Should Dc change the tone of their movies?

[Tec15]

Talk about mendacious leading questions......

 

[regwec]

This thread needs a poll.

The question itself is somewhat fallacious, though, as there is not a single tone throughout the movies (which are made by WB, not DC). Furthermore, different characters merit different tones. You couldn't really make a Shazam movie with the same tone as a Batman movie.

 

[baerrtt]

WB should focus on doing their absolute best to hire directors and writers who are capable of producing good to great material irrespective of whether their superhero pictures are light or dark. Would STAR WARS A NEW HOPE, RAIDERS OF THE LOST ARK, ET, GHOSTBUSTERS, BACK TO THE FUTURE, JURASSIC PARK just to name a few great blockbusters be any better if their settings were adjusted to grimdark? Because each of those movies have plots that could easily be interpreted with a less lighter touch (the original JP novel for example is much more violent than the Spielberg version).

As mush as I believe MOS shouldn't have tried replicating the style of Nolan's Batfilms what it comes down to is execution and IMO Zack Snyder and David Goyer aren't, individually as well as together, the best or most consistent guys for that task as their version of dark is the filmic equivalent of all those crappy 90s superhero books that wallowed in 'attitude' and shock at the expense of good or imaginative storytelling in the same way Joel Schumacher's version of light in his Batman films was campy without being actually funny on purpose(which as GOTG shows if you're going to emulate the bat**** tone of certain comics or comics of a certain era it's helpful to actually make something that gets the audience to laugh for the right reasons) . The TDK trilogy succeeded because they got a talented writer/director and gave him the freedom to do what he wanted to just as IRON MAN succeeded because Marvel gave their director, whose roots and strengths are in comedy, the freedom to make the movie they've built their empire on.

 

[Victarion]

WB should focus on doing their absolute best to hire directors and writers who are capable of producing good to great material irrespective of whether their superhero pictures are light or dark. Would STAR WARS A NEW HOPE, RAIDERS OF THE LOST ARK, ET, GHOSTBUSTERS, BACK TO THE FUTURE, JURASSIC PARK just to name a few great blockbusters be any better if their settings were adjusted to grimdark?.

I'm going to have to ask you to provide a definition of grimdark.

 

[baerrtt]

^
Using death, gloom, destruction and violence as the tools to ensure people take a narrative seriously without having any palpable balance or proper execution of levity. Take the humour out of RAIDERS for example (and specifically the humour in some of the action scenes) and with the wrong director or writer behind the camera and IMO you have a film without any imagination or spark.

 

[Victarion]

^
Using death, gloom, destruction and violence as the tools to ensure people take a narrative seriously without having any palpable balance or proper execution of levity. Take the humour out of RAIDERS for example (and specifically the humour in some of the action scenes) and with the wrong director or writer behind the camera and IMO you have a film without any imagination or spark.

Thanks. I agree, you should balance that out with a bit of gallows humor. I would argue that imagination and spark more come through in your plot and characters than humor alone, assuming you don't use humor as a distinctive character trait. Although I would argue that, to an extent, the tools you mention are a means of imbuing one's work with the harshest aspects of real life. After all, audiences love to see the hero win through. If the hero faces something trite, there's not much weight behind his/her victory. Using those elements you mention does add a bit more weight to the hero's journey and victory.

Applying my idea of gallows humor to, say, a Star Wars series in which the Rebel Alliance vs Galactic Empire is told in shades of black and grey rather than black and white: the Rebels land on an Empire-controlled planet. In a village near their landing site, they encounter a language barrier. So the Rebels do public executions of the Imperials, tax collectors and whatever passes for lawyers. Then the villagers become the Rebels' BFFs. I think this sort of humor works.

 

[baerrtt]

Thanks. I agree, you should balance that out with a bit of gallows humor. I would argue that imagination and spark more come through in your plot and characters than humor alone, assuming you don't use humor as a distinctive character trait. Although I would argue that, to an extent, the tools you mention are a means of imbuing one's work with the harshest aspects of real life. After all, audiences love to see the hero win through. If the hero faces something trite, there's not much weight behind his/her victory. Using those elements you mention does add a bit more weight to the hero's journey and victory.

Applying my idea of gallows humor to, say, a Star Wars series in which the Rebel Alliance vs Galactic Empire is told in shades of black and grey rather than black and white: the Rebels land on an Empire-controlled planet. In a village near their landing site, they encounter a language barrier. So the Rebels do public executions of the Imperials, tax collectors and whatever passes for lawyers. Then the villagers become the Rebels' BFFs. I think this sort of humor works.

Thanks for replying back. My issue is the belief ,assuming that is WB's plan going forward, that making things darker and grounded to automatically ensure a better and successful product(in light of the fortune Nolan's Bat trilogy made) doesn't automatically work with superhero CBMs unless you have the right talent involved. Likewise GL tried emulating the same moves Favreau was given free reign to pull on IRON MAN but got saddled with a director in Martin Campbell with no skill or genuine interest at/in the genre.

 

[regwec]

saddled with a director in Martin Campbell with no skill or genuine interest at/in the genre.

Martin Campbell has no skill? He directed Goldeneye and Casino Royale, two of the most admired Bond movies in a fifty-year-old series.

 

[baerrtt]

Martin Campbell has no skill? He directed Goldeneye and Casino Royale, two of the most admired Bond movies in a fifty-year-old series.

I said no skill at sci-fi as in no skill at the genre he was hired to tackle. Outside the Bond films and THE MARK OF ZORRO Campbell is a hit and miss journeyman and his action directing cannot disguise or enhance a poor script which GL had.

