Rate MAN OF STEEL......once and for all

[Tempest]

So does anyone have a scene in particular that they love?

My own personal favorite scene is when Clark discovers the secret his parents have been keeping from him. I loved that moment.

And the oil rig scene. Those are my two favoritest favorite parts of the film.

 

[BH/HHH]

I could name so many scenes but my absolute favourite is when Superman and Lois are escaping the black zero, Lois is been helped throughout the ship by Jor El and Superman busts out of the straps holding him down and just looks at Jax Ur liked I don't have time for this. Just perfect, including the music.

Second favourite would have to be where he flies for the first time, such a powerful scene.

 

[Rodrigo90]

Basically you're now filling in the holes for yourself in order to get along with the movie

What we were actually shown in the film is Clark being told by Jonathon that being a hero is not only something he shouldn't do, but something that could lead to disastrous consequences because the world 'is not ready'.

And yet, because you feel this makes no sense (rightly so) you are attempting an 'assumption' that this conversation is not an accurate portrayal of their relationship and the way he was raised.

But behind closed doors, and from the evidence that you can piece together, I'm assuming that the Kent's raised Clark in a wholesome manner that would of had a hand in his desire to help people.

But the movie never makes it known if it's because of his powers or just his nature that is the driving force.

And I like to fill in the blanks

I agree with all of that. It was definitely added in for shock value.

I just think that's an empty reason, and a particularly Snyderish one at that.

Not that I usually mind his love of shocking people or being a bit brutal in his movies. But just not this time.

If they had tailored the movie to fit the ending's impact, it would've been fine.

 

[I Am The Knight]

Ok I get it. So Superman is like Jesus, Jonathan is Joseph and Lois is like the ****e, right? I see what Snyder did there

 

[Rodrigo90]

Ok I get it. So Superman is like Jesus, Jonathan is Joseph and Lois is like the ****e, right? I see what Snyder did there

He sees the light! Hallelujah!

 

[Boy Scout]

Superman killing Zod in Superman 2 was treated as a joke, which is why it didn't bother people.

In contrast, in MoS, Superman felt guilty afterwards, and that's why people didn't like the scene.

It took me a while to understand this but here goes: people are not against killing, it's the feeling of guilt that they don't like. This is true in both movies but also in CNN discussions of war.

Maybe. Or perhaps they dislike the scene for the reasons they've given you.

But behind closed doors, and from the evidence that you can piece together, I'm assuming that the Kent's raised Clark in a wholesome manner that would of had a hand in his desire to help people.

The flashbacks painted a picture of a miserable childhood. I would imagine that there was constant pressure from Jonathan to keep his secret a secret and stay away from the other children. It's probably a miracle that Clark grew up to be even a halfway decent person.

If they had tailored the movie to fit the ending's impact, it would've been fine.

If they had explored the emotional consequences of the action, I would have been okay with it. Or at least more okay with it than I am now.

 

[Rodrigo90]

The flashbacks painted a picture of a miserable childhood. I would imagine that there was constant pressure from Jonathan to keep his secret a secret and stay away from the other children. It's probably a miracle that Clark grew up to be even a halfway decent person.

But I could picture something like this

Jonathan: Hey, son...Did you speak with anybody today?
Clark: No
Jonathan: Good...Did you save anybody from any peril?
Clark: I saw an old lady in the middle of the road. She was confused and disorientated...a car hit...I could've saved her...but I didn't.
Jonathan: You did the right thing...wanna go do your choirs, read your bible, say your prayers and come watch the game as a treat?
Clark:...Ok

 

[Boy Scout]

There issue I have with the flashbacks is that almost all of them are depressing. We never see what great and inspirational role models Jonathan and Martha Kent are. We don't even get to see how they function as a family unit. Instead, we're treated to scene after scene of some new misery in Superman's life. If it were up to me, I would have shown Jonathan and Martha having opposing views on raising Clark, with Martha favoring a more optimistic approach.

Basically: If you don't walk away from a Superman movie wishing that you could be a little bit more like Superman, then I think the filmmakers missed the point.

 

[Rodrigo90]

There issue I have with the flashbacks is that almost all of them are depressing. We never see what great and inspirational role models Jonathan and Martha Kent are. We don't even get to see how they function as a family unit. Instead, we're treated to scene after scene of some new misery in Superman's life. If you don't walk away from a Superman movie wishing that you could be a little bit more like Superman, then I think the filmmakers missed the point.

