this one, he would do little more than train and maybe some surveillance work. No way Bruce sends him after the Joker. Maybe he could beat up a lowlife once on the street, just to show he's coming along.

As for the costume, I agree that it shouldn't be all that bright. Pick darker shades of red and green (maybe a blood red or something). But he wouldn't be unleashed on Gotham until the next movie, if I had my way.

 

[GL1]

I don't see a need to blend or change the dick grayson storyline all that much. It's a great story, and actually works well into the way nolan did the first film. Batman was forged through fear, anguish, and grief. It's natural that if Bruce saw a young, abandoned Dick Grayson going through that, he would intervene. However, it should be emphasized ho much pain Dick is in, and that is the reason Bruce wants to help. Not because he want/needs a partner. And they can show Bruce getting too into his Batman persona, and Grayson being the thing that keeps him from going over the edge.

I would take it slowly with him. If he were introduced in this one, he would do little more than train and maybe some surveillance work. No way Bruce sends him after the Joker. Maybe he could beat up a lowlife once on the street, just to show he's coming along.

As for the costume, I agree that it shouldn't be all that bright. Pick darker shades of red and green (maybe a blood red or something). But he wouldn't be unleashed on Gotham until the next movie, if I had my way.

That's classic Robin, no doubt, but it doesn't fit into Nolan's universe that well, honestly. In Begins, there is nothing established that Bruce Wayne can help Dick with any pain whatsoever. Batman hasn't helped Bruce with *his* pain, why would he think he can help someone else? It's going to take a little more than emotional trauma to establish that living with Bruce Wayne is the best option for Grayson.

As for going over the edge... I think that Batman is much better when he *is* too into his Batman persona. I don't like it when (comic) writers make it seem like he prefers his mask to his normal face, but Batman is awesome when he's stone cold bonkers. What other kind of character can take responsbility for a whole city and kick Superman's butt on the side.

I think the idea of Robin pulling Batman from the dark side is and old idea based on Robin's origional purpose, which was to introduce a lightheartedness and innosence to the franchise to keep the book from getting cancelled/sued. There is no need to lighten up Batman at this point, so pulling him from the dark side is a bad idea. It's like stopping a werewolf midtransformation... it's a good deed, but doesn't make for much of a movie. And, honestly, Robin works better as an overtaxed, overworked apprentice, who's biggest problem is that he'll never be Batman, even though his whole life is consumed with training to be. He does offer unique insight into Bruce's life by way of reflection, but I don't think the best way to use that is to take the Batman out of Bruce... at least not for entertainment purposes.

These are simply my thoughts...

 

[Muslim Works]

In another thread somebody wondered when Robin could or should be incorporated into the film series. If we're talking Robin as we know him from the comics, then I say he should never be brought in. What I don't like about the comic-book Robin is (a) it's massively irresponsible to take a kid into dangerous situations and expect him to fight his way out; the idea's just ludicrous. And (b) Robin's suit has always sucked; he and Batman don't have superpowers but rely on stealth. Green, yellow and red aren't in the stealth vein, exactly. Plus you know darn well Robin's not hiding any kevlar in there.

However, I'd be open to a new protegé-type character inspired by Robin and Nightwing. Here's a scenario suggested by a friend of mine. A young and angry kid, barely 18, has survived the destruction caused by Bruce at the League of Shadows headquarters. He's clueless about good and evil, but passionate about the League's agenda, and he tracks Bruce to Gotham and tries to tail Batman and engage him.

Batman wipes the street with the kid's rear, of course, but kinda feels sorry for him at the same time. Bruce then tries to make friends with the kid and offers to complete his training. Bruce isn't looking for a partner, but this would be done out of compassion. Kid goes on to get his own crime-fighting suit (all dark tones for nighttime activity) and calls himself Nightwing, not Robin. Maybe he sticks with Bats for a while; maybe he strikes out on his own (though probably not in Gotham).

A different variation - but still involving Batman taking a troubled youth under his wing - could borrow a bit of Alex Ross's WAR ON CRIME. That scene where a ghetto kid confronts Bats with a pistol and Batman just stares him down and then hugs the kid - that's a very moving little story in the Batman mythos. A film variation on that with the kid being 18 or so would be great; Batman having a positive impact on urban youth.

I'd be willing to bet most Bat-fans would go along with that sort of innovation.

Very interesting but too risky to try in this movie series. I wouldn't mind a one shot "Elseworld" type of story to see how fans would react to it.

