So tell me, what was wrong with B89's Joker?

[Penismightier]

Another point alluded to by Cain was that Jack was like a blended Joker from all of the previous eras of comic books up until that time. They blended the comedic and sadistic aspects of the character, a lot like Mark Hamill did in the Animated Series. I've always been in favor of the blending of the aspects of the character, as it makes him more well-rounded and three dimensional.

 

[DARKxGOTHAMITE]

Another point alluded to by Cain was that Jack was like a blended Joker from all of the previous eras of comic books up until that time. They blended the comedic and sadistic aspects of the character, a lot like Mark Hamill did in the Animated Series. I've always been in favor of the blending of the aspects of the character, as it makes him more well-rounded and three dimensional.

Indeed

 

[Gianakin_]

Another point alluded to by Cain was that Jack was like a blended Joker from all of the previous eras of comic books up until that time. They blended the comedic and sadistic aspects of the character, a lot like Mark Hamill did in the Animated Series. I've always been in favor of the blending of the aspects of the character, as it makes him more well-rounded and three dimensional.

Agreed, but do you refer to Michael Caine or Bob Kane?

 

[Penismightier]

The last few sentences mean nothing to me, sorry. I judge from what I saw in the movie. What he professes, says or does for the role outside of the finished product is not a factor for me. Why he'd pretend? Don't know, I'm really only taking a guess here.

I can see his love for the character in the movie. He looked like he was having a blast being The Joker. I can feel the joy in his performance and finding the hilarity in causing all that mayhem.

 

[Penismightier]

Agreed, but do you refer to Michael Caine or Bob Kane?

Neither, I was referring to Cain, the poster above me.

 

[Gianakin_]

I can see his love for the character in the movie. He looked like he was having a blast being The Joker. I can feel the joy in his performance and finding the hilarity in causing all that mayhem.

And I never disputed that. All I'm saying is, I never felt what you did. But I did feel all that when I saw DeVito as the Pwnguin. Tha's the definition of getting into the role, for me.

 

[Gianakin_]

Neither, I was referring to Cain, the poster above me.

Heh, ok then!

 

[mad-sci]

A few points about B89's Joker:-

GOOD

1) Easily the most recognized comic-book villain on the silver screen (bigger than Hackman's Luthor, McKellan's Magneto or Dafoe's Goblin), all due to Nicholson's on-screen performance. Ask any random (i.e. non-internet fan) on the street about a comic-book villain, and B89's Joker will always be mentioned.

2) Probably the most quoted comic-book character on screen. e.g. "Where does he get those wonderful toys?", "Have you ever danced in the pale moonlight?" and "He stole my balloons!"


BAD

1) It was never the Joker (as played by Jack Nicholson), but the reverse. Just as in B&R's Mr. Freeze, the star was bigger than the character being played, making it impossible to appreciate the full extent of the Joker's personality.

2) The conversion of Jack Napier to Joker consists of the skin bleach and perma-smile only. In terms of personality, Nicholson portrayed the two characters as essentially the same (making his 'transformation' redundant, and adding zero character development).

3) The chaotic nature of the Joker was far too 'ordered' (if you'll pardon the pun). He takes control of the mob in Gotham, hooks up with his boss's girlfriend, and uses the resources to CONTROL the city. Granted, he kills people randomly (without remorse) and creates scenes of chaos, but the character appears more interested in Vicky Vale (WHY???), or

4) His relationship with Batman. Firstly, the Joker killing Bruce's parents adds another twist to the relationship, but screws up everything else. As a character of chaos, the Joker is both fascinated and disgusted by Batman (forever stuck between wanting to kill him, and wanting to keep him alive), whereas in the film the Joker just wants him dead.


Those are some of the reasons...

 

[Gianakin_]

Agreed, along with Vader, he IS extemely recognisable.

 

[mcflytrap]

Tim Burtons first was my introduction to Batman, so I have nothing to compare that films Joker to. I've gathered that most long time fans (some of my friends included) weren't happy with that films/Jack Nicholson's take on the character. Why not?

And is there anyone else that's worried about the dialogue in the teaser sounding like a Jack Nicholson's Joker impression?

The teaser sounded nothing like Jack Nicholson. NOTHING.

 

[Mitthrawnuruodo]

The teaser sounded nothing like Jack Nicholson. NOTHING.

Sounded exactly like Jack to me. Which is no bad thing. Jack WAS and IS the Joker. His an almalgamation of all the eras in one stunning package.

 

[Gianakin_]

You mean WAS and IS to you, right?