They fit the tone of the film; Depressing

 

[Boy Scout]

They fit the tone of the film; Depressing

"Let's make a Superman film...but let's make it depressing. That'll put butts in seats!"

Good Lord, we live in an era where the Batman movies are more optimistic.

 

[Rodrigo90]

"Let's make a Superman film...but let's make it depressing. That'll put butts in seats!"

Good Lord, we live in an era where the Batman movies are more optimistic.

It's because Superman is a little too optimistic...they wanted to make it edgy...

In the TDKT, you do actually get a few more laughs.

 

[hopefuldreamer]

So does anyone have a scene in particular that they love?

This is literally everything I can think of that I like in the film:

-Lara and Jor-el's tearful exchange saying goodbye to their son
-The smile Lois gives when Colonel Hardy tells her she'll have to go tinkle in a bucket
-The reassuring look Clark gives Lois to calm her down after being attacked in the ship
-Clark and Jonathan's fight in the truck before the tornado about Clark wanting to be more than just a farmer
-Zod's threatening broadcast
-Lois trying and failing to evade the FBI
-Clark's body reacts to the ships atmosphere/Zod inside his head
-'You think you can threaten my mother?'/'Hurts, doesn't it?'
-The Smallville fight scene
-'This man is not our enemy'
-Superman rising up right through the energy beam emitted from the terra forming device
-Zod's speech 'My soul... that is what you have taken from me'
-Zod vs Superman fight scene (especially the flight fighting)
-Jonathon watching Clark play with the dog in the garden and seeing how special he was even then

But behind closed doors, and from the evidence that you can piece together, I'm assuming that the Kent's raised Clark in a wholesome manner that would of had a hand in his desire to help people.

But the movie never makes it known if it's because of his powers or just his nature that is the driving force.

And I like to fill in the blanks

I saw this a lot when I was on a Smallville fan forum. We called it 'Offscreensville' - the place where things happened that made things in the actual show make sense

The flashbacks painted a picture of a miserable childhood. I would imagine that there was constant pressure from Jonathan to keep his secret a secret and stay away from the other children. It's probably a miracle that Clark grew up to be even a halfway decent person.

Yeah I can't help but agree.

I've said before, I would have been much happier with the portrayal of Jonathon and Clark's upbringing in general if they'd shown ANY light moments between the two of them. Maybe a game of catch. Or going to a game together. Or even something simple make a light hearted comment after one of the speeches to cheer him up so that we could see it wasn't all doom and gloom.

But they didn't, so it just all felt so heavy.

Jonathon to me is supposed to be someone who believes in good people, and I don't think that came across at all.

If they had explored the emotional consequences of the action, I would have been okay with it. Or at least more okay with it than I am now.

Yeah I wouldn't have been okay, but it would have been easier to digest and harder to criticize.

 

[Marvin]

There issue I have with the flashbacks is that almost all of them are depressing. We never see what great and inspirational role models Jonathan and Martha Kent are. We don't even get to see how they function as a family unit. Instead, we're treated to scene after scene of some new misery in Superman's life.

It's strange to hear people keep saying his childhood was so miserable that it's a wonder he became the person he did. This is where I fear people aren't reading into what is presented to them with any effort. There is an equation to be solved. How can Superman end up as good as he is, when his environment was so horrible, solve for X. X = his parents and house hold, the place he was isolated to for he clearly didn't have many friends(if any at all). That element of his life must have been strong enough and warm enough to counter act all the negative agents outright.

For example: There is a scene that starts off with young clark in misery, caused by both his environment as well as his powers, if you choose to stop watching the scene at this moment, then you have a clear point how the **** did this poor kid not crumble or explode..etc, however it ends with Martha showing up and providing direction and comfort, family, friendship even. There is such a thing as bad parenting and there is the parenting that involves running to school(alot) and pulling that off. She didn't even know what he was talking about and her inspirational direction solved the problem. Solving for X.

