Race and Gender in Marvel Movies - an all studios discussion

[mace1]

Spider-Man: Homecoming
Tiffany Espensen
Role
Cindy


Silk Rumored For Spider-Man: Homecoming Played By Tiffany Espensen

http://www.cosmicbooknews.com/content/silk-rumored-spider-man-homecoming-played-tiffany-espensen


"Spider-Man: Homecoming" Adds Tiffany Espensen & Garcelle Beauvais

Espensen and Beauvais have joined Marvel Studios and Sony's joint "Spider-Man: Homecoming" in as-yet-unspecified roles.

Full article here.

 

[Steamteck]

I was genuinely surprised that you find anything other than melee (and Darkstar) boring. That's all, dude. No biggie.

Been a while but I've been gone . Not what I said. ( I think) I don't care for characters who transform into energy as opposed to emitting controlling it. No biggie.

 

[mace1]

"Doctor Strange" Poster Confirms Casting of Benjamin Bratt - CBR

 

[mace1]

Marvel's Black Panther Adds Forest Whitaker - CBR

 

[mace1]

Benedict Wong Confirmed For Avengers Infinity War

Avengers: Infinity War Will Bring Back Doctor Strange Star Benedict Wong

 

[TheVileOne]

Here's a great article everyone should read defending the casting of Tilda Swinton as the Ancient One. Great points in how no one would acknowledge the casting of a black actor as a predominantly white character in the film, and how the Ancient One is arguably a problematic racially stereotypical characters.

http://fanboynation.com/itr-doctor-strange-ancient-one/

 

[MbJ]

how the Ancient One is arguably a problematic racially stereotypical characters.

http://fanboynation.com/itr-doctor-strange-ancient-one/

People keep saying that and it's a silly defense. The director made a huge deal of saying they thought Wong would be seen as racist and offensive, so they went out of their way to completely overhaul the character so he wouldn't be seen as a menial stereotype. If they could do that for Wong there's no reason the Ancient One couldn't be redeemed.

 

[mace1]

Here's a great article everyone should read defending the casting of Tilda Swinton as the Ancient One. Great points in how no one would acknowledge the casting of a black actor as a predominantly white character in the film, and how the Ancient One is arguably a problematic racially stereotypical characters.

http://fanboynation.com/itr-doctor-strange-ancient-one/

how no one would acknowledge the casting of a black actor as a predominantly white character in the film

I think this did not come out right.

The actor is not playing a white character in the film.He is playing a black character in the film or a black version of a character who happens to be white in the comics and animated movie.
The actor is playing a character that is white in the comics and cartoons ,now that character will be black in the movie but european in culture or mostly european in culture.

 

[mace1]

By the way here something about the ancient one in the film i read recently.

* Tilda Swinton as the Ancient One:

A Celtic mystic,who becomes Strange's mentor and trains pupils to be the next Sorcerer Supreme. Marvel Studios initially searched for a male actor, but rethought the role and made it female. Before filming began, Swinton did not know if she would portray the character as a female or male, but later stated that the character's gender is "all in the eye of the beholder". Feige said, "we use the terms 'her' and 'she' in the film but, other than that, it's very androgynous. Because it doesn't matter,"and explained that the Ancient One is "a mantle more than a specific person... There have been multiple [Ancient Ones], even if this one has been around for five hundred years, there were others. This is a mantle, and therefore felt we had leeway to cast in interesting ways."Had Swinton not accepted the role, the script would have been rewritten, as the part was written specifically for Swinton.Swinton's casting drew accusations of whitewashing due to the fact that the character is generally depicted as a Tibetan man. Co-writer C. Robert Cargill compared it to the Kobayashi Maru (an unwinnable training exercise in the Star Trek universe), saying, "There is no other character in Marvel [Comics] history that is such a cultural land mine that is absolutely unwinnable," citing the Asian racial stereotype surrounding the character, and the political climate around Tibet. As such, Derrickson decided to "use this as an opportunity to cast an amazing actress in a male role."In response, Swinton stated that the film's version of the character is not meant to be Asian, and that she was never asked to play an Asian character.

 

[TheVileOne]

People keep saying that and it's a silly defense. The director made a huge deal of saying they thought Wong would be seen as racist and offensive, so they went out of their way to completely overhaul the character so he wouldn't be seen as a menial stereotype. If they could do that for Wong there's no reason the Ancient One couldn't be redeemed.

The person who wrote the article is Asian American FYI.

They changed Wong from Doctor Strange's man-servant into a librarian and fellow sorcerer now. But he's still in there as a supporting character.

Even if you overhaul the Ancient One, I don't see how there any getting around that he's basically the type of stereotypical mystical Asian character that would just as easily draw criticisms from civil rights groups.

I'm not happy with the MCU Mandarin and what was done with the character. I don't see the modern versions of the character as a racist stereotype. But then again, I'm not Asian either.

 

[TheVileOne]

I think this did not come out right.

OK, and? The character throughout has history has always been a white caucasian character until now.