 

[Muslim Works]

In another thread somebody wondered when Robin could or should be incorporated into the film series. If we're talking Robin as we know him from the comics, then I say he should never be brought in. What I don't like about the comic-book Robin is (a) it's massively irresponsible to take a kid into dangerous situations and expect him to fight his way out; the idea's just ludicrous. And (b) Robin's suit has always sucked; he and Batman don't have superpowers but rely on stealth. Green, yellow and red aren't in the stealth vein, exactly. Plus you know darn well Robin's not hiding any kevlar in there.

However, I'd be open to a new protegé-type character inspired by Robin and Nightwing. Here's a scenario suggested by a friend of mine. A young and angry kid, barely 18, has survived the destruction caused by Bruce at the League of Shadows headquarters. He's clueless about good and evil, but passionate about the League's agenda, and he tracks Bruce to Gotham and tries to tail Batman and engage him.

Batman wipes the street with the kid's rear, of course, but kinda feels sorry for him at the same time. Bruce then tries to make friends with the kid and offers to complete his training. Bruce isn't looking for a partner, but this would be done out of compassion. Kid goes on to get his own crime-fighting suit (all dark tones for nighttime activity) and calls himself Nightwing, not Robin. Maybe he sticks with Bats for a while; maybe he strikes out on his own (though probably not in Gotham).

A different variation - but still involving Batman taking a troubled youth under his wing - could borrow a bit of Alex Ross's WAR ON CRIME. That scene where a ghetto kid confronts Bats with a pistol and Batman just stares him down and then hugs the kid - that's a very moving little story in the Batman mythos. A film variation on that with the kid being 18 or so would be great; Batman having a positive impact on urban youth.

I'd be willing to bet most Bat-fans would go along with that sort of innovation.

edit

 

[NyteWing]

^^^^

I personally don't think Nolan's Batman would hug a kid that was threatening to shoot him.

 

[nachoman]

I think introducing nightwing in the new batman movies is a way better idea than using robin again.

We've already seen robin in batman forever, as well as batman & robin and those films were truly awful. Robin always reminds me of the camp 60's tv show with his corny lines and bright coloured suit. A little kid fighting crazed killers and psychopaths with batman just wouldn't work.

I think nightwing would keep the dark tone of batman begins and would be a fresh change from robin.

Maybe when batman becomes a bit older in the movies he can start looking for an apprentice but for now batman should be the main focus.

I'd really like to see harley quinn as joker's henchwoman and love interest too. Their crazy relationship could be really great on screen if done well.

 

[GL1]

I think introducing nightwing in the new batman movies is a way better idea than using robin again.

We've already seen robin in batman forever, as well as batman & robin and those films were truly awful. Robin always reminds me of the camp 60's tv show with his corny lines and bright coloured suit. A little kid fighting crazed killers and psychopaths with batman just wouldn't work.

I think nightwing would keep the dark tone of batman begins and would be a fresh change from robin.

Maybe when batman becomes a bit older in the movies he can start looking for an apprentice but for now batman should be the main focus.

I'd really like to see harley quinn as joker's henchwoman and love interest too. Their crazy relationship could be really great on screen if done well.

Awww... you didn't read the thread.

 

[larryfilmmaker]

Robin can be realistic and it CAN work... just not any time soon...

I totally agree. Nipples and camp aside, the Schumacher films showed that a Robin costume can be armored and can look even cooler than Batman's. I say let them do 2 movies with no Robin, then have Bruce adopt the boy. In the final moments of the final film of the franchise, I would love to see Bruce step down as Batman as the legacy goes onward, proving it's about more than any one person. Imagine the final shot being that of Batman standing on a rooftop and you know it's Grayson but to the world, Batman is immortal. Strong stuff if handled right, but we all know that anything that involves somebody doing something better than Bruce Wayne brings a lot of angry fans out of the woodworks. Still, I'd love to see them have the balls to do this.

 

[larryfilmmaker]

As for going over the edge... I think that Batman is much better when he *is* too into his Batman persona. I don't like it when (comic) writers make it seem like he prefers his mask to his normal face, but Batman is awesome when he's stone cold bonkers. What other kind of character can take responsbility for a whole city and kick Superman's butt on the side.