Yes Clark was bullied and tormented in the Plato scene. Stop the scene just there and again, we're left with nothing but which you describe. Follow it till the end and you have Jon be the inspirational role model you assert is never seen. Jons own death. Safe to say the town remembers this man as a inspiration and hero after that no? I sure would. Especially if I had the intimate knowledge Clark has(which the audience does). People make it sound like Clark was raised by the trucker at that bar. When he was in fact raised by the near opposite. It begs the question of what does Jon Kent do in the bar scene when faced with said Trucker and is that where Clark get's it? How does that bar scene allude to the plato scene for instance.
There is the school bus scene, it's followed by some misery if you will but it ends off with the father son love time. Again, what you take away from this entire scene I suppose is your own prerogative but to simply assert that which you do above, paints a the picture that you only watched half of all of these scenes imo.

The film is consistent in this, from the bus to Zod. There is a moral ambiguity that not only the character has to face but the audience later debates(for months), not followed by any sort of applause but at the same time followed by him being embraced by a loved one. I think this is large factor in why the film is so jarring to some when it could have instead be seen 'greater superman film'. The inspiration for me is in the hard choices and lack of appreciation it's a different kind than what which was presented in the past with the world reacting to all his feats and smiles and such. Just watch all of his first costume appearance in the prior features/shows, with the cops clapping or thanking him for his clear heroics vs how all his heroics go down in in mos after the fact.

I think the filmmakers decided they wouldn't go the route of rose tinted glasses and easy answers, and clear victories in a very consistent way. From Jon to Zod to the death toll etc. It's grounded in that way. I look at the difference between the zod city battle in both films featuring zod for example. The interesting part is that at the very end, they choose to stop playing this game and wrapped up their ending in optimism and smiles only to now face the masses asking for more of their grounded follow through. I can only imagine if mos ended on the note though, with the emotional and destruction follow through instead of cheers and smiles. You take Richard Ropers sound bite on RT as it is now and put a strike through it.

 

[The Endless]

It's because Superman is a little too optimistic...they wanted to make it edgy...

In the TDKT, you do actually get a few more laughs.

It's because optimistic and light hearted is lame.

Cynical and depressing and edgy is cool.

The film makers decided Superman needed a overhaul. They pandered to people who think Superman is lame and corny. Simple as that, really.

 

[Marvin]

It's because optimistic and light hearted is lame.

Cynical and depressing and edgy is cool.

The film makers decided Superman needed a overhaul. They pandered to people who think Superman is lame and corny. Simple as that, really.

If only Moore and Waid were accused of the same when they did the same. Seems anything but simple imo.

 

[Marvin]

1: Mr. Freeze did not die in Batman and Robin.

2: Batman fails to save the people he basically kills by accident in the comics all the time.

3: Manslaughter and murder are not the same thing. They definitionally are not.



Maybe they were more forgiving because, other than that one thing they didn't like, they thought Burton's movies were good.

You're right about freeze(I forget). Seems like there is another batman movie to add the short list in which the villains aren't killed. Maybe it should have a higher rank for it's understanding the of the character.

Batman failing to save his enemies isn't the same as him not even trying. Killing by accident to the degree he does in these films would have Arkham clear in a few years. Just look at the fate of both Dents in these films, I simply don't see that in the comics. It's almost like when people say superman always finds a way to not kill, they would say batman doesn't accidently have his villains die by the end of every story. It's the basic difference between joker's death in 89 and his non death in 2008.

As for manslaughter, imo that depends on the culpability, malice, after though and the degree. Voluntary vs Involuntary and such. Killing a kid chasing a ball onto the road for example. Depending on if you ran the red light or not is the diff between Involuntary and accidental death. I can see batman doing that sort of equivalent with something close to a clear conscious when it comes to criminal death. Doing it with intention or intent to cause serious harm is where I find the voluntary comes into play. A criminal act with the intent to do harm. It would be like running my ex down with a car without the actual intent to kill but rather to do harm but her meeting a gruesome end none the less. Congrats, I'm a killer. This is the world batman lives in and is the basic difference between what he over comes in his books vs what he doesn't over come in those films. I'm suggesting batman is above this sort of thing in the current source material. In various states that's considered a lesser offense of murder. To be sure, that's what I'm referring to.
It begs the question of just what kinda malice and culpability and voluntary action was involved in the situation Ra's found himself in during his death for instance. The latter is the type of manslaughter I'm not putting Batman above. Shooting missiles at cars in order to stop someone and them dying isn't something I'm easily putting the batman from the comics above yet we are supposed to in these films? Pushing Dent off of a building and not saving him...that's even worse than the coin thing in Forever imo. Why save Ra's on the mountain side, batman style, yet not on the train. Why have him be batman in one instance and not the other?

