Rate MAN OF STEEL......once and for all

[Boy Scout]

It always gives me chills.

 

[DA_Champion]

Didn't he do that on more than one occasion?
I remember him laying in the ocean with his arms out cross style, and exiting the ship the same way for no reason right after Jor-el told him "you can save them all". Both times were pretty blatant.

Hunger Games also had a Jesus analogy but they did a better job.

A jesus allegory doesn't make sense without a Judea-Rome allegory. In the Hunger Games, the capitol is Rome (obvious) and the districts are Judea. That's a good recreation of the social dynamics because the districts have a deep seated desire for a saviour and revolution.

In MoS the Kryptonians are Rome (see Zod's hairstyle) and Earth is Judea. That immediately works less well because Earth has a spontaneous extrinsic rather than longstanding intrinsic need for a saviour.

Further Jesus was of Judea not of Rome.

 

[Flint Marko]

Hunger Games also had a Jesus analogy but they did a better job.

A jesus allegory doesn't make sense without a Judea-Rome allegory. In the Hunger Games, the capitol is Rome (obvious) and the districts are Judea. That's a good recreation of the social dynamics because the districts have a deep seated desire for a saviour and revolution.

In MoS the Kryptonians are Rome (see Zod's hairstyle) and Earth is Judea. That immediately works less well because Earth has a spontaneous extrinsic rather than longstanding intrinsic need for a saviour.

Further Jesus was of Judea not of Rome.

Good point. You sort of touch on it here, but it's worth noting that this extrinsic need was brought on by Superman himself. If he hadn't have messed with the ship in the Arctic, Zod never would have come to earth.
I'm more than okay with a religious allegory if it's done properly, but the one in MoS was both paper thin and heavy-handed.

 

[Marvin]

Zod was searching the outposts one by one and with a hyperdrive no less. Safe bet at some point he would have keyed into searching the ones with active life on said planets. Then again, I suppose that's inferred.

 

[Tempest]

So....i'mma interrupt the pooing on my movie to talk about something I like.

One of my other favorite moments in the film was Zod's speech to Superman after everyone gets sucked into the phantom zone. I actually felt sorry for Zod, even after everything he's done, because we get to see his sorrow and his rage over the loss of his entire people.

Carry on.

 

[Boy Scout]

I liked that too. That was Shannon at his best.

 

[Flint Marko]

Zod was searching the outposts one by one and with a hyperdrive no less. Safe bet at some point he would have keyed into searching the ones with active life on said planets. Then again, I suppose that's inferred.

It's specifically pointed out in the movie that Kal's tampering with the machine in the arctic is what drew the Kryptonian's to earth. I guess you could maybe infer what you have written, but it's quite an assumption, and the movie was quite clear that if Kal had left the ship alone then Zod would not have appeared. I'm not saying it's Superman's "fault" necessarily, just pointing out how it further waters down the idea of a connection between Jesus and Superman since in this case "Jesus" was saving us from a destruction that he indirectly caused.

 

[The Question]

I liked that too. That was Shannon at his best.

Performance wise, I agree. But I think the writing was pretty bad.

 

[Tempest]

Performance wise, I agree. But I think the writing was pretty bad.

Well, I liked it.

 

[DA_Champion]

It's specifically pointed out in the movie that Kal's tampering with the machine in the arctic is what drew the Kryptonian's to earth. I guess you could maybe infer what you have written, but it's quite an assumption, and the movie was quite clear that if Kal had left the ship alone then Zod would not have appeared. I'm not saying it's Superman's "fault" necessarily, just pointing out how it further waters down the idea of a connection between Jesus and Superman since in this case "Jesus" was saving us from a destruction that he indirectly caused.

I don't see that issue.

The military wood have gotten to thee ship a few months later.

 

[Flint Marko]

I don't see that issue.

The military wood have gotten to thee ship a few months later.

But if I remember correctly it was Kal using the "codex" necklace to activate the ship that got the ball rolling on everything. If the military did find it, it'd just be a hunk of extraterrestrial metal.

 

[DA_Champion]

As I remember the signal was sent from Clark destroying the drone, with the drone sending a distress signal.

