Race Changing and Diversity in Superhero Movies.

[DoubleO88]

Not sure if this is the best place but considering this video is based primarily on the rumours of Miles Morales and/or a black Peter Parker I thought it be relevant here.

I wanted to type what I thought but all my thought's on this are in this video I made and I'd be eager to see what peoples feelings are and what races you guys all are too.

 

[Rorschach2012]

watched the whole video, and agreed 100% with you. great video. just like you said, the right thing to do is put existing minority heroes into the forefront instead of altering existing white characters. There are plenty of amazing minority heroes that just havent been given a chance to shine yet. After we see faithful interpretations of Luke Cage, Black Panther, Blade, Static, Cyborg, and John Stewart, there will be far less complaints about diversity in the movies.

 

[TheVileOne]

Thanks for posting. Good points, and I'm glad we can have a civil discussion about this.

 

[Chance Jackson]

Re-posting what I posted on the youtube video:

While I agree with desire to see properties adapted into all other forms of media I disagree with you on pretty much every other point

MCU characters aren't that accurate they take lots of liberties that turn out for the best. MCU Tony's characterization for example is nothing like 616 and is instead taken from Ultimate with an RDJ bent while his origin and supporting characters are taken from 616 with lots of liberties taken.

Wouldn't cast a blond kid as Peter Parker? Do you have a problem with Steve Rogers being a brunette on screen? He's always been the ironic uber white ubermench The Nazi have wanted but fighting against them. Why is Green Lantern allowed to be a legacy super hero who can have a black character wear the mantle but Spider-man isn't? Spider-man has been a legacy character for a few decades now.

You say you have a problem with black characters riding white character's coattails but Ultimate Nick Fury is ok? and War Machine is ok? They both are "2nd best" extensions of white characters to the type of people who complain about race changing whether it be in re-imagined comicbook universe or adapted to new media.

You are also very WRONG about Black Panther he was not named after either Black Panther Party he PREDATES them http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Panther_(comics)#Concept_and_creation do NOT spread misinformation! You being a black conservative will provide lots of cover for racists and racialist propaganda in the future if they can use you as evidence for their screeds so at least try to be responsible.

Finally much of the point of adapting an intellectual property is benefiting from a strong pre-existing fan base and the positive word of mouth that comes from adapting it with that hence why taking characters Marvel and DC have pumped decades worth of ongoing comicbook lines into will always be a superior option than taking a character they have neglected and not given enough time to establish an audience. I say continue to bring on the diversity and there is no such thing as fake diversity.

 

[def28]

Always a tough topic but here's my opinon on the subject...

Spoiler

Growing up in the 90s my favorite Comic flicks were Batman(Returns), The Crow, Zorro, Blade and Spawn. I never saw the issue of ethnicity as a kid/teen in comic films or thought about it much. If a character did not have the same skin color (white) as me it never meant I couldn't relate, or that I wanted to see said character looking like me. I liked them regardless. The current diversity issue just never crossed my mind back then, they were all diverse from the get go to me.

With comic fans we like what we are used to. If the next Catwoman was casted as a black actress I wouldn't second guess it. Cause I've seen that done before in tv, comics and (a terrible) film. It's in my brain that Catwoman has been white and black. I think the same can go for future generations regarding other characters if hispanic, black or asian actors are cast for roles that were always known as white characters for this generation. Same goes for comics and cartoons. If someone like say Psylocke is cast as either asian or white we know why as fans. Maybe the changing of ethnicity won't matter right away but future kids growing up will be more likely to accept it and not look at it like this character should be only white or only black etc.

Changing Peter Parker's ethnicity right now is a bit tricky. Mainly because the MCU needs to escape an Origin. And rightfully so. If they switch Parker's ethnicity in a film this quick, then that will confuse the audience and be a huge distraction. There needs to be a somewhat light connection to what audience's know about Parker in order for this to play right with how quick they are introducing him imo. If they ever did change his ethnicity it should be because they have had enough time to completely retell Parker's story/Origin and that a non white actor was just the better choice during casting due to talent.

When it comes to Miles Morales yeah, half these internet heads don't know what's up. He relies way too much on Parker for his story to be done right and should be a character that is set up properly and is passed the torch down the line. We have not even seen Parker with Black Cat yet. Or Kraven. Anyone saying Petter Parker only has 5 stories in film (3 of them meh to ******) doesn't know wtf they are talking about. This is Marvels Bruce Wayne, and has over 50 years of story. Getting rid of Parker kills all the connections to main villains, love interets and other Spider characters so any argument against him imo are just plain odd.

