So, Nightwing in the Outsiders - Do you feel...

[X]

Anything that happened with him there was out of character?

Torturing that paper pusher guy after abducting him from Africa. Having his fingers broken and Grace smashing his crotch, among other things.

Did the atmosphere after Infinite Crisis and it's repercussion's make it all viable for the Outsider's to go to the limits they used to not be willing to? Mostly applying that to Nightwing.

Did he simply take what Batman does to another level?

Thoughts?

 

[batnkevlar]

Well, Batman recognized Nightwing's descent to the dark side, so he stepped in like a father would... but like Batman must, he took the burden onto himself and kicked Nightwing off the team...

 

[X]

Do you think Judd had Nightwing and co go too far considering they used to be heroes?

 

[Aristotle]

Anything that happened with him there was out of character?

No, he behaved as he should have been behaving for the past...um...well, since he went solo.

Did he simply take what Batman does to another level?

No, he was still Batman-lite, just like always. He was just a little closer to what he should be.

 

[X]

Batman-lite is torturing people?

Bruce doesn't condone that **** period.

 

[Aristotle]

Batman has beat the living **** out of some people who weren't precisly in a position to be fighting back, really. And he has engaged in some WICKED mental torture.

Short of killing, Batman's cool with it.

 

[X]

Then his stepping in to stop Nightwing wouldn't make sense in the first place.

Batman's slapped around crooks but never had someone tied down to a chair breaking his fingers.

 

[Aristotle]

Then his stepping in to stop Nightwing wouldn't make sense in the first place.

It wasn't about Nightwing crossing the line, it was about Nightwing losing control of his team. Batman's about to take the Outsiders way darker than Nightwing ever did.

Batman's slapped around crooks but never had someone tied down to a chair breaking his fingers.

Batman's broken a finger or two. Can't think when, but I know he has. And again, his mental torture makes what the Outsiders did look like tickling.

 

[X]

Mental torture is another thing completely from more or less destroying a tied down guys crotch. Batman's game has ALWAYS been intimidation. It's what his costume and name revolve around.

I don't think tortures his MO. Nor are other questionable things. He took a hell lot more of a stand against the mindwiping than a lot of other heroes.

What's Batman about to do with the Outsiders, exactly?

 

[Harlekin]

Then his stepping in to stop Nightwing wouldn't make sense in the first place.

Well... yeah, because he doesn't want Nightwing to be kind that of person.

Of course, till Winick came along, Nightwing WASN'T that kind of person.

 

[Aristotle]

What's Batman about to do with the Outsiders, exactly?

Make them the rotten bastards they were always billed as.

Well... yeah, because he doesn't want Nightwing to be kind that of person.

Of course, till Winick came along, Nightwing WASN'T that kind of person.

Nightwing SHOULD be that kind of person.

 

[Harlekin]

Uhm, no, he SHOULDN'T be. That's not the purpose of his character. He's always been the lighter side to Batman's dark. He's the more sociable, optimistic youngster. That doesn't really relate to terrorist Nightwing we saw.

 

[Aristotle]

Uhm, no, he SHOULDN'T be. That's not the purpose of his character. He's always been the lighter side to Batman's dark. He's the more sociable, optimistic youngster. That doesn't really relate to terrorist Nightwing we saw.

Dick made a transition a long time ago. The reason he's never come into his own as a character is that people are STILL trying to portray him as Batman-light, when he should be allowed to progress into the dark hero, in a Batman mold but not reactive to or shaped around Batman, that he's supposed to be.

 

[Harlekin]

You're right in that he's never come into his own as a character because writers haven't allowed him to do so. Every time we finally get rid of the "woe is me, I'm in Batman's shadow", some other writer brings it back. That however, doesn't mean we have to make him "darker" than Batman or even similarly dark. That's never been his thing, and is counter-productive to the whole "move away from Batman"-thing. Nightwing is a superhero. Y'see, Nightwing had come into his own as leader of the (Teen) Titans, but well... they ****ed that one up eventually.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

I've never really looked at Dick as Batman-lite. He's the counterpoint to Batman. He uses some of Batman's tactics, sure, but he's been molded as much into his own hero by his time with the Titans as by his training under Bruce. He really felt like the central character of the DC universe to me before Infinite Crisis--the guy everyone knows and likes. He was trained by Batman, founded the Titans, got his superhero name from Superman, etc. He was also much lighter a character than Bruce and a much better leader by example than Bruce.

