Rate MAN OF STEEL......once and for all

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I thought Ayelet Zurer was great.

Easily the worst actress in the movie.

If she came off as despondent when the planet was blowing up it's because that's what the story called for.

She came off as unconvincing and overdramatic.

How do you know that Clark left Lois to freeze to death?

Because he did?

Did she die?

...you do realize that leaving someone somewhere to die doesn't always result in them dying, right?
 
Easily the worst actress in the movie.



She came off as unconvincing and overdramatic.



Because he did?



...you do realize that leaving someone somewhere to die doesn't always result in them dying, right?

Unless he didn't actually leave her out to die. :p
 
Do you really think that I believe Clark intended for Lois to die? As in, he purposely abandoned her and hoped that she would perish? No. I was being facetious to point out the absurdity of his actions. My point is that she easily could have died out there, and him just leaving her laying in the snow like that, without making sure she made it back to the base safely, was beyond irresponsible.
 
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Do you really think that I believe Clark intended for Lois to die? As in, he purposely abandoned her and hoped that she would perish? No. I was being facetious to point out the absurdity of his actions. My point is that she easily could have died out there, and him just leaving her laying in the snow like that, without making sure she made it back to the base safely, was beyond irresponsible.

You missed my post before that.

He stayed with her until well after dawn, and left only when the rescue team was very close by. There was no leaving her to the fates in the elements.
 
You missed my post before that.

Sorry about that.

He stayed with her until well after dawn, and left only when the rescue team was very close by. There was no leaving her to the fates in the elements.

No, he didn't. The ship took off while it was still nighttime. Lois wasn't discovered until morning.
 
According to the poll 89 people thought this was excellent, and 48 thought it was very good, yet it's the detractors who are the loudest in this thread.
 
Watching it again right now, it's one of those films I always feel the need to watch more than once. Watched it 3 times in the past week.
 
Btw hopeful dreamer, every movie ever made requires you to fill in the blanks, that's how human communication works, we fill in blanks using models of the world. We never communicate every detail.
 
Do you really think that I believe Clark intended for Lois to die? As in, he purposely abandoned her and hoped that she would perish? No. I was being facetious to point out the absurdity of his actions. My point is that she easily could have died out there, and him just leaving her laying in the snow like that, without making sure she made it back to the base safely, was beyond irresponsible.

She was perfectly fine and five minutes prior the movie establishes that Clark takes care of Lois by cauterizing her aside from him taking care of other people. When Lois is found she is perfectly fine, no frost bite nothing.

So you really shouldn't need to be shown that he left her in a safe position.

What you're asking for is 15 seconds of expository dialogue between Clark and Ghost El saying "let's make sure Lois is warm" when really it's utterly necessary. If that was in there people would complain about pacing issues and too much exposition.
 
Easily the worst actress in the movie.



She came off as unconvincing and overdramatic.



Because he did?



...you do realize that leaving someone somewhere to die doesn't always result in them dying, right?

It's a dramatic situation. No Kryptonian woman has had a baby in 1000 years, and she is sending him hakfway across the galaxy because her planet is about to blow up.
 
She was perfectly fine...

Irrelevant. The point is that she easily could have died.

and five minutes prior the movie establishes that Clark takes care of Lois by cauterizing her aside from him taking care of other people. When Lois is found she is perfectly fine, no frost bite nothing.

What does any of that have to do with him leaving her by herself in the freezing cold? His intentions being benevolent don't excuse his actuons from being incompetent.

So you really shouldn't need to be shown that he left her in a safe position.

You kinda do. Otherwise, you get...exactly what we got.

What you're asking for is 15 seconds of expository dialogue between Clark and Ghost El saying "let's make sure Lois is warm" when really it's utterly necessary.

Actually, what I'm asking for is better writing. It wouldn't have taken more than 5 seconds to show Lois waking up in a medical facility.

It's a dramatic situation. No Kryptonian woman has had a baby in 1000 years, and she is sending him hakfway across the galaxy because her planet is about to blow up.

When an actor is described as giving an overdramatic performance, it means that they did a poor job of expressing emotion without it being obvious that they're acting.
 
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So basically, lets change the fundamental appeal of a character because Marvin likes things different for the sake of being different. And if you actually like the fundamental appeal of Superman and don't need to see it changed, you must be lacking imagination.

The thing is, no matter the style or tone, the fundamental appeal of any character can remain. There's nothing unimaginative about that.