And yea, I'm fully aware people tend to forgive(and give passes) to things they like. It happens I suppose.

 

[hopefuldreamer]

It's strange to hear people keep saying his childhood was so miserable that it's a wonder he became the person he did. This is where I fear people aren't reading into what is presented to them with any effort. There is an equation to be solved. How can Superman end up as good as he is, when his environment was so horrible, solve for X. X = his parents and house hold, the place he was isolated to for he clearly didn't have many friends(if any at all). That element of his life must have been strong enough and warm enough to counter act all the negative agents outright.

It's not good enough to say that it's simply logic that they must have had happy times and he must have had a good upbringing or he wouldn't have turned out the way he did.

It should have been shown. We shouldn't have to 'solve an equation' in order for the film to make sense. The answer should be there in the material itself.

Not to mention the fact that showing some of those happy moments would have been FUN to watch. It would have been an enjoyable addition to the film.

 

[Boy Scout]

It's strange to hear people keep saying his childhood was so miserable that it's a wonder he became the person he did.

If a lot of people are interpretating it that way, I think it's very telling.

This is where I fear people aren't reading into what is presented to them with any effort.

You're entitled to your opinion.

For example: There is a scene that starts off with young clark in misery, caused by both his environment as well as his powers, if you choose to stop watching the scene at this moment, then you have a clear point how the **** did this poor kid not crumble or explode..etc, however it ends with Martha showing up and providing direction and comfort, family, friendship even.

That is one instance of comfort provided by the parent who nobody complains about.

Clark was bullied and tormented in the Plato scene. Stop the scene just there and again, we're left with nothing but which you describe. Follow it till the end and you have Jon be the inspirational role model you assert is never seen.

What, exactly, did he do that was remotely inspiring?

Jons own death.

You mean one of the worst scenes in the movie?

Safe to say the town remembers this man as a inspiration and hero after that no?

What the town thought of Jonathan Kent is irrelevant.

People make it sound like Clark was raised by the trucker at that bar.

No, they make it sound as if he were raised by a man who suggested to his teenage son that allowing a busload of his classmates to die might have been the right thing to do.

It begs the question of what does Jon Kent do in the bar scene when faced with said Trucker and is that where Clark get's it?

1) We don't know enough about Jonathan Kent to answer that question.

2) Clark was likely encouraged not to fight back because of his abilities, not because Jonathan preached nonviolence. As he grew older, he came to understand why it would be unwise for him to fight humans.

There is the school bus scene, it's followed by some misery if you will but it ends off with the father son love time.

...and? We're not talking about whether or not Jonathan loved Clark, we're discussing his questionable parenting and how it might have affected his son.

Again, what you take away from this entire scene I suppose is your own prerogative but to simply assert that which you do above, paints a the picture that you only watched half of all of these scenes imo.

Let me assure you that we wouldn't be having this conversation if I hadn't taken the time to pay attention to what I am criticizing.

RE: your last two paragraphs: I've no problem with the idea of uneasy victories and the like; the execution of it in this film was either poor or simply not to my liking.

In the future, could you try and make your responses a little shorter? I don't say that to be snarky or rude, it's just a bit of a hassle going through mountains of text to find the relevant bits.

 

[DA_Champion]

"Let's make a Superman film...but let's make it depressing. That'll put butts in seats!"

Good Lord, we live in an era where the Batman movies are more optimistic.

Like when Superman feels bad about killing Zod.

 

[DA_Champion]

Btw guys, somebody who lives a hapoy childhood without hardship is actually likely to grow up egocentric and narcissistic.

The ability to feel empathy comes from suffering pain one self. People become volunteers and that sort of thing because they went through a hard tine, not because their lives were easy.

 

[Boy Scout]

Like when Superman feels bad about killing Zod.

1) Not sure how that's an appropriate response to my post.

2) I was being facetious. I thought the tone was fine.

Btw guys, somebody who lives a hapoy childhood without hardship is actually likely to grow up egocentric and narcissistic.

