Comics Saving Spider-Man - A collaboration between the Readers and the Publishers

[Shin-Natsume]

So, since everyone talks about it, im jumping onto the bandwagon. As some of you might know, or not, i quit 616 Spidey after Morlun. It just annoyed me. Heck, i remember back in those days, i was so desperate, i even told myself that "The comming of thousand" was a good read...

Needless to say, i am not informed about EVERYTHING that is going on in 616, but i know the worst things.

To save our beloved webslinger from the misery he is in, we first need to analyze where he went wrong. What was the turning point in the comic book that lead up all this? was it the clone saga? was it the gatehring of five? was it civil war? no. It was not the wedding or whatever some people at marvel pretend...

i say it was the few issues before the clone saga started. mary jane just left peter, not knowing that she was pregnant, and peter batteled it out with shriek and carrion. aunt may was in the hospital again, and from this issue, the legacy of stan and steve went downwards...

the clone coming back was a neat idea, but overall, the clone saga was just executed awefull. too many ideas, writers and artists wrote stuff that was out of any context, editors edited around, and nothing really came out...

so how can we fix this?

well, one idea would be exterminating what happened. this would mean retcon normans return, retcon the clone saga, retcon everything back to one point weere we can be sure that the comics were good those days.

another idea would be the introduction of a new series that pretends that a few of hose things never happened. the new series takes over and the other series get the title what if... over time, untill they are out of print...

anotehr idea would be bringing back hobgoblinf rom the future and his retcon bombs. as silly as it sounds, its an idea...

all in all, im for the second idea. introducing a new spider-mantitle, that picks up somwhere after the death of harry osborn, or even before it (but i say harrys death was a masterpiece).

the new series tells new stories or maybe known storries in a different way, that lead to different events. more books follow, and the timeline as it is now gets reduced to one waht if issue, that ultimately gets scrapped...

this is just my idea, and i am eagerly awaiting yours^^

 

[ragingdemon155]

I can't agree with you at all on this bit.

The arc with Shreik was simply amazing. One of the best I had ever read in ASM. Also, in regards to the Clone Saga....like I've said many times before I felt that the writing was exceptional during this point. Much better then what where getting at the moment in ASM. It's just that Marvel tried to milk it dry and that's where the problems began.

You know, I could live with "Sins Past". Yes it was awful and the idea behind it still doesn't make any sense whatsoever. But I could live with it. The "big" problem started with "The Other". A storyline that pretty much threw 40 years out of the window and made completely no sense. After that, things started to go downhill at a rapid pace culminating with the "unmasking".

People want to rip on the Clone Saga. I would glady take that over what's going on now.

 

[daveswb]

I agree the shriek story line was very well done.

The story line of peter an MJ being separated was a good idea as well. And Peter becoming the "spider". He basically has a psychotic break. They could have done a bit more with that story line, but it was still a cool idea.

It's interesting I haven't read "the other" yet. I hear it was pretty bad. The TBP just came out so I will probably pick that up. I was out of the collecting loop for a while, but Civil War sucked me back in.

His new powers didn't bug me that much, it was the fact that he joined the new avengers and basically is acting sub-servant to Tony Stark. Yeah, I understand it is to push forward with the Civil War story line, but it’s too much.

What I mean by that, is I feel they set him up with Tony Stark and the New avengers so he had a fall back position for when he revealed his identity. Also making him indebted to Tony gives more reason for him to agree to the unmasking. It is an interesting point that his motto is “With great power comes great responsibility.” And how can you take responsibility hiding behind a mask. So I can say I understand his unmasking, I just don’t agree with it and how it was done.

But Now Tony is in control and Spidey has no choice. He’s made himself vulnerable.

It’s also interesting that when DC goes against their continuity they explain it away as there are multiple DC universes. And when it gets’s too complicated they pull something like Infinite Crisis.

Marvel doesn’t do that. They have one universe where everything happens. And do not normally play games like that. How ever they come up with some silly explanations to when they bring people back from the dead

I think we need to wait out Civil War. I do not think Spidey will go after the other heroes. I think they are going to pull a crazy stunt at Marvel and have some of the villains working for shield. And I think Norman is one of the ones they will offer it to. But Norman will use the opportunity to get out of jail get his gear back and go after Peter for “breaking” the rules. The question then will be what will the government and public reaction be to this?