 

[Two-Face]

I don't know how can you say Ledger's voice sounded like Nicholson, trust me, it was nothing like Nicholson.

 

[Mr. Socko]

Besides Jack being in his 50s at the time and Joker being the killer of Bruce Wayne's parents, I had no problem with Jack's Joker. I thought he was near perfect. Visual look, attire, and characterization was perfect. If only he had been around the same age as he was in Cuckcoo's Nest.

Jack Nicholson's Joker is still the ONLY comic book villain in history to ever make the AFI list of top villains.

 

[Joker]

Tim Burtons first was my introduction to Batman, so I have nothing to compare that films Joker to. I've gathered that most long time fans (some of my friends included) weren't happy with that films/Jack Nicholson's take on the character. Why not?

And is there anyone else that's worried about the dialogue in the teaser sounding like a Jack Nicholson's Joker impression?

Anyone who isnt a fan of that performance is crazy. It captured perfectly the Joker of that time (it was wrote and shot pre-Killing Joke). He was crazy, over the top, and sick. The only problem I have is that Jack Nicholson is such a name, that most people can see right through the character to him, and it takes me out of the movie a bit.

 

[Gianakin_]

Anyone who isnt a fan of that performance is crazy. It captured perfectly the Joker of that time (it was wrote and shot pre-Killing Joke). He was crazy, over the top, and sick. The only problem I have is that Jack Nicholson is such a name, that most people can see right through the character to him, and it takes me out of the movie a bit.

I don't think it was written before TKJ. Didn't Burton read TKJ and said that he'd use that graphic novel as the base for the Joker's characterisation?
And, as I said, I'm a fan of the performance itself, but it was still Jack.

 

[Mr. Socko]

Yes, I know. 90% of the people who hate Nicholson's Joker can only refute the lame point of "It was just Jack being Jack," you can't really think of a real reason, now can you? But of'course then you'll come back with "he wasn't tall enough 'n t00 fat so he sucked!" Fact is, every thing Nicholson did in Batman '89 was completely in character of the Joker. Batman '89 has several flaws, Jack Nicholson as The Joker is not one of them.

As long as you're only ill-witted response is "It was Jack playing Jack," your point is diminished entirely and this discussion is over.

 

[Gianakin_]

Yes, I know. 90% of the people who hate Nicholson's Joker can only refute the lame point of "It was just Jack being Jack," you can't really think of a real reason, now can you? But of'course then you'll come back with "he wasn't tall enough 'n t00 fat so he sucked!" Fact is, every thing Nicholson did in Batman '89 was completely in character of the Joker. Batman '89 has several flaws, Jack Nicholson as The Joker is not one of them.

I really hope you don't mean me, as I don't hate his Joker.
And if you find my point lame and not valid enough, I can't say anything more on the subject. I respect the fact that you find him near perfect and I wish you would respect my reason for not agreeing.

 

[Superwoman Prime]

2) The conversion of Jack Napier to Joker consists of the skin bleach and perma-smile only. In terms of personality, Nicholson portrayed the two characters as essentially the same (making his 'transformation' redundant, and adding zero character development).

Oh my god. What a *****ing moron you are, mad-sci.

The transformation in personality from Jack Napier the hitman to The Joker was devastating. Sam Hamm, Tim Burton, and Jack Nicholson have my praise for achieving that to perfection.

HITMAN: We have this guy whose behavior is damn near stoic. He's a hardened criminal with insubstantial joy in life. I would even call him washed-up. Tired. Lathargic. What little sense of humor present, is dry as a desert.

JOKER: His sanity cracks as soon as that hand mirror does. That hysterical laughter marked the obvious 180 turn in personality and mindset. Jack, as he says to Carl, really is dead. What we have now is his repressed comical side surfaced to stay. Aside from sadism, The Joker is everything Jack the Hitman wasn't: colorful, flashy, childlike, and extroverted.

 

[Mr. LOL]

I wouldn't say anything was "wrong" per se ... but I prefer a much darker / sinister version of the character. Jack's was more prankster than serial killer. The image I hold as the most terrifying form of the character, is the one seen in the very first incarnation in Batman #1. Jack was great in the movie, probably the best performance within the franchise ... and one that was often imitated. However, I like the mix in terms of chemistry for what the Joker represents in Nolan's take on the character. There was only a few instances where I was scared with Jack's character. Like I said, he leaned more towards the prankster side of the character ... with a dash of menacing grit. Nolan's view, aligned much more with the original incarnation has more of that menacing Jack the Ripper / Zodiac type vibe, accentuated by the practical joke / Clown type theatricality.

