Season 7, Episode 3 "The Queen's Justice" Discussion Thread

[Kane52630]

Preview
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[Rowsdower!]

So...

Tyrion's line about Cersei being ready would imply to me that he's pretty certain that Euron very likely beat some information out of Yara or some of her soldiers and the Lannisters know that the Unsullied (and the Dothraki, I assume) are going to sack Casterly Rock. So there's a good chance our heroes will suffer two big defeats in a row here early on in the season.

If so, then the war for the Iron Throne could take precedent over the White Walkers yet again. I could see Dany offering to help Jon in the North but only after he helps her get rid of Cersei. But given the threat of the Night King (and the fact that aside from this forthcoming episode it looks like most of Jon's scenes this season take place in the North, as per usual), I doubt he'd be willing to do that. Maybe though... if it means he can get his hands on that Dragonglass mine that Dany is (literally?) sitting on.

On the other hand... going back to the full season preview for a moment... we only assumed that Jon's scenes are taking place in the North. But if winter is truly here, perhaps those battles we see him facing in the snow are actually taking place in the South.

 

[Iceman]

As in the Unsullied and Dothraki together get defeated? That would seem like an anti-climax after all this build up as to how deadly they both are.

 

[Rowsdower!]

Yeah, it would be pretty shocking but I could see it happening. I hope not, of course but... I didn't expect Yara's fleet to go down so easily either.

 

[KevTravels]

where are all the men able to fight these wars coming from? Didn't Westeros take a massive hit with the War of the 5 Kings? Like i'd imagine the 15-45 male demo is drastically reduced.

 

[godisawesome]

where are all the men able to fight these wars coming from? Didn't Westeros take a massive hit with the War of the 5 Kings? Like i'd imagine the 15-45 male demo is drastically reduced.

For the main two kingdoms constantly featured at war, the Lannisters and the Starks, yeah, they really should be down to practically no ability to prosecute a war. With The North, they at least went out of its way to establish that the armies at the Battle of the Bastards were several sizes smaller than the forces commanded by Robb before the Red Wedding, by keeping Jon's force tiny and limiting Ramsey to only three houses. Plus the North is now being portrayed as turtling up for the Winter, training everyone they can and focusing on insular security.

It's the Lannisters who should effectively be toothless by now; their forces are supposed to only barely outsize the Stark's when both are fully mobilized, and while they didn't suffer the Red Wedding, they did lose several battles to Robb while scrambling to hold the Red Keep against Stannis, and right now they're supposed to be occupying at least three kingdoms (their home in the Westerlands, the Frey-less Riverlands, and the region around Kingslanding), and maybe even a fourth (we've got no information for what the Stormlands are like right now).

The show putting such emphasis on Jaime recruiting the Tarlys is supposed to answer the incredible disparity they'd experience against the Tyrells; yes, the Tyrells have been decapitated as a great House, but the Reach is still one of the most untouched Kingdoms and frickin' huge. Even if the Tarlys turn on Olenna, there should still be so many other major Houses with troops left to support that a civil war would be more likely than a swift change in power. And it still boggles the mind that the highly PR conscious Tyrells command so little loyalty from Reach lords after being flat out murdered by an outsider blowing up a church, while over in Dorne, a bunch of base-born kinslayers can apparently command a whole country.

Seriously, so much Dornish drama could have been avoided by just leaving Doran Martel as his country's leader.

 

[Iceman]

Yeah, it would be pretty shocking but I could see it happening. I hope not, of course but... I didn't expect Yara's fleet to go down so easily either.

It would have to be some trick or clever battle tactic to defeat them rather than just prowess on the field deciding it then. It would make rewatching the show from the beginning pretty weird where we keep having it drummed into us how effective soldiers the Unsullied are and what fierce warriors the Dothraki are.

 

[The Incredible Hulk]

I have an easier time believing that Iron Born can defeat other Iron Born than I can that what's left of the Lannister army around Casterly Rock is going to take out a combined force of Unsullied and Dothraki.

 

[Rowsdower!]

Yeah, that's true. I was thinking earlier about how the Iron Born are so cocky and proud, yet they've basically been consistent failures who all usually end up serving as someone's b***h. So it makes sense that the only battle an Iron Born fleet could win is against other Iron Born; that way Iron Born are still losing.