 

[regwec]

I don't know why you would assume he is unable to direct Sci-Fi. GL is a shoddy movie, but I doubt it was the genre itself which particularly foxed him.

 

[baerrtt]

I don't know why you would assume he is unable to direct Sci-Fi. GL is a shoddy movie, but I doubt it was the genre itself which particularly foxed him.

In the interviews at the time of the production I got the distinct impression that Campbell wasn't as assured and confident as he was on the Bond films for example. Those pictures are producer controlled yet Martin creatively added alot (he suggested M be a woman for example). Yet on GL there seemed to be none of that.

 

[CaptainWagner]

-Well, to begin, we've only seen one movie from the DCCU, so we really have no idea what they plan "tone-wise". It really should come down to a case-by-case basis. Batman, Wonder Woman, Aquaman, those all work with a darker, grittier tone. Shazam, Green Lantern, and Flash would need a much lighter tone.

 

[WBwins]

This thread needs a poll.

The question itself is somewhat fallacious, though, as there is not a single tone throughout the movies (which are made by WB, not DC). Furthermore, different characters merit different tones. You couldn't really make a Shazam movie with the same tone as a Batman movie.

Poll added

 

[regwec]

I predict a comfortable victory for option 4, with option 1 in second. It's a pity that the poll is anonymous, as an open poll would have helped to identify the Marvelists.

 

[WBwins]

I predict a comfortable victory for option 4, with option 1 in second. It's a pity that the poll is anonymous, as an open poll would have helped to identify the Marvelists.

Lol I know option 4 most likely wld win but i am biased towards option 1.
I like Marvel and Dc having distinct tones for their films.Especially considering the fact Marvel sucked at serious tone(Incredible hulk) and DC sucked at Action Comedy(GL)

 

[DA_Champion]

Nice thread.

 

[WBwins]

No one voting for MCU film tone.With all the whining I hear about DC being too serious Im suprised

Nice thread.

Thanks.

 

[DA_Champion]

It's the DC boards, so the Marvel fans just might not be visiting.

 

[WBwins]

It's the DC boards, so the Marvel fans just might not be visiting.

Most of the whining ive heard come from DC fans on BVS forums.Like zryson for instance

 

[Quasimod0]

I would want the tone to vary based on character. Superman and the Flash DO NOT need the dark seriousness of the Batman films. That works perfectly for Batman, but Superman and the Flash are more fun characters. They work best with a lighter tone, imo.

 

[regwec]

I was trying to think of a movie which successfully mixed some fairly dark material with some broad comedy, and the best example I came up with was Demolition Man. None of its characters are very deeply explored, however, and that led me to wonder whether it is not the material itself that needs to be confined to create a consistent tone, but the emotional spectrum that needs to be kept quite superficial.

 

[Aejej]

Nope! Why watch the exact same four movies every year? Why not have two Marvel style pop summer fun blockbusters and two sombre DC epics?

I loved TDKR and MoS warts and all. The problems lay in their scripts, not in their tone. But if DC puts out that style of superhero movie all the time, I'll never get sick of it.

Another fan here of Nolan's trilogy from first to final frame, and MoS, too. I think the critical factor with the latter is that many people could not handle the neck snap because it conflicted with their general concept of what Superman is about. They didn't accept that this was a clean reboot and we're not going to have Donner-Superman anymore.

Personally, I think a little Nolan rubbed off on the Russo brothers. Captain America: The Winter Soldier was great. The most serious Marvel film so far and my favorite. The Fury-Winter Soldier street scene was a discernible echo of the Joker and Batman in TDK.

No, sudden change of tone didn't help the ASM2 series.

and Green Lantern shows they haven't exactly mastered light-hearted superhero material.

Green Lantern mystified with its inclusion of a large sentient cloud in the wake of a Fantastic Four sequel that also featured a large genocidal cloud for a villain. I may be wrong, but I recall Geoff Johns had something to do with that, which is...something else. Green Lantern could have been much better, but it lacked the epic scope it needed and the role the Corps plays in the cosmos seemed understated. Sinestro's line about the Earth being lost was invalidated after Hal defeated Cloud-thing. The "tone" of the film was fine, but the cinematography and FX were sketchy at times, and the script should have been revised from head to toe.

 

[regwec]

Good post. Double Points.

 

[Victarion]

Thanks for replying back. My issue is the belief ,assuming that is WB's plan going forward, that making things darker and grounded to automatically ensure a better and successful product(in light of the fortune Nolan's Bat trilogy made) doesn't automatically work with superhero CBMs unless you have the right talent involved. Likewise GL tried emulating the same moves Favreau was given free reign to pull on IRON MAN but got saddled with a director in Martin Campbell with no skill or genuine interest at/in the genre.

It does seem like there's a very clearcut dichotomy in terms of tone in the vast majority of CBM's. Iron-Man 3, however, has a great balance of humor and grounded darkness. Here, I use grounded in reference to the real-world issues briefly addressed through the Mandarin's scheme and Tony's response to it as well as the wormhole aftermath. Humor in the reveal of Trevor and Tony's interactions with the kid.

I think there's room for CBMs that embrace the fantasy, and science fantasy, while also maintaining a darker tone. Here, darker in the sense that you might see Poison Ivy as the leader of a drug cartel that happens to use human-plant hybrid creatures as her heavies. Her decisions, actions etc would be those that you'd expect from a cartel boss whose operations come under attack. Her response is carried out through very comic booky means. This is what I'd like to see done more.

 

[Fincher]

I suppose Option #1 would be my choice, but silly characters like the hobbits in LotR would not be appropriate. Humor should be naturalistic, coming from convincing human dialogue. No slapstick, no lampshading, no camp.