Let's try, if you say it can't work any other way than they way you deem, you are lacking in imagination. More accurately, if you say serious can't be mixed with over the top(punching and explosions), you are lacking in imagination.
I'm not the one putting out restrictions on what is acceptable or not. Rather being...open.

As for liking things simply because they are different and not simply due to there inherent qualities..I'd say try harder next time.
 
Let's try, if you say it can't work any other way than they way you deem, you are lacking in imagination. More accurately, if you say serious can't be mixed with over the top(punching and explosions), you are lacking in imagination.

Well, thankfully, no one in the thread has actually said it can't work any other way than the way they want. And I can't speak for Human Torch, so I won't make assumptions on what he meant when he expressed that he felt a style clash between nolan and snyder.

I'm not the one putting out restrictions on what is acceptable or not. Rather being...open.

People were rather open to MOS until it came out. This myth that a serious Superman film was not going to be universally accepted has got to stop being perpetuated, and its mainly perpetuated by people who clearly don't understand that not everyone who has gripes with MOS have the same exact gripes.
 
Well, thankfully, no one in the thread has actually said it can't work any other way than the way they want. And I can't speak for Human Torch, so I won't make assumptions on what he meant when he expressed that he felt a style clash between nolan and snyder.
I can only respond to the words that are typed.

People were rather open to MOS until it came out. This myth that a serious Superman film was not going to be universally accepted has got to stop being perpetuated, and its mainly perpetuated by people who clearly don't understand that not everyone who has gripes with MOS have the same exact gripes.
They were open to it under the assumption it was going to give them what they wanted. What is it they wanted? I skim through hopeful's posts towards me and I get a pretty vivid picture.
You throw around this concept that people were open to change simply because MOS trailers didn't look like the stuff that came before... So they were open to a superman the killed, I hear tell that's simply something he doesn't do and the few times he's done it before it was also whack... A Jon Kent that wasn't tying the cape around Clark;s neck perhaps? Point being, you keep saying this but I'm not seeing it. People endorsed the film cause they were under the assumption it would be a 'superman film' and by that I mean it would fit their definition of what that is. The film simply looking different than usual doesn't all of a sudden mean those preconceptions were left at the gate. They were selling a blank canvas.

I feel the same way about my own projections upon receiving the Batman Begins trailers. To me that still isn't a batman movie I can fully endorse and I freely admit it's because I love what I love. But hey I cheered the trailers when I saw them so hey I'm was/am fully open to the nolame characterization...
 
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The difference is, it's an origin movie. Origin movies are about HOW the hero became the hero.
That something should adhere to conventions, such as the 'cbm rules of an origin story' is entirely subjective. Case in point: people tell unconventional stories all the times and they tell them in unconventional ways. People make unconventional films as well. That's my immediate respond to your statement.
If the hero became the man he is because he was raised in a warm and loving environment, then you should SHOW that warm and loving environment as part of the heroes origin tale. If it's a HUGE part of how he became the hero (which I believe it is), you give it a fair amount of screen time. You don't just mention it in passing or allude to it slightly.
It failed you because it didn't do something which you believe it should have. That's my understanding. That being said, I personally think they showed plenty of his loving environment. I think the simple fact that he witnessed his own father die for him is indicative of that which you claim isn't present(on screen). I'm having a hard time naming other super heroes having their parent(s) sacrificed their lives literally for hero in question(save for naruto and potter to an extent). You brushing off what was shown is your prerogative but I have the grounds to assert that it was there. Now it's a matter of debating if there is enough...which is always fun btw. Either way, that should put to rest this idea that "it wasn't there".
That they lifted the father son hugging/crying in the cornfields scene from secret origins...
You've basically got a kid who is desperate to connect with a Dad that's kind of distant and so bogged down in fear and pessimism about humanity that he ends up stunting his sons capacity to be heroic. He still can't help himself, but his early heroism isn't a product of his family's support and encouragement... it's DESPITE his family's dissaproval and discouragement.
Let's pursue this idea of discouragement(though I personally only see disapproval of early exposure). What exactly is the qualm with this? For example if we look at the Steven Rogers paradigm, you find inspiration in a man/hero that persisted in the face of constant discouragement and harshness of environment to become a 'really good person/hero'. I have to assume this is the part where one downplays this direction when applied to superman, in favor of the tried and true approach that has been applied to him in the past? Which is why I always advocate for inherent value.
Looking further into Steve Rogers, you have someone that simply cannot find a way to contribute until the joseph campbell character shows up and gives him a way, enlightenment (and an extra push in the right direction, maybe even a costume). Both Steve and Clark doing good deeds leading up to and before this opportuinty(Clark doing more of course).
Again, I ask, just what is so wrong with this approach other then that it's different? Is it because you feel that if clark doens't get the encouragement during his young 'human' life than the turn to hero is a product of Jor? Because I would argue, that like Rogers, he's the hero long before that. Jor only proves an avenue(just like Eskire).