I'm pretty disappointed in the direction they've taken him, myself. Beyond just torturing that guy, I'm pretty sure the Outsiders killed people. Even if Dick were Batman-lite, there's no way he should be condoning that, especially after his pre-IC ordeal with Blockbuster ostensibly had him recommitting to his good-natured, full-on superhero role. All of the dark times he endured to come through on the other side better than ever were apparently dashed because he's now right back in some more dark times, compromising his morals and falling into moral gray areas--only this time Winick wrote it, so it's nowhere near as good as the first time around. When Dan Didio said they didn't really know what to do with Nightwing after IC because he was originally supposed to die in Conner's stead, I thought he was just kidding. Given how his character's been thrown back and forth between darkness and light after recommitting to the light pretty clearly beforehand, it seems he wasn't exaggerating at all.

 

[Anubis]

They've dropped the ball with Nightwing since day one of OYL. They could have really done something with the character but they've done nothing. Shame really.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Yeah, especially since he was poised to be really interesting with all the stuff that happened at the end of his pre-IC comics.

 

[SouLeSS]

All I know, is Tim would make a much better Batman than Dick would in like 3 years.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Absolutely. The way I see it, Bruce's partners are all magnified aspects of him--Dick is the noble superhero/inspiring leader, Tim is the supergenius detective, Batgirl is the unstoppable fighter, and... well, actually, I don't know how Babs fits in anymore, since she's evolved into very much her own thing. But still, of an inspiring superhero leader, a supergenius detective, or an unstoppable fighter, which one really encapsulates what Bruce is about at his core? The supergenius detective, of course. Thus, Tim is the most logical Batman replacement. He can acquire decent skills in the other areas--in fact, he's a far better fighter now and he's leading the Titans reasonably wel--but Bruce himself has mentioned that Tim has the potential to be even smarter than he is. The brain is any Batman's greatest asset.

 

[SouLeSS]

I always thought Babs would make for a killer JLA member inplace of a telepath to contact everyone at the same time and get intel all over the place.

Like on the JLU when Martian Manhunter wasn't doing anything but keeping at the Watchtower.

 

[Anubis]

Been there, done that.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Yeah, she served that function for several arcs in the Morrison/Waid/Kelly JLA era. I wouldn't mind if she took it up again, but I think she's supposed to be more focused on the Birds of Prey now.

 

[King Namor]

I didn't care for his portrayal in the Outsiders. Religion in comics is generally non-existent or portrayed negatively. So when a character is devout to their faith whatever it is it interest me and makes the character more human. I liked Dick because he was a Christian but wasn't obnoxious about it. It was very quiet and subtle but was always there. He might be seen wearing a cross or have a bible on an end table, I remember he had Jars of Clay and DC Talk in his CD collection. He was always quiet and good, and was never introverted or brooding like Bats and tried to be positive even though he had a bad childhood. He liked everyone and was an Eagle Scout type guy. Its kind of sad they turned him almost evil... I thought Jason was the evil Robin.

 

[SouLeSS]

See thats the thing with Dick. I never can really picture him being better than any form of Bats cause he's so soft. He's like, the soft side of Batman as a hero. Tim in like 10 years will take the Batman mantle and be a total badass about it like Bruce is, but Dick will always be that guy that kinda 'failed' at becomming Batman because he wasn't deep enough.

 

[King Namor]

See thats the thing with Dick. I never can really picture him being better than any form of Bats cause he's so soft. He's like, the soft side of Batman as a hero. Tim in like 10 years will take the Batman mantle and be a total badass about it like Bruce is, but Dick will always be that guy that kinda 'failed' at becomming Batman because he wasn't deep enough.

Being the soft side of Batman is not bad thing. What you perceive as soft, is being inherently good, ethical and positive. Although Bats can be portrayed with those same qualities he can also be a brooding vigilante. Dick's no softer than Superman or Marvel or WW. To me he was always more of a Daredevil or street level Supes type character, .

Dick wanted to distance himself from becoming Batman and wanted to be a own hero in his own right and not a graduated Robin. But Tim wants to be Batman, he want to be the Greatest Detective, there is a difference.