The main thing the internet needs to realize is that these are two characters that can sell better together. Not one or the other. People def need to look at the stories and debate those ahead of anything. After this huge deal has finnaly been made Marvel would be idiots to think they need only one character from the Spideys verse. Sony wants to expand, and characters like Miles are an excellent way to do that. They would be fools not to have them team up in the future.

I see Nick Fury, Black Panther, Falcon, War Machine and Luke Cage all having (or have had) a strong place in the MCU. There's a good selection of black characters there. And I agree they need to make characters like these the iconic ones instead of being focused on making white chaacters black. They are pretty significant characters in my book and for the most part (more War Machine!) I love how the ones introduced have been portrayed. Falcon is all class, and if that guy ever replaces Cap, then the right guy got the gig. It's not cause of his skin color but because of the character. Right from the first two scenes where Cap and him meet you know that this is a character with the same moral, heroism and integrity as himself. Winter Soldier got this this character so right!

Right now in the MCU Avenger films everyone is pretty much white or black males. There's not much of any other ethnicity here for lead or strong supporting males, and when it comes to lead females it's even more slim. Ms Marvel and Wasp are gonna be white. Misty Knight hopefully will pop up in the films but probably more so TV. Maybe we will get the hispanic White Tiger but pretty much every female role is gonna be white for the next five years. At the moment those internet divirsity heavy hitters are not paying attention to the other minorities and thats the major issue imo.

 

[Protar]

My opinion on the matter is that it's fine. In fact I believe that save for those circumstances in which a character's whiteness is integral to their story, the casting calls for all caucasian characters from the comics being adapted from now on, should look at actors from all ethnicities.

I can understand the reluctance some people have towards it. You want to see your favourite characters on screen as they are in the comics. I get that, and I was thinking about how I would react if some of my own writing was one day adapted on screen and my characters where racebent. It would feel weird. However, I think there is a bigger picture than completely appeasing the core fanbase (who probably won't be entirely pleased anyway). Injecting a bit of diversity into the films is more important than that. And besides which you're never going to get an exact representation anyway. Most male actors don't have V-shaped torsos, most female actors aren't sporting E-cups. Where we draw the line between what is and isn't an accurate representation is totally arbitrary.

It's all well and good to say "let's just adapt the pre-existing ethnic characters on screen!" But if you actually look at those characters, it's a very small well to draw from. Here's Wikipedia's list of Black Superheroes: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_black_superheroes#Marvel_Comics

The amount of actually major/semi-major characters there that Marvel has the rights to is pitiful. Seriously actually looking at that list shocked me. War Machine, Falcon, Luke Cage, Nick Fury, Black Panther, Blade, Miles Morales, Deathlok, Patriot, Misty Knight. That's really it.

I think the end goal should be getting more ethnic lead film franchises in the MCU. So let's look at that. Black Panther is getting his own franchise. That's great. and Luke Cage is getting his own TV show. Blade could get a film series too. But that's it for the near future. War Machine, Fury and Falcon are already in the MCU (As prominent characters even if they aren't leads), as is Deathlok. War Machine is almost certainly dying in AoU, and Bucky seems to be the one who will take up the mantle of Captain America for the next several movies. Deathlok is a footnote. If Peter Parker is the MCU's Spiderman we probably won't be seeing Miles Morales as the lead for a over a decade. Misty Knight is probably more for SHIELD than the films. That leaves Patriot and I find it unlikely that they will introduce another potential future Captain America when we already have two. Not for many years.

You simply can't get any decent amount of representation by only casting those Superheroes who are minorities in the comics.

 

[def28]

Why are you only considering Black characters out of curiosity?

Cloak and Alex from the Runaways are also great characters I see being used in the future.

 

[Protar]

Why are you only considering Black characters out of curiosity?

I was just giving one example there, as black representation is the hot topic everyone's talking about and usually what people think of first when people say diversity. I've actually suggested an asian actor - Ryan Potter - for Spiderman. I think all ethnicities should be represented and considered for roles. That should be a mixture of casting the in-comic ethnic characters like T'chala, Kamala Khan etc. and racebending.

 

[def28]

But how does the MCU look when we take all ethnicities/minorities into consideration with potential franchises?

Just adding something like Runaways would include an Asian lead with a Black, Hispanic and Lesbian main cast.

Not saying it solves everything btw.

 

[Protar]

But how does the MCU look when we take all ethnicities/minorities into consideration with potential franchises?

Just adding something like Runaways would include an Asian lead with a Black, Hispanic and Lesbian main cast.

Not saying it solves everything btw.