I think the idea of Robin pulling Batman from the dark side is and old idea based on Robin's origional purpose, which was to introduce a lightheartedness and innosence to the franchise to keep the book from getting cancelled/sued. There is no need to lighten up Batman at this point, so pulling him from the dark side is a bad idea. It's like stopping a werewolf midtransformation... it's a good deed, but doesn't make for much of a movie. And, honestly, Robin works better as an overtaxed, overworked apprentice, who's biggest problem is that he'll never be Batman, even though his whole life is consumed with training to be. He does offer unique insight into Bruce's life by way of reflection, but I don't think the best way to use that is to take the Batman out of Bruce... at least not for entertainment purposes.

These are simply my thoughts...

Very well put but I agree 110%. What if Grayson someday was BETTER than Batman?! I know what everybody's thinking... "Oh my God, that's impossible! Batman's the best fighter, thinker, detective, musician, astronaut, physicist, dentist, and superhero of all time! Nobody can be better than him!" Well that's my point. What if the student became the master. It's how the world works ya know. Ignore the stubborn point of view of Batman is God and there's nothing Superman or Neo can do about it and look at it in terms of how great of stories there are to tell about the Batman legacy. How about watching Batman toss Grayson around in training sessions for a movie or two, then watching the boy grow into a man, maybe Nightwing or whatever. How about towards the end, an awkward, amazingly silent and powerful pause from both the characters on screen and the audience. Grayson just threw Bruce to the ground in a training session. Holy hell. It's new territory and it would be mortality slapping Batman in the face. Powerful stuff. I hope someday we see it.

 

[cerealkiller182]

A scene that always jumped out at me is in batman forever when Dick fights the neon gang and Batman shows up. He starts punching Batman wondering where he was and why he didnt save his parents. Im thinking after the death of the graysons Dick becomes his own vigilante dressing in a leather jacket and winter hat or hood. When Bats catches him fighting some thugs, he stops him and then Dick continues to confront Bats. Finally, Bruce takes him in, shares his secret, and trains him. By the climax, Robin would be in full suit and fighting against Batmans wishes. He would still be underage, 16-17, to be taken in by Bruce. Robin then would appear in the sequels as a side character always in the Batcave not allowed to leave. I remember a few episodes of Batman: TAS where Batman would call Robin who would use the Batcomputer and find info for bats. I think that would work. Keep the Dick Grayson attitude plus Tims new darker costume with a darker red like the Batman forever costume.

 

[GL1]

Interesting tangent... interesting scene...

I think part of what can make Grayson Begins work is that Bruce NOT decide to adopt him at the cirucs, but rather run into the kid in the street trying to fight and end up with a problem since he has nowhere to return this kid to.

As far as costume, that's a sensitive subject. I think he should stay in red and black, and his costume, honestly, shouldn't be an 'official' costume per se, nor should he ever be standing side to side with bats, but over time, his practice or free-running or stealth-scouting uniform becomes something cool-looking and he places the R-shuriken on the front.

I certainly don't want him in military "spelunking" gear.

 

[larryfilmmaker]

hmmm not bad ideas at all. I like the idea of Bruce not adopting him, then running into Dick on the streets of Gotham. Dick is trying to avenge his parents' death in the same vigilante manner, but lacks the (let's admit it) MONEY to go on world travels, be trained by the best, or even have a decent suit/arsenal. He could be on a road toward darkness and eventually death and Batman could provide him guidance. There are ways of making Dick/Robin/Nightwing an amazing cinematic character. We don't just shriek, yell "eww, no Robin!" and run away. Nobody would have ever made a movie about a guy dressing up like a bat if they'd done that.

 

[El Payaso]

A scene that always jumped out at me is in batman forever when Dick fights the neon gang and Batman shows up. He starts punching Batman wondering where he was and why he didnt save his parents. Im thinking after the death of the graysons Dick becomes his own vigilante dressing in a leather jacket and winter hat or hood. When Bats catches him fighting some thugs, he stops him and then Dick continues to confront Bats. Finally, Bruce takes him in, shares his secret, and trains him. By the climax, Robin would be in full suit and fighting against Batmans wishes. He would still be underage, 16-17, to be taken in by Bruce. Robin then would appear in the sequels as a side character always in the Batcave not allowed to leave. I remember a few episodes of Batman: TAS where Batman would call Robin who would use the Batcomputer and find info for bats. I think that would work. Keep the Dick Grayson attitude plus Tims new darker costume with a darker red like the Batman forever costume.

Far more interesting than the traditional story.