 

[mace1]

I'm not happy with the MCU Mandarin and what was done with the character. I don't see the modern versions of the character as a racist stereotype. But then again, I'm not Asian either.

I found this interesting.

Marvel Cinematic Universe


Mandarin

* In interviews, Kevin Feige suggested that Killian built his idea of the Mandarin from legends he had heard, and hinted that the audience should believe in the strong possibility that there may be a comic-book-accurate person known as the Mandarin within the MCU.

• * Ben Kingsley reprises his role as Slattery in the Marvel One-Shot short All Hail the King,in which the character is imprisoned following the events of Iron Man 3, until he is kidnapped by agents of the real Mandarin.

I have to checkout this one shot film later.
I still have not done it yet.

 

[MbJ]

Even if you overhaul the Ancient One, I don't see how there any getting around that he's basically the type of stereotypical mystical Asian character that would just as easily draw criticisms from civil rights groups

And yet in the same post you make the argument that a modern take on the Mandarin could have avoided the racist stereotypes of the original.

Of course it's moot anyway because the change had little to do with offensiveness and more with marvel not wanting to risk the Chinese box office by having a major Tibetan character.

They changed Wong from Doctor Strange's man-servant into a librarian and fellow sorcerer now. But he's still in there as a supporting character.

Okay? That's kinda literally the point. The director realized Wong had a bunch of hurtful and offensive stereotypes, so he did a complete modernization of him. Just like is probably gonna happen with Man-Ape in the Black Panther movie.

 

[TheVileOne]

And yet in the same post you make the argument that a modern take on the Mandarin could have avoided the racist stereotypes of the original.

I wish that was the case. But even if they did, people still might have complained, I think it's the same with the Ancient One. I wish they could've kept the Ancient One an Asian/Tibetan character as well. But this is a very sensitive issue these days. It's a lot about safe spaces and avoiding triggers.

Okay? That's kinda literally the point. The director realized Wong had a bunch of hurtful and offensive stereotypes, so he did a complete modernization of him. Just like is probably gonna happen with Alan-Ape in the Black Panther movie.

Well, we shall see. Some people still might Wong an offensive character.

 

[MbJ]

Well, we shall see. Some people still might Wong an offensive character.

I highly doubt it, but even then there's never gonna be any creative decision that's 100 percent universally loved. That's not a race thing, that's just movie making in general. Someone is always not gonna like something you're doing.

But this is a very sensitive issue these days. It's a lot about safe spaces and avoiding triggers.

Yeah, it has nothing to do with safe spaces or trigger warnings and everything to do with money. They know the Chinese government would throw a hissy fit since they refuse to acknowledge Tibetan sovereignty, so Marvel is tip toeing around the issue to please them. Same thing with the Mandarin too, though of course they had a much better case about Mandarin being offensive in that instance.

Which is a perfectly logical financial decision. They are after all a corporation out to make money. But bending over backwards to placate oppressive political regimes is a slippery slope in its own right. Of course, that's a whole other topic.

 

[Chance Jackson]

The person who wrote the article is Asian American FYI.

They changed Wong from Doctor Strange's man-servant into a librarian and fellow sorcerer now. But he's still in there as a supporting character.

Even if you overhaul the Ancient One, I don't see how there any getting around that he's basically the type of stereotypical mystical Asian character that would just as easily draw criticisms from civil rights groups.

Steeping a white guy into the same orientalism isn't better imo and making him the supreme of that orientalism is demonstratively worse imo

I'm not happy with the MCU Mandarin and what was done with the character. I don't see the modern versions of the character as a racist stereotype. But then again, I'm not Asian either.

I was ok with MCU Mandarin it was smart: no orientalism, no yellow peril, just a red haring meant to fool the world. I think the only ones with problems with this were 616 purists

 

[TheVileOne]

Steeping a white guy into the same orientalism isn't better imo and making him the supreme of that orientalism is demonstratively worse imo

You mean like the film's hero, Doctor Strange. A white character portrayed by a white actor?

I was ok with MCU Mandarin it was smart: no orientalism, no yellow peril, just a red haring meant to fool the world. I think the only ones with problems with this were 616 purists

A lot of people were disappointed with the Mandarin twist and it's one of the most criticized elements of the film.

I found this interesting.

Marvel Cinematic Universe


Mandarin

* In interviews, Kevin Feige suggested that Killian built his idea of the Mandarin from legends he had heard, and hinted that the audience should believe in the strong possibility that there may be a comic-book-accurate person known as the Mandarin within the MCU.

• * Ben Kingsley reprises his role as Slattery in the Marvel One-Shot short All Hail the King,in which the character is imprisoned following the events of Iron Man 3, until he is kidnapped by agents of the real Mandarin.

I have to checkout this one shot film later.
I still have not done it yet.

This has been reported on before.