I think Batman Begins did a very good job of showing the loving relationship between Bruce and his father, and how good a man his father was.

FYI the stethoscope scene is still one of my favorite parts of the film. It's just such a sweet moment.
Yes, they showed the love between the two. However, they never showed two seconds of Thomas encouraging his son to go out and fight crime(or equivalent stakes JK was referring to). They focused on the love between a father and son. I argue when it comes to that aspect alone, MOS delivers. Jon loved his son and his son loved him back surely you argree. This isn't just some inferred insight, it's right there in all their scenes together.
You opened this discussion talking about how that was key to superman being both superman and having humanity in your opinion, and here we are.
 
People wouldn't have an issue with the changes if the film was executed better. I'm of the opinion people would have been far more forgiving of the films flaws had it stuck to the traditional Superman approach, because at the very least there would have been a sense of familiarity to it. But because the film is far from perfect in its execution those changes to the traditional Superman are amplified 10-fold because not only are people not getting a satisfying story, they're not even being afforded seeing an interpretation of a character they've known for their entire life. Essentially there's nothing positive to grab onto. If the film was brilliant all around people wouldn't have harped on about how Superman is 'suppose' to be because they'd be too busy heaping praise on what a wonderful reinvention of the character it was. If you're a director and want to take an established character in a new direction it's execution dependant, you can't produce something half baked and then wonder why people are complaining.
 
People wouldn't have an issue with the changes if the film was executed better. I'm of the opinion people would have been far more forgiving of the films flaws had it stuck to the traditional Superman approach, because at the very least there would have been a sense of familiarity to it. But because the film is far from perfect in its execution those changes to the traditional Superman are amplified 10-fold because not only are people not getting a satisfying story, they're not even being afforded seeing an interpretation of a character they've known for their entire life. Essentially there's nothing positive to grab onto. If the film was brilliant all around people wouldn't have harped on about how Superman is 'suppose' to be because they'd be too busy heaping praise on what a wonderful reinvention of the character it was. If you're a director and want to take an established character in a new direction it's execution dependant, you can't produce something half baked and then wonder why people are complaining.
Reading the posts I was referring to, the ones with the supposed 'this is the actual issue with the film'....I'm having a hard time accepting your statement at the moment. Unlike alot of other stuff, Superman has very deep and clear mandates. Mandates 'everybody knows' and that have shown little celebrated leeway and change throughout the years(unlike bats). So much so that "everyone can agree and point out what wasn't on point, or what isn't getting the character". You have more leeway with something like Bond or Batman etc. Just saying, I'm not so sure about the bolded. They supposedly turned a wish fulfillment character into a 20th century hero after all. And that's stated as a critique apparently.

Secondly, damn straight a director can wonder why his audience is complaining about stuff outside of his execution and hinging upon change. It's his basic right imo. Especially when just how half baked said execution is, is hardly agreed upon. See split reception scores.
 
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Again, it all comes down to execution, you're not placing any blame on the film by saying things like audiences preconceived notion are why they don't like it or that Superman is a less flexible character, that's letting the filmmakers off. A good creative team would have understood what people's perception of Superman would be and found a way to be creative with it and maybe even change people opinions of the character. It goes from being 'That's not Superman' to 'I've never thought of Superman like that before'. If you execute an idea well preconceived opinions generally will play less of a part in critique of the film, again because they're not thinking about what could have been, they're thinking about how good it was.
 
Again, it all comes down to execution, you're not placing any blame on the film by saying things like audiences preconceived notion are why they don't like it or that Superman is a less flexible character, that's letting the filmmakers off. A good creative team would have understood what people's perception of Superman would be and found a way to be creative with it and maybe even change people opinions of the character. It goes from being 'That's not Superman' to 'I've never thought of Superman like that before'. If you execute an idea well preconceived opinions generally will play less of a part in critique of the film, again because they're not thinking about what could have been, they're thinking about how good it was.

