Comics Sins Past Ret-con.......

[ben_reilly_s_s]

Unfortunalty it also ret-cons "the Night Gwen Stacy died" story....

Just hear me out...

What if the Gwen that Norman procreated (cant use another word for fear of getting nighmare inducing images in head) with was really a Skrull, and that was who he really killed. What if that's why he really killed her - cause he was so embarrassed about it.

It means Jackal created Gwen for false reasons, and She's still alive on Skrull homeworld.

*It's really late here, I forgot where I was going with this*

 

[wolvie2020]

Unfortunalty it also ret-cons "the Night Gwen Stacy died" story....

Just hear me out...

What if the Gwen that Norman procreated (cant use another word for fear of getting nighmare inducing images in head) with was really a Skrull, and that was who he really killed. What if that's why he really killed her - cause he was so embarrassed about it.

It means Jackal created Gwen for false reasons, and She's still alive on Skrull homeworld.

*It's really late here, I forgot where I was going with this*

It's good to know you care about Gwen. I love(d) her. *sob!*

 

[The Joker]

Damn you, ben. Your thread title led me to believe there was an official retcon coming

 

[Hobgoblin]

Dude, you're not well. You need to go to bed, sleep it off and get professional help tomorrow. Seriously man, I'm worried about you.

 

[Norman Osborn]

DAMN IT!!

The last 20 seconds of my life was an emotional rollercoster

 

[Cullen]

DAMN IT!!

The last 20 seconds of my life was an emotional rollercoster

Ditto.

What? You were expecting Shakespeare? t:

 

[VICTORVONDOOMX]

MJ is a Skrull. (Why else would she lie to Pete about "knowing" Gwen slept with Norman)

Norman is a Skrull. (The real one is still dead, thank God...)

Aunt May is a Skrull. (All actual Spidey fans know that she died in Amazing #400.)

Kane is still a Clone. (Hopefully he'll return and kick Pete's butt for being manipulated by the above Skrulls- along with the Tony & Reed Skrulls- into revealing his SECRET identity.)

If done correctly, this Skrull thing could fix a LOT of mischaracterization and BAD writing.

 

[freemadison]

MJ is a Skrull. (Why else would she lie to Pete about "knowing" Gwen slept with Norman)

Norman is a Skrull. (The real one is still dead, thank God...)

Aunt May is a Skrull. (All actual Spidey fans know that she died in Amazing #400.)

Kane is still a Clone. (Hopefully he'll return and kick Pete's butt for being manipulated by the above Skrulls- along with the Tony & Reed Skrulls- into revealing his SECRET identity.)

If done correctly, this Skrull thing could fix a LOT of mischaracterization and BAD writing.

Ironically, the same thing was said about the Clone Saga when it was first proposed. Look how that turned out...

 

[VICTORVONDOOMX]

I was TOTALLY prepared for Ben to BE the REAL Spidey 'til "leadership" reared it's ugly head. I'd always been bugged by the way Amazing #150 (Vol 1) ended.

Perhaps they can get something right for a change.

 

[JJJ's Ulcer]

Turning the Gwen who died into a skrull just to retcon "Sins Past" is akin to amputating your hand to get rid of a pesky splinter on your finger.

In other words your proposed "fix" is a lot more damaging and dumb-sounding than the very storyline you're fixing. Sorry.

 

[Doc_OCK_4MUGEN]

how about this...the Watcher dozed off and changed the channel and for the last few yeas we were not reading stories from the 616 universe.. instead, we were watchng an alternate universe unfold before our very eyes...

 

[Xofenroht]

How about we just accept it as something that happened and moved on. It's not like stuff like what happened between Gwen and Norman doesn't actually happen. People do things "out of character" all the time.

 

[VICTORVONDOOMX]

WTFE! Yelling at my kids is out of character for me, but sometimes it happens. Sexing up one of my kids' teen friends- not even an option.
That crap wasn't even an option within the scope of Gwen's personality. Sheesh!

 

[JJJ's Ulcer]

WTFE! Yelling at my kids is out of character for me, but sometimes it happens. Sexing up one of my kids' teen friends- not even an option.
That crap wasn't even an option within the scope of Gwen's personality. Sheesh!

You're also not Norman Osborn. In terms of evil deeds, seducing Gwen wouldn't even rank on a list that includes wanton murder, torture, abduction of infants and orchastrating *gulp* clone-sagas.

Having said that, I'm not a fan of 'Sins Past.' No sir. But I wish people would be able to let it go. It happened almost three years ago and has been referenced once or twice since. I think Marvel got the message that they overstepped their boundaries and are now quietly forgetting it ala clone-saga. But retconning it now would only make the story and that continuity even more incomprehensible.

 

[VICTORVONDOOMX]

"Let it go"? What the heck is the internet FOR then?