 

[Flint Marko]

As I remember the signal was sent from Clark destroying the drone, with the drone sending a distress signal.

Just rewatched the scene. When Zod is talking to Superman after he passes out in the ship, Zod specifically says, "we detected a distress beacon which you triggered when you accessed the ancient scout ship. You led us here, Kal."

 

[DA_Champion]

Oh that's too bad. It could easily be fixed by havinh the destruction of the robot access the scout ship.

 

[Two-Face=Badass]

I think the final battle, and the Smallville battle as well, are probably the areas of the film that amplifies the problems with the movie for some people. This is where Superman needed to be Superman, instead he comes across as reckless. It was an over indulgence of action with little in the way of showing the best qualities of Superman. The finale of every action film is meant to showcase all the qualities of the hero, that's when he's suppose to rise to the occasion. But here the fighting is meaningless because we aren't shown those qualities, only that he can take a punch. Thought may have been put into how the fight looked, but no thought was put into what it meant. It becomes hollow if it's just two super powered being beating the crap out of each other destroying buildings.

Exactly.

Contrary to popular belief action scenes in media can work wonders for revealing things about characters and their developments. One of the best examples right now is Avatar: The Legend of Korra, in which each person's fighting style informs us of their personalities and attitudes, and changes in these styles reflect their development. Reading Worm, one of the best things about it is how it uses actions to drive character development, as each person's engagements in conflict are driven by specific choices that they make.

Man of Steel utterly failed to say anything with its action. Clark and Zod duke it out, but apart from the establishment that Zod is, ironically for an apparently professional soldier, more of a manic brawler, the action serves very little purpose. The only character whose part in the action scenes tells us more about them is Colonel Hardy. Instead we see two largely similar fighting styles duking it out with enormous collateral damage. There's no sense that Superman wants to avoid that damage and death, or even that he cares it is happening as a consequence.

What's more is that the lack of character moments in the action actually drives away the stakes rather than raising them. We don't get to see Zod gain a dangerous upper hand because Superman is trying to direct the fight away from people, save those falling from building. We don't get to see the conflicting moralities on display - a singleminded determination from Zod, contrasted with Clark who possesses an empathy for his surroundings, and in doing so is both a stronger person but a weaker combatant.

The fact that the fighting goes on near 40 minutes just makes it worse.

 

[DA_Champion]

There is some character work in the action scenes. For example Clark defeats Faora and Nam Ek using heat vision showing us the benefit of an Earthly upbringing. Previously in the smallville battle he is continuously trying to save soldiers showing us he values human life.

 

[Two-Face=Badass]

There is some character work in the action scenes. For example Clark defeats Faora and Nam Ek using heat vision showing us the benefit of an Earthly upbringing. Previously in the smallville battle he is continuously trying to save soldiers showing us he values human life.

That's true. I was largely referring to the final forty minutes of the film. The earlier actions sequences contain some better stuff. Still not quite up to par, but certainly better than the endgame monotony.

 

[DA_Champion]

The interesting stuff in the Zod fight should be that Zod is going crazy because he has lost everything to live for. How could they have shown that better?

Alternatively you could say that the interesting stuff should be Superman trying to contain Zod and not knowing how.

 

[Two-Face=Badass]

The interesting stuff in the Zod fight should be that Zod is going crazy because he has lost everything to live for. How could they have shown that better?

Alternatively you could say that the interesting stuff should be Superman trying to contain Zod and not knowing how.

That's why I said Zod of all people got the better showing in the film. Superman in that final fight is not Superman. He's the guy fighting Zod. That's about the sum of his character in the fight.

 

[Naked Shia]

I have one exception in my rule about "I'm all for subjectivity when it comes to art". and it's people who defend Thor 2, claim they had a great time while watching it, and are serious about it.

 

[DA_Champion]

That's why I said Zod of all people got the better showing in the film. Superman in that final fight is not Superman. He's the guy fighting Zod. That's about the sum of his character in the fight.

Zod had more coherent characterization in the film. IMO, he's more interesting.

Is that a problem? Can the movie have the villain be more interesting than the hero and still be a good movie?