Well it's like, less than a third of the population of the USA is made up of straight, white, cisgendered, able-bodied white men. And I'm not saying that representation has to always be exactly that ratio - some stories lend themselves to more white characters, some to more ethnic characters, some to more sexual minorities* etc. But that's the sort of ballpark that we should be looking at I think.

But of course not all bits of representation are equal. Spiderman being cast as an ethnic minority would mean much more for diversity than Falcon's role as Cap's sidekick for example.

*Speaking of sexual minorities this is even more of a problem as changing the sexuality of a character means you also have to change the sexuality and/or gender of their love interests. And it could also be argued that sexuality is more integral to one's person than race. So there's even less of an opportunity for change here because it creates a domino effect and no longer becomes just an incidental change.

 

[DA_Champion]

I think it would be good if there were more diversity in comic book adaptations.

 

[def28]

Well it's like, less than a third of the population of the USA is made up of straight, white, cisgendered, able-bodied white men. And I'm not saying that representation has to always be exactly that ratio - some stories lend themselves to more white characters, some to more ethnic characters, some to more sexual minorities* etc. But that's the sort of ballpark that we should be looking at I think.

But of course not all bits of representation are equal. Spiderman being cast as an ethnic minority would mean much more for diversity than Falcon's role as Cap's sidekick for example.

*Speaking of sexual minorities this is even more of a problem as changing the sexuality of a character means you also have to change the sexuality and/or gender of their love interests. And it could also be argued that sexuality is more integral to one's person than race. So there's even less of an opportunity for change here because it creates a domino effect and no longer becomes just an incidental change.

But when Parker goes back to being white (which eventually would happen) is it really better then establishing characters like Black Panther, Falcon, Miles Morales etc?

Making a larger impact/presence out of those characters would seem a larger win to me. What's the overal goal?

In the long the run I would think it would be for equality casting all around be it black, asian or white that people wouldn't question. Just cast a net and let the best actor win. Nobody thinks twice about it. For black characters in general though it's better for Falcon, Miles and BP to make a name for themselves no? Cause those roles won't be cast with white actors.

 

[metaphysician]

My answer is as it always has been: "depends on the character". Some characters can be changed to whatever race or ethnicity you want. Some characters absolutely must be one specific race/ethnicity. Some characters have some leeway, but not an infinite amount.

This means, for example, that Daredevil can be any race, as long as you can credibly sell him as "inner city Catholic boy of lower class upbringing". Batman, meanwhile, really has to be the WASPiest WASP who ever WASPed. Spider-man. . . doesn't *have* to be white, but if you change his race, you need to be cautious you don't accidentally make his buzzard luck come off as societal racism rather than karma.

 

[DA_Champion]

My answer is as it always has been: "depends on the character". Some characters can be changed to whatever race or ethnicity you want. Some characters absolutely must be one specific race/ethnicity. Some characters have some leeway, but not an infinite amount.

This means, for example, that Daredevil can be any race, as long as you can credibly sell him as "inner city Catholic boy of lower class upbringing". Batman, meanwhile, really has to be the WASPiest WASP who ever WASPed. Spider-man. . . doesn't *have* to be white, but if you change his race, you need to be cautious you don't accidentally make his buzzard luck come off as societal racism rather than karma.

That's a good point, Batman needs to be white.

 

[Protar]

But when Parker goes back to being white (which eventually would happen) is it really better then establishing characters like Black Panther, Falcon, Miles Morales etc?

Making a larger impact/presence out of those characters would seem a larger win to me. What's the overal goal?

In the long the run I would think it would be for equality casting all around be it black, asian or white that people wouldn't question. Just cast a net and let the best actor win. Nobody thinks twice about it. For black characters in general though it's better for Falcon, Miles and BP to make a name for themselves no? Cause those roles won't be cast with white actors.

Why would you think that Peter would eventually revert to being white? I'm talking about the films here. They cast a black person as Peter and that's who's playing Peter, the end.

It is important to also establish ethnic characters from the comics but there truly aren't that many. You can only get a truly representative amount of diversity if you change some white characters to minorities.

 

[def28]

Why would you think that Peter would eventually revert to being white? I'm talking about the films here. They cast a black person as Peter and that's who's playing Peter, the end.

So Peter Parker is black and no other actors of another ethnicity can get a shot in the next 50 (or whatever) years of filmmaking

If Peter Parker's ethnicity is switched there is nothing saying he can't be Indian in the next installment. Or Asian. Or White, which is alot more likely since he's been white for over 50 years as well as white in the past 2 film series.