 

[Swordmaster]

I loved Nicholson's performance as Joker, absolutely loved it. The main problem, to me, is that he was very...likeable. I liked the guy, which I really shouldn't. I want to hate him, so that when he gets his ass handed to him, you're rooting against him, maybe even cheering.

But that's the only problem. Everything else was great to me.

 

[Mr. LOL]

I agree Swordmaster. Well put. And I kind of hinted @ that. Jack is very likeable. I even love him in The Departed, and he comes off as a worse guy in that, then he does in B'89. It's just, Jack is naturally charismatic, and then he's going even over board as the Joker. It was enthralling, and it actually as 'Swordmaster' said ... makes you kind of like him. And no matter what anyone tells you, you're never supposed to like and/or cheer, or even feel comfortable with the Joker. He's supposed to bemaking your skin crawl, and making you feel so un-easy @ the simple sight of him.

 

[DocLathropBrown]

Jack Nicholson was ace. He gave the role his all, and it's evident in the fact that it's reportedly his most favorite role.

Jack is as much the Joker as Mark Hamill. People who don't see the Joker in him are trying their best not to.

Not scary? Matter of opinion, but at the tender age of three/four, I was introduced to Jack's Joker. Nightmares ensued.

Performance? Jack has been known to phone in some performances. Not blatently, but sometimes. He didn't. Not for this role. Hell, his being too old didn't factor in visually (not too much, that is) due to the manic behavior and the white makeup.

Should the Joker be darker than Jack's performance? Listen, Jack is just the right cross between killer and clown. The current comics, TDK (it seems at the moment) and young fans in general want an over-the-top, 'R'-rated son of Satan. That's kind of getting away from the point of the Joker. He's not supposed to be Leatherface. He doesn't exist for killing. He lives to toy with people, get a few laughs, and then kill them.

Really, think about the Joker's actions in B89. Obviously, they're dead-on from the comics, but think about the gravity of what he's doing, just how many people he's killing and plans to kill. Jack's Joker is pretty f---ed up. We're all just so used to the movie that we kind of look past it.

 

[Mr. LOL]

The Joker is chaos incarnate. No where is he "Leatherface" in any form, shape or fashion ... he still has personality, and theatricality as part of his guise. He lives to kill people, b/c THAT'S the joke. That everyone takes life too "seriously" ... and he doesn't understand why they don't "get the joke." In his intial creation, he is labeled as a "harlequin of hate". He's an oxymoron. He's smiling, but he utterly hates you. He doesn't "live for jokes". He's an absolute fear-less nutball. He's inspired by the Batman, in terms of theatricality ... so putting on makeup to look more like a clown is an extension of that. It's a horrific act that creates the Joker. Not how he gets white skin and green hair. He deliberetly chooses to act like a clown.

This post:

A few points about B89's Joker:

GOOD

1) Easily the most recognized comic-book villain on the silver screen (bigger than Hackman's Luthor, McKellan's Magneto or Dafoe's Goblin), all due to Nicholson's on-screen performance. Ask any random (i.e. non-internet fan) on the street about a comic-book villain, and B89's Joker will always be mentioned.

2) Probably the most quoted comic-book character on screen. e.g. "Where does he get those wonderful toys?", "Have you ever danced in the pale moonlight?" and "He stole my balloons!"


BAD

1) It was never the Joker (as played by Jack Nicholson), but the reverse. Just as in B&R's Mr. Freeze, the star was bigger than the character being played, making it impossible to appreciate the full extent of the Joker's personality.

2) The conversion of Jack Napier to Joker consists of the skin bleach and perma-smile only. In terms of personality, Nicholson portrayed the two characters as essentially the same (making his 'transformation' redundant, and adding zero character development).

3) The chaotic nature of the Joker was far too 'ordered' (if you'll pardon the pun). He takes control of the mob in Gotham, hooks up with his boss's girlfriend, and uses the resources to CONTROL the city. Granted, he kills people randomly (without remorse) and creates scenes of chaos, but the character appears more interested in Vicky Vale (WHY???), or

4) His relationship with Batman. Firstly, the Joker killing Bruce's parents adds another twist to the relationship, but screws up everything else. As a character of chaos, the Joker is both fascinated and disgusted by Batman (forever stuck between wanting to kill him, and wanting to keep him alive), whereas in the film the Joker just wants him dead.

Is the best post in terms of breaking down the character from B'89. Great post, and dead accurate.

 

[Superwoman Prime]

No, it wasn't dead accurate. *rolls eyes* Read my reply to his BAD #2.