 

[Roose Bolton]

I don't think that's the intention at all. The Ironborn are the greatest naval warriors within the setting, and for all of Jaime's talk, the only time they were ever defeated in living memory was by Stannis Baratheon who is specifically one of the greatest military leaders Westeros had ever seen.

The Iron Islands and Dorne were the only two regions within the Seven Kingdom that didn't suffer a massive loss of life by engaging in the main conflict of the War of Five Kings, right now the Iron Fleet is the military force to fear.

 

[BullMcGiveny]

Yeah, that's true. I was thinking earlier about how the Iron Born are so cocky and proud, yet they've basically been consisten failures who all usually end up serving as someone's b***h. So it makes sense that the only battle an Iron Born fleet could win is against other Iron Born; that way Iron Born are still losing.

I think the problem with the Ironborn is that they're excellent sailors and maritime warriors, but as a land army.... Not so much. Balon had aspirations on being king among mainlanders, which is why his conquest of the North was doomed.

More than being Iron Born on Iron Born, it was the Iron Born being in their element for once.

 

[Kane52630]

 

[squeekness]

I actually like the look of the Dragon Throne better than the Iron one. Less pointy.

 

[Iceman]

I'd sit in it.

 

[squeekness]

Might need a cushion or two.

 

[righthooksrus86]

I cant tell who are the two in the picture on the bottom...is that Dany and Jon?

 

[squeekness]

Looks like Varys and Mellisandre to me.

 

[godisawesome]

I don't think that's the intention at all. The Ironborn are the greatest naval warriors within the setting, and for all of Jaime's talk, the only time they were ever defeated in living memory was by Stannis Baratheon who is specifically one of the greatest military leaders Westeros had ever seen.

The Iron Islands and Dorne were the only two regions within the Seven Kingdom that didn't suffer a massive loss of life by engaging in the main conflict of the War of Five Kings, right now the Iron Fleet is the military force to fear.

I think the problem with the Ironborn is that they're excellent sailors and maritime warriors, but as a land army.... Not so much. Balon had aspirations on being king among mainlanders, which is why his conquest of the North was doomed.

More than being Iron Born on Iron Born, it was the Iron Born being in their element for once.

Adding to this, it pays to keep in mind the way that naval conflict would simply change the tactics you'd use and the skills you'd most value in a warrior; most of the work is about maneuvering the ship into an advantageous positions, and the actual hand-to hand fighting is on cramped decks where no one can retreat and most people, even among the Iron Born, don't wear armor. Tara describing her Theon-Rescue-Party from way back when as "killers" instead of "warriors" makes perfect sense of the skills she's judging are men who are used to short but brutal fights in confined spaces where you can't retreat or make any large formations and where knives, short axes, and stuff like spiked knuckle dusters are more useful.

And it heightens Theon's alienness among his own people. He knows how to fight as a Northman, and how to plan attacks like a Northman. He thinks in terms of long fights and sieges, while his people avoid those as a matter of course. It May even play into why he can stand his ground against most of the Iron Born before Yara is captured; as long as he's dicisplimed and focused, he can stand his ground and use more graceful Northern sword moves against his enemies.

 

[Reek]

Cersei V Drogon

 

[Iceman]

Might need a cushion or two.

If you need a cushion you aren't the true king.

 

[squeekness]

If you need a cushion you aren't the true king.

It's not my fault I have a boney ass.

 

[Iceman]

It's not my fault I have a boney ass.

Who's fault is it?!! t:

 

[DarthSkywalker]

I am so very hyped for this episode.

 

[righthooksrus86]

For some reason it makes me glad to see that Ser Davos is with him in the meeting with Dany.

 

[Warhorse]

As in the Unsullied and Dothraki together get defeated? That would seem like an anti-climax after all this build up as to how deadly they both are.

It's possible. If they come from warm, desert climates, and they are not used to the extreme cold temps of the North, and they are not equipped to deal with it, that alone could defeat them. Just like Jon said, their strength against King's Landing is that they are hard from dealing with the extreme colds. In turn, King's Landing, while not as adapt as Winterfell, would still be more adapt than the armies who grew up in desert areas.