It’ll be interesting to see.

As for your ideas they did try 2 restarts. The fans didn’t like the Amazing restart so they want back to the original continuity and the ultimate Spider-Man is it’s own universe.

Finally I’d like to close with you haven’t read the books in a while I’d pick up the Civil war and ASM tie ins and see what’s really going on in the spidey-verse before suggesting how to fix him.

 

[spidey-dude]

do a ben reilly series, just bring him back and have him have one spidey title, sure it wont be peter but he would be more like peter than peter is at the moment, if thta makes sense

 

[Captivated]

You know, I could live with "Sins Past". Yes it was awful and the idea behind it still doesn't make any sense whatsoever. But I could live with it. The "big" problem started with "The Other". A storyline that pretty much through 40 years out of the window and made completely no sense. After that, things started to go downhill at a rapid pace culminating with the "unmasking".

"Sins Past" distroyed a supporting character. "The Other" picked at the foundation of the MAIN character... yeah, much worse.

A simple well done story (JMS has the talent to do it IF he was so motivated) could recon these stories.

There were some unanswered questions with "The Other"... like Dr. Strange telling Peter he was under a curse... They could turn that into an explaination of how the whole "chosen by a mystic spider demon thing" was just a hallucination and a lie. But, I honestly don't know HOW they are going to deep 6 those stupid stingers...

 

[The Shadow]

Retcon Bombs??? I must have missed this storyline.....This future GG actually had something call a retcon bomb! Hhahahaha ......OMG....

Further proof that the writers like toying and messing with the fans....

I have an idea.....but this would effect the entire Marvel U.....Galactus comes back and devours the moon. He then let's out a huge "Time Burp" that covers the Earth and fixes all of the mistakes made in every book. Of course it could be a "Time Fart" too.....take your pick! Hahahaha.....

All kidding aside you can't use "Time Travel" to fix Spidey because that doesn't just effect Spidey it effects everyone else as well.....You start messing with that then you'll have the same problem DC had...

 

[Citizen_Kaine]

The Clone Saga while convoluted, and drawn out, was a decent story and idea to begin with, especially, with the load of additions cast and character wise, and the excellent (Ignore, Peter's little Maximum Cloneage insanity here) characterization of all the participants. Yes the Saga went on to long, but it can not be blamed for the problems with Spidey today. What killed Spidey, was what happened at the end of the Saga. Marvel had put all their eggs in one basket with Ben Reilly, and the plan hadn't worked out as well as planned. Their desire to rush back and make everything normal again screwed over the Spider-titles. All the interesting characters introduced were swept under the rug and forgotten, people like MJ, reverted back to their, "I wish Peter, wouldn't fight crime" persona's, Ben Reilly, one of the most intresting aspects in Spider-man in years was quickly killed and forgotten, and the baby which fans had been waiting for 2 years to see, was quietly retconned out of existence, and today we are still told the baby is dead and never coming back, even with all the evidence to the contrary. Aunt May was even brought back, just to complete the whole reversal.

This is what has hurt Spidey, stall in growth and creative idea's, Marvel trying to keep Peter like he was before the marriage, without any of the supporting cast members he had back than. The status quo has been stuck in Neutral for years now, without any postive growth and change, and publicity stunts such as umasking and the Other, only hurt the character and the business in the end.

 

[Nebins]

I'll be honest, up until a year ago my knowledge of Spider-man was the Animated series and the movies. Then last year my friend got me into comics and I decided I would pick up Spidey. I had expectations of this great character with real problems, someone I can relate to and then all of a sudden he has mystical powers and spikes and whatever else (I heard he has organic webbing now too. When did this happen, I thought that was only in the movies?) Not the point. Anyway, when a new reader like myself is thinking what the hell is going on, then there is a problem. This isn't the Spider-man I thought I knew growing up. I agree with you guys. Something needs to be changed. I have no idea what, but something needs to be changed.