Me giving the film what I give it is me placing blame on the film. Me addressing(admitted) notions, is me discussing the merit of those notions. These things have no place in film discussions has always been my stance, mainly because not everyone in the GA has remotely the same palette thus it's best to receive what's infront of you for it's own merits.

I've never thought of superman like that before is alot easier to do when you don't cross supposed lines in sand. I'm talking about the fact that this even exits...
For example again, Stark killed his enemy in the third film with extreme prejudice(won't get started on these other heroes). Not one mention of morality or if killing is wrong or if it was earned or set up or payed off...This goes beyond simple execution, and directly into why it is not even broached in these other instances; It's because of the existence of these mandates is why. That's great that Snyder could have finessed and danced around this better but that he even has to where others don't is what's on trial here.
imo
 
Again, it all comes down to execution, you're not placing any blame on the film by saying things like audiences preconceived notion are why they don't like it or that Superman is a less flexible character, that's letting the filmmakers off. A good creative team would have understood what people's perception of Superman would be and found a way to be creative with it and maybe even change people opinions of the character. It goes from being 'That's not Superman' to 'I've never thought of Superman like that before'. If you execute an idea well preconceived opinions generally will play less of a part in critique of the film, again because they're not thinking about what could have been, they're thinking about how good it was.

Exhibit A: Casino Royale. The build up and release of this movie was the polar opposite of MoS, whereby most folks broke out the pitchforks and torches the moment Craig had been cast, but were blown away once the film dropped. It was a phenomenon exactly as jmc stated above in that people had never thought of Bond like that before, and were pleasantly surprised at the outcome. For many of us, Man of Steel didn't do this, and it had very little to do with expectations, but rather, execution as jmc said.

Marvin, I think it's pretty disrespectful of you to insist that the chief reason people didn't like the movie is because it didn't match up with their expectations. That's not even fair, and how is one supposed to respond to that exactly? Seems like with every retort that's sent your way, you simply reply with "You just didn't get what you wanted to see, that's all."

There are too many examples of satisfying movies subverting expectations for that line of thinking to work as an argument.
 
Me giving the film what I give it is me placing blame on the film. Me addressing(admitted) notions, is me discussing the merit of those notions. These things have no place in film discussions has always been my stance, mainly because not everyone in the GA has remotely the same palette thus it's best to receive what's infront of you for it's own merits.

I've never thought of superman like that before is alot easier to do when you don't cross supposed lines in sand. I'm talking about the fact that this even exits...
For example again, Stark killed his enemy in the third film with extreme prejudice(won't get started on these other heroes). Not one mention of morality or if killing is wrong or if it was earned or set up or payed off...This goes beyond simple execution, and directly into why it is not even broached in these other instances; It's because of the existence of these mandates is why. That's great that Snyder could have finessed and danced around this better but that he even has to where others don't is what's on trial here.
imo

I can admit Superman's greatest drawback is the fact he is held to a higher standard. It might be unfair but that's the way it is and we have to live with that. But you're also not a slave to that standard. If you want to do something different you are entitled to do it, but the risk is if you take something that people are familiar with and want to do something different to it you have to get everything about the film and story right otherwise you risk greater rejection than you would with a more conventional telling. If you do it wrong the audience has nothing to cling on to, they have neither a recognizable character nor a satisfying story, instead they have this new thing that kinda looks like something they know in a story that isn't well told.
 
Posters like Flint marko disagree.He thinks its evenly split.
I've always said that the reception has been mixed. That's clear in terms of critical and online reception. The fact that we are having this discussion kinda supports that idea. And clearly it bothered you enough to make a poll, which says something. But I'm honestly not sure if I've ever claimed that most people "hate the movie", as you said in an earlier post. If I have I don't recall saying that, but I really don't think I ever did.
Like i said reported it to the mods.Its legit from what they can see

If the mods have really weighed in and said that then I'm not going to push the issue any further, but I think it's undeniable that the poll jumping so highly for one option in such a short amount of time is, at the very least, suspicious. You would without a doubt be saying the same thing if the results didn't skew in your favor, and I'd be agreeing with you because it is objectively eyebrow-raising.
 
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I am a little bit surprised as there are so many people here who like this movie - i do not know one who likes this movie above average.

I think it is an average (comic) movie, and it should have been much better!
 
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