 

[DA_Champion]

I have one exception in my rule about "I'm all for subjectivity when it comes to art". and it's people who defend Thor 2, claim they had a great time while watching it, and are serious about it.

Re: Erik Selvig.

You know how sometimes when you're watching a baseball game or some other sport and blowhard among the spectators streaks across the stadium naked, thereby interrupting the game? And you know how that's annoying and stupid?

Well, that's the kind of humour some people enjoy.

 

[Naked Shia]

Surely they can't seriously enjoy that. And not only is it not funny, it's downright embarassing, and it's used twice in the movie.

 

[Marvin]

It's specifically pointed out in the movie that Kal's tampering with the machine in the arctic is what drew the Kryptonian's to earth. I guess you could maybe infer what you have written, but it's quite an assumption, and the movie was quite clear that if Kal had left the ship alone then Zod would not have appeared. I'm not saying it's Superman's "fault" necessarily, just pointing out how it further waters down the idea of a connection between Jesus and Superman since in this case "Jesus" was saving us from a destruction that he indirectly caused.

I hardly see how it's quite the assumption. Zod said Kal drew them there, he never said they wouldn't have found him had it not been for the signal, which could have also easily been a line of dialogue. The statement in and of itself implies a matter of speed. An extreme example would be if there were literally 10 outposts and this same chain of events occurred, Zod would be in the position to say the same exact thing, even if he was on out post 5, "you drew us here". I'm not getting into what you are saying about the christ parable, for it's I find it interesting that for the amount of complaining there is to be had about the christ parable existing, this is seemingly an argument against it...

I'm just asserting that the film implies Zod was on his way to earth eventually. Given his means and determination. Unless there were of course 10 billion outposts(something I see as odd) for him to search but even still...

If you are a science head, there would be something interesting things to consider. Such as just how fast these ships get around without the hyperdrive Jor was said to have invented. I'd imagine it would fall into light speeds at most. Even then, that would kinda suck given all the time dilation that would occur in their lifetimes of the journeymen vs krypton. But still, I'm proposing that the outposts ships weren't actually sent 'all' that far away from each other. Then there is the issue of just how fast that(light speed) traveling distress beacon reached zod. Again, doesn't seem like it's all that far. For instance if you look into our own radio signal bubble and how far it is given it's been growing for over half a century...I digress, I just don't think Zod would have missed earth in the not to distant future is all. If it wasn't not it would have been later. But who's to say.

Man of Steel utterly failed to say anything with its action.
...
There's no sense that Superman wants to avoid that damage and death, or even that he cares it is happening as a consequence.

Read these two statement back to back.
Point being, it's hard for something this involved to say nothing, rather it's bound to always say something. It's a matter of how you receive just what it is that is being said. For example, perhaps superman is reckless in this(his first) outing. Perhaps, like Korra it's not failing to say something after all. Now, this certain something that's it's saying, what exactly is wrong with it outside of the 'rules of superman'.....

I think it would be telling that if in Superman's second ever adventure his fighting characterization says something different, evolved, experienced and more learned about him. Imagine that. Not to different from Korra's own journey.

What's more is that the lack of character moments in the action actually drives away the stakes rather than raising them. We don't get to see Zod gain a dangerous upper hand because Superman is trying to direct the fight away from people, save those falling from building. We don't get to see the conflicting moralities on display - a singleminded determination from Zod, contrasted with Clark who possesses an empathy for his surroundings, and in doing so is both a stronger person but a weaker combatant.

First of all, there is a moment in the fight in which the tide turns, it's vividly framed and comes with a break in combat no less(something you don't see in films like the raid for example). Secondly you suggest here that there needs to be a way to add stakes to a battle that already surrounds the fate of two worlds and the heroes own life, that's all well and good. But what is your suggestion? Is it say the type of means you see in dozens of other action films, from the Raid to Cap2(See entire freeway battle) to Rocky 4, to Star Wars....no, it's by leaping into that 'thing' people were seemingly looking for from Superman. Of course.
Just saying.

The fact that the fighting goes on near 40 minutes just makes it worse.

The fighting goes on near 40minutes? Are you sure...

 

[Naked Shia]

the zod/cal fight last less than 5 minutes.