 

[MyPokerShirt]

shin, ur an idiot. no more bloody retconning. sheesh. aunt may returning tried. clone saga tried. sins past tried. if u start from a point in history thats retconning too. its all retconning. is that all u cud think of. i hava good idea: get better writers to write some more cheery stories. no more deaths/ affairs or anything like that for awhile. heck, just keep MJ and May safe for a while and tell some good stories. like the initial part of JMS's run.

 

[Shin-Natsume]

stop insulting me, it was jsutan idea okay?
if you dont liek it, go and kill yourself or dont post here. i´d prefer the first choice however...

anyway, its your problem.
spidey wont get better. dont fool yourself, it wotn happen.
so just accept this or really start thinking what can be done...

 

[MyPokerShirt]

lol!
that was the worst post i've ever read -- go kill myself?? talk about insulting.
and they won't EVER get better, despite the fact the last ish of amazing was brilliant? wow, way to exaggerate. look at that spilt milk *cries*
Wait, look!the sky is falling!
no,no, sorry.i was just being STUPID. jesus man, pop some pills, calm down and think of some GOOD ideas.

 

[Shin-Natsume]

anyway, so we can agree on the status that the beginning of the clone saga was fairlo good?

so when did the series started to let down, and what can be done against it?

 

[MyPokerShirt]

people didnt like ben reilly becoming spider-man. but if u read the series as a whole (knowing that petes the real deal) nowadays its fine. i really enjoyed it, cos i read it after it had been finished. the worst part was spidercide, the scriers and judas traveller, who they changed to fit with the stories. their original intended characters were more powerful or (in spidercides case) not so stupid.

 

[UK_Stu]

people didnt like ben reilly becoming spider-man. but if u read the series as a whole (knowing that petes the real deal) nowadays its fine. i really enjoyed it, cos i read it after it had been finished. the worst part was spidercide, the scriers and judas traveller, who they changed to fit with the stories. their original intended characters were more powerful or (in spidercides case) not so stupid.

Ben Reilly was originally intended to replace Peter permanently. Marvel lost their bottle though and ceded to fan pressure, changing the intended storyline so Peter would be the true Parker, leaving us with the convoluted mess it turned into.

 

[MyPokerShirt]

he wasnt originally, but when it was first done then yes, it was meant to be permanent. if you read it as a whole now, it really doesnt seem like that much of a mess. -which was my point. flame shields up..etc etc

 

[roach]

1)the clone saga was a very good story that the wrong people got their claws into
2)To bring Spidey back to when he was great you have to do one simple thing....ignore what these bozos have done.The next writer should forget about totems and stingers and tell stories meant to entertain....shock writing goes out the window, JQ giving story point stops also

 

[MaxCarnage]

MyPokerShirt: shin, ur an idiot. no more bloody retconning. sheesh. aunt may returning tried. clone saga tried. sins past tried. if u start from a point in history thats retconning too. its all retconning. is that all u cud think of. i hava good idea: get better writers to write some more cheery stories. no more deaths/ affairs or anything like that for awhile. heck, just keep MJ and May safe for a while and tell some good stories. like the initial part of JMS's run.

Shin-Natsume: stop insulting me, it was jsutan idea okay?
if you dont liek it, go and kill yourself or dont post here. i´d prefer the first choice however...

anyway, its your problem.
spidey wont get better. dont fool yourself, it wotn happen.
so just accept this or really start thinking what can be done...

MyPokerShirt: lol!
that was the worst post i've ever read -- go kill myself?? talk about insulting.
and they won't EVER get better, despite the fact the last ish of amazing was brilliant? wow, way to exaggerate. look at that spilt milk *cries*
Wait, look!the sky is falling!
no,no, sorry.i was just being STUPID. jesus man, pop some pills, calm down and think of some GOOD ideas.

Shin-Natsume: anyway, so we can agree on the status that the beginning of the clone saga was fairlo good?

so when did the series started to let down, and what can be done against it?

MyPokerShirt: people didnt like ben reilly becoming spider-man. but if u read the series as a whole (knowing that petes the real deal) nowadays its fine. i really enjoyed it, cos i read it after it had been finished. the worst part was spidercide, the scriers and judas traveller, who they changed to fit with the stories. their original intended characters were more powerful or (in spidercides case) not so stupid.