Who suggested thag Superman should have had an easy childhood? Easier, maybe, but not easy.

 

[Marvin]

It's not good enough to say that it's simply logic that they must have had happy times and he must have had a good upbringing or he wouldn't have turned out the way he did.

It should have been shown. We shouldn't have to 'solve an equation' in order for the film to make sense. The answer should be there in the material itself.

Not to mention the fact that showing some of those happy moments would have been FUN to watch. It would have been an enjoyable addition to the film.

As far as what has to be shown for this stuff to work. That much is subjective. There are alot of films out there that require their audience think for instance. You get enough alot of characterization and history from the les mes ensemble from what you, the analytical audience can put together and without precious story time of it being shown being required. A better example may be Gatsby. Especially when you suggest 'for a film to make sense' I mean we have things like Jon Wick with it's lead not confusing anyone. Why is Superman super nice even though he grew up in a mean world? How does he even know how to spell the world love, for his entire upbringing was seemingly devoid of it...

That being said I stand by the idea that plenty was actually shown(right down to the photo in the album). I imagine a take on this film that shows absolutely none of what I'm talking about would have me feeling somewhat differently.

Lastly, I won't argue that showing more of such a thing wouldn't hurt. It may even help. Then again, it could be argued that more showing of such things would help any of these batman films as well. Just depends on what you want I suppose.

 

[DA_Champion]

I thought Clark had a pretty good childhood. Two parents who love him and each other. Frirndship with Pete Ross, all of which is shown.

 

[Rodrigo90]

I thought Clark had a pretty good childhood. Two parents who love him and each other. Frirndship with Pete Ross, all of which is shown.

It wasn't really much of friendship. It was just quiet gratitude for saving him. He still went off with the bullies.

 

[Marvin]

That is one instance of comfort provided by the parent who nobody complains about.

Then you aren't paying attention to the actual complaint. Your own even given the post I was responding to.

What, exactly, did he do that was remotely inspiring?

Sage advice from an elder 'inspires' one to either be better or worse. I imagine Alfred's advice in some of these latter batman films 'inspires' the hero to...'endure' if you will, thus he's what I would classify as 'remotely inspiring'. You ask how Jon inspired someone that would become superman, again it requires to not skip out on the second half...

You mean one of the worst scenes in the movie?

It was? I suppose you too are entitled to your own opinion. But yes, died saving the life of a lesser creature. Rather put the live of such a thing before his own. Conviction, self sacrifice, lesser creatures...stuff you may or may not see in superman(see world engine lead in and pay off).

No, they make it sound as if he were raised by a man who suggested to his teenage son that allowing a busload of his classmates to die might have been the right thing to do.

Can't say he's all together wrong in his 'non answer'. Then again he wasn't being asked if kids should die on some random tuesday or are worth saving all together, but rather weight the lives of a few against the many. An exposure that could arguably change our way of live for the worse(which means more death). Fear, panic etc. 'people are afraid of what they don't understand' and all that.

I do appreciate how simple you present it though. Here's another simple question for you, for I already now Jon Kent's answer: Should Superman have saved the lives of that family in the train station by taking Zod's life or should he have let them perish? I mean the lives of those kids are in his hand...but then again, you have to contend with this supposed no kill rule fall out...

2) Clark was likely encouraged not to fight back because of his abilities, not because Jonathan preached nonviolence. As he grew older, he came to understand why it would be unwise for him to fight humans.

huh? When was this latter part in the film? Anyways I cite what I cite because jon specifically mentions that giving those bullies what they clearly deserve would have 'felt good'. Not just for clark but for jon himself. But he says 'then what'. I have to imagine it would have been the same with the trucker had Clark gotten into a physical confrontation(ala superman 2). He is very much the voice that tells clark not to give into such temptation as it pertains to humans.

...and? We're not talking about whether or not Jonathan loved Clark, we're discussing his questionable parenting and how it might have affected his son.

Again, I find myself wondering if you are tracking your own posts. see your post that I quoted in bold. I too don't mean to be snarky but it's perplexing.

I'll try and keep it short but then again, I'm trying to share my opinion as it pertains to the issue or idea, not so much trying to give you a relevant response and nothing more. I suppose this much would be more clear if I didn't quote you. That being, you really don't have to burden yourself if you won't want to.