If you mean they actually want to have Parker be Black for the rest of his life. Then yeah that's an extremely solid win for the black community. But I don't see how that works for the favor of diversity...

 

[DA_Champion]

Don't worry about the next reboot, just focus on this upcoming reboot imo.

 

[MakeMinesMarvel]

Majority of film's and tv and people writing the shows and directing and everything involved from ceos and presidents are Caucasian. It is what it is probably will never change I honestly don't care. But when one freaking role is changed its n word this n word that on Twitter etc I really hate that. I'm rooting for you MBJ!

 

[Protar]

So Peter Parker is black and no other actors of another ethnicity can get a shot in the next 50 (or whatever) years of filmmaking

If Peter Parker's ethnicity is switched there is nothing saying he can't be Indian in the next installment. Or Asian. Or White, which is alot more likely since he's been white for over 50 years as well as white in the past 2 film series.

If you mean they actually want to have Parker be Black for the rest of his life. Then yeah that's an extremely solid win for the black community. But I don't see how that works for the favor of diversity...

I'm just talking about the MCU. Who can say what things will be like 50 years down the line when the MCU is most likely no longer here, but whatever ethnicity Peter is cast as in the MCU that's what they're sticking with. Hopefully because they won't be recasting their heroes anyway. Just as Tony Stark will always be white.

 

[def28]

I'm just talking about the MCU. Who can say what things will be like 50 years down the line when the MCU is most likely no longer here, but whatever ethnicity Peter is cast as in the MCU that's what they're sticking with. Hopefully because they won't be recasting their heroes anyway. Just as Tony Stark will always be white.

I guess cause I think how things will be in 30-50 years will be important. If Peter Parker can change ethnicities now then he can later as well. Which would be a huge win in this whole debate of characters changing ethnicities. Case would be closed.

But For the black characters in particular I see establishing a character like Black Panther as a much more important franchise name at the moment.

 

[Protar]

I guess cause I think how things will be in 30-50 years will be important. If Peter Parker can change ethnicities now then he can later as well. Which would be a huge win in this whole debate of characters changing ethnicities. Case would be closed.

But For the black characters in particular I see establishing a character like Black Panther as a much more important franchise name at the moment.

I do think that it is most important to establish original black characters. But there simply aren't enough of them from the comics to adapt into the MCU. Hopefully 50 years down the line we will be at the point where things are diverse enough that it would not be a step backwards for Peter to revert to being white in film. For now I think we should just look at the MCU.

Hopefully there will be a greater level of synergy between the comics and the films. Marvel can create comic characters with the express purpose of introducing them into the MCU. The GotG where only from 2008, so I don't think that's far fetched. Introduce characters and then a couple years later announce their films.

 

[Chance Jackson]

So Peter Parker is black and no other actors of another ethnicity can get a shot in the next 50 (or whatever) years of filmmaking

If Peter Parker's ethnicity is switched there is nothing saying he can't be Indian in the next installment. Or Asian. Or White, which is alot more likely since he's been white for over 50 years as well as white in the past 2 film series.

your not wrong but

Don't worry about the next reboot, just focus on this upcoming reboot imo.

this

 

[def28]

I do think that it is most important to establish original black characters. But there simply aren't enough of them from the comics to adapt into the MCU. Hopefully 50 years down the line we will be at the point where things are diverse enough that it would not be a step backwards for Peter to revert to being white in film. For now I think we should just look at the MCU.

Hopefully there will be a greater level of synergy between the comics and the films. Marvel can create comic characters with the express purpose of introducing them into the MCU. The GotG where only from 2008, so I don't think that's far fetched. Introduce characters and then a couple years later announce their films.

There are quite a few though that they can focus on, much more so then any other minority at the moment. Overall I just want to see this issue looked at as a whole. Not just black males, lets get some black women in there too and some of the other minorities. Besides AOS I don't think there is anything. Definitely gonna be some race changing in the next 5 years. It's unavoidable imo.

I agree with the comics, I think creating new characters is one of the most important things they can do right now. And it's playing strong at the moment. Kamala is a great example of that.

 

[Protar]

On occasion I've wondered whether Marvel might have the rights to Storm. Almost certainly not, but I've entertained the possibility in the past that it may be a scenario like Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch. Despite her ties to the X-men she also has strong ties to Black Panther - being married to him. If that was the case Storm could easily carry her own franchise.

The X-men not being part of the MCU is a big hurdle for diversity, as typically they've been one of Marvel's most diverse properties.

 

[cronosred]

Why is it people automatically go with black when talking about racebending characters. If Peter Parker has to have a race change shouldn't we be pulling for a Native American to get the part since their even less represented on screen?