This could almost pass for a transcript of Wendy and Gary on the Howard Stern show.

 

[SpideyInATree]

This could almost pass for a transcript of Wendy and Gary on the Howard Stern show.

HAHA! Sorry to those two posters but it's actually true. Heh.

But anyway. I disagree with you on this point Shin-Natsume.

The Spider-Man books were on a roll before the Clone Saga. And when the Clone Saga started, with Ben Reilly simply as a shadowy figure calling Aunt May, the books were selling at an all time high.

And despite your view on the Clone Saga I feel that it's a great storyline, however, my biggest gripe is that Marvel didn't stick to their guns and keep Ben Reilly as the one true Spider-Man. Dan Jurgens' Sensational Spider-Man run was simply fantastic, and was putting together a nice life for Ben Reilly, and Peter Parker in Oregon.

But, if you've read the Life of Reilly, you'd know that there were far too many hands into the pot. And the marketing department was absolutely insane with greed. And not to mention all the die-cast, foil embossed, see through holographic covers of doom that were released during the 90's.

No, things didn't start to go seriously wrong until they resurrected Norman Osborn, resurrected Aunt May -- spitting in the faces of J.M. DeMatteis and Mark Bagley after their beautiful issue Amazing Spider-Man # 400.

I was out of the Spider-Man comics after they resurrected Aunt May, I had had enough.

So, anything after that I don't really know what happened...but the beginning of JMS' run was simply fantastic and the Book of Ezekiel was a fitting ending to the totem storyline. However, stories such as Sins Past and The Other have really crapped on Spider-Man, and the creators who have worked on Spidey in the past.

During that time you're talking about we had writers such as J.M. DeMatteis writing the Amazing Spider-Man. Tom Defalco, current writer of Spider-Girl, working on Spectacular Spider-Man. Trust me...Spider-Man was in VERY good hands during that time period.

 

[gildea]

1)the clone saga was a very good story that the wrong people got their claws into
2)To bring Spidey back to when he was great you have to do one simple thing....ignore what these bozos have done.The next writer should forget about totems and stingers and tell stories meant to entertain....shock writing goes out the window, JQ giving story point stops also

Stands up an applauds.

It really is that simple.

 

[Shin-Natsume]

well, i got you into some sort of discussion.
so why dont you try to discuss of what can be done against it? (except firing queseda maybe)

oh and about the clone saga. i loved it. but most people did not and thats why i thought id say it this way...^^

oh adn about that transcript..
well, it is funny, indeed^^

 

[hex]

It's quite simple folks.. As much as I love JMS work in other titles. TAKE JMS OFF SPIDERMAN ALREADY!!!

 

[Doc_OCK_4MUGEN]

I agree with SIAT... whoa!

 

[boywonder13]

It seems the only thing Marvel can do right now it get new blood to write for Spider-Man even unknowns who can write well and love the comics....

People got angry when the Clone Saga happened and Marvel changed it....

worse thigns have happened since than and Marvel is barely moving to change it.

 

[SpideyInATree]

It's quite simple folks.. As much as I love JMS work in other titles. TAKE JMS OFF SPIDERMAN ALREADY!!!

Don't hold me to this or anything. But Jeph Loeb is taking over an ongoing Spider-Man title in 2007, I think it's possibly going to be Amazing Spider-Man, but that's just my educated guess. I couldn't see Loeb on Sensational or Friendly Neighborhood, especially after leaving DC...Quesada would have had to give Loeb the keys to the kingdom so to speak.

I agree with SIAT... whoa!

Weird, huh? Doc Destruction even agreed with me in another thread. It's turning into a bizarro Hype!

 

[Citizen_Kaine]

Don't hold me to this or anything. But Jeph Loeb is taking over an ongoing Spider-Man title in 2007, I think it's possibly going to be Amazing Spider-Man, but that's just my educated guess. I couldn't see Loeb on Sensational or Friendly Neighborhood, especially after leaving DC...Quesada would have had to give Loeb the keys to the kingdom so to speak.

Spider-Man: Shush

Sounds good