Except there's absolutely nothing in Iron Man 3 to suggest or prove this. We see the 10 Rings logo but that's it. Downey makes no mention of 10 Rings being behind his kidnapping in the first film or investigating any connection between Killian and that group. The All Hail the King thing is pretty useless because there's no evidence Marvel is ever going to revisit the "real Mandarin." So called scoopers said real Mandarin would be in Age of Ultron. That was fake. That short was just a consolation prize to fans who were disappointed with Iron Man 3.

But then what was the point of Iron Man 3? Oh, there's actually a real 10 Rings and Mandarin, but times are too sensitive to address the character. So we'll just say there's a "real" Mandarin out there and leave it to your imaginations.

It's nice of Kevin Feige to be diplomatic and say that, but it doesn't really mean anything at the end of the day. Especially considering when Shane Black has basically said, Killian at the end is your Mandarin.

 

[MbJ]

A lot of people were disappointed with the Mandarin twist and it's one of the most criticized elements of the film.

Some hardcore fans on the internet were uspet; most people had no idea who Mandarin was before the movie and didn't really care. Just like you had people outraged that Hawkeye doesn't wear a purple mask, that Ant-Man and the Wasp weren't founding members of the Avengers or that Tony Stark built Ultron instead of Hank Pym.

 

[TheVileOne]

Don't forget Hawkeye having a wife and kids.

 

[SirStrangefolk]

I think a lot of people were also upset about the Mandarin because he was set up to be one thing and turned out to be another, and the 'real' threat of Killian was a let down in the end. I think many people at the end were like "If only this movie had been about Iron Man fighting a mysterious, intimidating terrorist leader played by Ben Kingsley, that would've been so cool. At least it would've been better than that random firebreathing white dude who was mad at Tony for not showing up once."

Probably it could've been better if it was Maya Hansen with Madame Masque-like motivations like the original plan was, before Perlmutter decided female toys wouldn't sell...

 

[TheVileOne]

Also he can breathe fire and only uses that trick once. Why is that? Honestly, I wish we got a legitimate version of Madame Masque in iron Man 3 instead of what we ended up getting. But she needed the mask and everything.

 

[metaphysician]

I think a lot of people were also upset about the Mandarin because he was set up to be one thing and turned out to be another, and the 'real' threat of Killian was a let down in the end. I think many people at the end were like "If only this movie had been about Iron Man fighting a mysterious, intimidating terrorist leader played by Ben Kingsley, that would've been so cool. At least it would've been better than that random firebreathing white dude who was mad at Tony for not showing up once."

Probably it could've been better if it was Maya Hansen with Madame Masque-like motivations like the original plan was, before Perlmutter decided female toys wouldn't sell...

I continue to boggle about this. Every single way in which the "Mandarin" was a threat really did exist. It was just being done by Killian. Who, in addition to masterminding that, was also building an army of superhumans, and made himself into someone who can tear Starktech armor in half.

 

[Bayne]

I continue to boggle about this. Every single way in which the "Mandarin" was a threat really did exist. It was just being done by Killian. Who, in addition to masterminding that, was also building an army of superhumans, and made himself into someone who can tear Starktech armor in half.

Apocalypse was literally tearing the world apart in the last X-men movie, but that doesn't mean he came anywhere close to being as good a villain as Zemo or Ledger's Joker, despite both of them having much smaller master plans. There's a lot more to being a great villain than just being dangerous, and Killian did not have it.

 

[DrCosmic]

Apocalypse was literally tearing the world apart in the last X-men movie, but that doesn't mean he came anywhere close to being as good a villain as Zemo or Ledger's Joker, despite both of them having much smaller master plans. There's a lot more to being a great villain than just being dangerous, and Killian did not have it.

Except for Killian was incredibly subversive and personal. Not only was he an avatar of corporate terrorism theater, which is a thing that we still haven't really addressed as a society, but he is the only villain that Tony created that didn't hate him for it, but instead offered him a job. He wasn't as subversive and personal as Zemo, Joker or even Loki, but he beats the pants of Malekith, Iron Monger, Whiplash, Ronan, Yellowjacket, Red Skull, even Ultron and theoretical "real" Mandarin.

I think a lot of people were also upset about the Mandarin because he was set up to be one thing and turned out to be another, and the 'real' threat of Killian was a let down in the end. I think many people at the end were like "If only this movie had been about Iron Man fighting a mysterious, intimidating terrorist leader played by Ben Kingsley, that would've been so cool. At least it would've been better than that random firebreathing white dude who was mad at Tony for not showing up once."

Probably it could've been better if it was Maya Hansen with Madame Masque-like motivations like the original plan was, before Perlmutter decided female toys wouldn't sell...

While giving Rebecca Hall the part she signed up for would've been awesome, I think part of why people don't love Killian is because they believe he was mad at Tony, even though he expresses the exact opposite. It's very rewarding to me, to see that in the character without it having to be spelled out, but perhaps in this instance they should have dumbed him down a bit so that so many people wouldn't have this misconception and paint what was an emulation of Tony as some kind of revenge scheme.

 

[chamber-music]

Marvel's number of Asian male major characters has gone up recently with Wong, Jimmy Woo, Ned Leeds and Microbe.