But seriously, if you remember, at that time, when not psychotic, Norman was a "good man" who tried to do the right thing. He hadn't been the Goblin for a while and only reverted just RIGHT before abducting and killing Gwen. So, because of an egregious error which JMS could have avoided with a minimum of research, a much-beloved character was maligned. I know that is part of why I'll never let this go. An Editor should have edited that nonsense.

 

[JJJ's Ulcer]

Hah! Norman a good man?! Norman was never a good man!

Long before he ingested his wacky serum, he neglected and emotionally abused his only son to the point that he was permanently messed up, and framed his business partner and supposed friend Mendel Stromm for embezzlement so he could have sole control of his company. And that's just story established by Lee. If you take the Untold Tales as canon he also hired criminals from the underworld to torture and take on Spider-Man as well.

So... good man? Dude, I want some of what you're smoking, because Norman was always a sick SOB, even when he wasn't the Goblin. Seducing a teenage girl was just par for the course. And when did JMS say that Norman wasn't having one of his "goblin moments" when that happened?

Man, I never thought I'd be defending Sins Past.

 

[VICTORVONDOOMX]

Yes, I perfectly manipulated you into doing that. Give you a sick feeling in your stomach?

But seriously, after he reverted back around issue 99, they kind of ignored all that back story that paints him as you've just described. Before the Death of Gwen, he was all "oh I'm so worried about Harry..." If the internet had been around then it would have caused an uproar.

 

[wolvie2020]

"Let it go"? What the heck is the internet FOR then?

But seriously, if you remember, at that time, when not psychotic, Norman was a "good man" who tried to do the right thing. He hadn't been the Goblin for a while and only reverted just RIGHT before abducting and killing Gwen. So, because of an egregious error which JMS could have avoided with a minimum of research, a much-beloved character was maligned. I know that is part of why I'll never let this go. An Editor should have edited that nonsense.

Yea, I have to agree. Normally I'm not into the endless bashin/*****ing, but the really effed up on this one.

What was REALLY annoying was the amount of times everyone involved, (except poor Deodato,) openly stated that GWen was waaaaaay 2-D, and this made her more into a real person

It's an insult on women fulll stop imo

Gwen was a hardass, and she deeply loved Peter.

Gwen was always 3-D, but she wasn't, and can't be as entertaining as MJ. Lee/Romita/Conway have all stated this. That's just the type of people they are/were. Doesn't make you less of a decent/intersting person just 'cause you're less lively

 

[wolvie2020]

Yes, I perfectly manipulated you into doing that. Give you a sick feeling in your stomach?

But seriously, after he reverted back around issue 99, they kind of ignored all that back story that paints him as you've just described. Before the Death of Gwen, he was all "oh I'm so worried about Harry..." If the internet had been around then it would have caused an uproar.

This is very true. At that time Norman was like that. It's what inspired how a lot of things happened in various animated series, and the film.

Norman really did become the most disturbing SOB in the Spidey-verse After he killed Gwen.

Although there has been some really good stories with Norman after he was brought back, it really does cheapen the classic story by keeping him alive.

 

[JJJ's Ulcer]

Yes, I perfectly manipulated you into doing that. Give you a sick feeling in your stomach?

Yes. Like bad Indian curry.

But seriously, after he reverted back around issue 99, they kind of ignored all that back story that paints him as you've just described. Before the Death of Gwen, he was all "oh I'm so worried about Harry..." If the internet had been around then it would have caused an uproar.

Story-wise, who's to say that wasn't all an act? A ruse by an extremely manipulative and shrewd man? Logically, since it seems Lee was retconning Norman's previous behavior, one could make the argument that JMS was going back to basics as Norman was originally intended. You're right... the internet would have *****ed about that, just as it's now *****ing about this. How Lee wrote Norman at that time was out-of-character considering the previously established continuity.

Having said all that, I'm not saying "Sins Past" was a good story or even an average one. The idea of super-aged kids was a tired cliche by the 90's when Franklin Richards was PSI-Lord or some nonsense. It made no sense for MJ to keep it a secret and that indeed WAS out of character. However I like to play devil's advocate even when it comes to unpopular stories like "Sins Past" and was tired of people saying Norman was out-of-character because to me the character was always a mean son of a *****... even when Lee started to write him differently with no explanation.

 

[VICTORVONDOOMX]

JJJ's Ulcer and Wolvie2020, you are brilliant and I concur with you both.

On the note about Stan's retcon of Norman's behavior... I think they were trying to put a more "realistic" spin on mental illness. Back then Schizophrenia and split personality were often confused by the general public (still are, really).

 

[Doc_OCK_4MUGEN]

Gwen WAS out of character...

 

[Sloth7d]

How about it was all a bad dream Peter had.
Or that was a clone Stacy Norman did it to, but the real one still died on the Brooklyn (or was it Washington) Bridge.

 

[JJJ's Ulcer]

How about just not referencing it again?

 

[ben_reilly_s_s]

your just mad, cause you defended it.

:-p