So when can Superheroes go back to fighting crime...

Civil War inconsistancy number 1
SHIELD: "Thank you Captain America for helping us with the Red Skull again."
Cap:"Anytime. So you guys have anything else I can do???
SHIELD:"Hey this law is gonna be passed in weeks......"
Cap:"HEROES SHOULD WORK FOR THE GOVERNMENT!!!!!! NO BLOOD FOR OIL!!!!!!!! BRING HOME THE TROOPS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
roach said:
Civil War inconsistancy number 1
SHIELD: "Thank you Captain America for helping us with the Red Skull again."
Cap:"Anytime. So you guys have anything else I can do???
SHIELD:"Hey this law is gonna be passed in weeks......"
Cap:"HEROES SHOULD WORK FOR THE GOVERNMENT!!!!!! NO BLOOD FOR OIL!!!!!!!! BRING HOME THE TROOPS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Yeah, thats not how it went down.:confused:


She was going to make him hunt down his pals, and he didnt want any of that. So really, I understand parody, but thats really skewing the scene.
 
Darthphere said:
Yeah, thats not how it went down.:confused:


She was going to make him hunt down his pals, and he didnt want any of that. So really, I understand parody, but thats really skewing the scene.


it's called creative licence and I was drawing attention to the point that Captain America who has a good relationship with the Government and SHIELD would voice opinions that heroes shouldnt work for the government because they would be the ones to tell them who to go after.....when they(to an extent) tell Cap who to go after.
 
roach said:
it's called creative licence and I was drawing attention to the point that Captain America who has a good relationship with the Government and SHIELD would voice opinions that heroes shouldnt work for the government because they would be the ones to tell them who to go after.....when they(to an extent) tell Cap who to go after.


They also tell him who he cant go after, but oh my...he goes after them anyway. Cap has a history of not following orders, and this goes beyond the last couple of years.
 
Yeah, I don't get why people are stumbling over the soldier bit. Cap disobeying orders and going against the government on issues is nothing new. It's actually par for the course at this point. He's never really been the unquestioning patriot.
 
Its like the one thing hes done thats been completely in character.
 
roach said:
so what you are saying is that just accept the bad characterization:(

no i was saying i didnt think it was bad characterisation, i said i thought exiles suffered from bad characterisation with mimic, when the new creative team came along. someone else came along and said mimic was always a *****, he wasnt changed into one. therefore that shows its really opinion. i also said comics are fickle and your heroes will be hepres again in a couple of months.

peter parker has always been the underdog, now he's got something good and wants to go with that.he's not a dumbass though and is reconsidering.

tony stark is the politics man where as captain america is about ideals. cap came from a time where he was the front line in fighting nazis and woke up in a time where he was a living legend.he holds heroes above such risky moves as registration. tony stark believes law is law even if, at first, he didn't like it.he may have been manipulative but people forget that when he hired titanium man he did it as a plan to show why the law was wrong, originally. he didnt just instantly fall down to the government and say "ok, i'll do whatever you say" but the law IS the law.

I thought the thing's position was totally commendable and that, despite certain writers being a bit harsh on that side of his character, Mr Fantastic thinks with his head before his heart.

Going back to House of M, quicksilver has always been a bit of a scumbag and scarlet witch was previously unstable.

so yes our heroes are being pitted against each other but it's opinion as to whether it's bad characterisation. i think whenever it's done there is a good effort to explain why.also this is a MODERN TREND. people are trying something new. Some people don't like it and it won't always be this way. I for one am indifferent. i like civil war and although i didnt read House of M i hear it was slow and poorly written so i'm not going to! i think my point still stands...
 
Darthphere said:
Its like the one thing hes done thats been completely in character.
Well, he's been leading the resistance pretty well, too. That's characteristic of Cap. Given the truly massive proportional difference in resources between the pro-reg guys and his group, I imagine anyone other than Cap would've been shut down already.
 
Just to intrude here, but, "Quicksilver was always a scumbag"? "Wanda was previously unstable"? True points, but the problem with HOM was that there was no progression back to these character "regressions". They just happened. It was retroactively claimed that "Wanda'd been going crazy", even though it was over 10 years in real time when that happened, same thing with Quicksilver being a villian. Both of them have spent more time as Avengers than as Brotherhood agents, and both of them in the previous decade had resettled into rather stable B-List Avenger status. Heck, Quicksilver'd been removed from the roster at various points, but Wanda usually remained, usually to keep the "chick ratio" at about 2-3 members, most likely. They'd overcome that insane devotion to their father Magneto.

Avengers sales went down, mostly because Chuck Austen had a run there, despite almost all of collective fandom bemoaning his presence (sort of like they bemoaned the Clone Saga, which Marvel dragged on about a year longer than they had to, or Liefield on art, which has produced nothing but sale sucking bombs since the late 90's, etc). They need a big name for their event, so they get Bendis, who's never let someone else's work hamper his own. So they revert the Maximoffs back to states they hadn't seen in over a decade and treated it as a progression, without the actual progression. The aim was shock value, and it failed, because its constantly needed to be defended, debated, and criticisms shot down with the excuse of "hey, look, it sold gangbusters". McDonald's makes billions, does that mean if you get a worm in your burger, you should just eat it with a smile?

And y'know the irony of HOM? Quicksilver's actions really weren't that evil, at least not in the classical sense. He basically manipulated events to make most of Marvel's heroes have their wishes come true, and to elevate mutants into the role humans have. Humans got the short end, but it wasn't full of neo-apocalyptic slave camps for them, like a lot of angsty dark realities. Many characters were even revived from death by HOM, including Gwen and Ben. Whenever I think of HOM, my mind takes me back to the two mutant kids in GOD LOVES, MAN KILLS, the ones who are murdered in the beginning which pisses off Magneto. In HOM, they would have been revived. They'd have grown up and probably had successful lives. And now a bunch of heroes are claiming they deserve to go back to death and all their accomplishments mean nothing simply because "it's right", with no rebuttal, no debate, nothing. There was a huge moral debate there, but aside for a token page (in which Jessica Drew, the heroine Bendis has a fetish for in the same way that Claremont has one for Storm, is shouted down by nearly every character in the scene), its shoved to the side in exchange for a pointless slugfest in which the heroes basically have a pyrric victory at best. HOM for all intents and purposes was the new reality; there was no risk of "collapse" or something because of Wanda's actions. She was batty, but it was the heroes who were provoking an unstable reality-warper into near oblivion.

Frankly, I hate it when a decade of character growth can be omitted simply to return someone to a default status quo. Even Whedon is guilty of this, knowtowing to overzealous Jean Grey fanatics by having Emma Frost be a mole for the Hellfire Club, despite the fact that she'd been on the "good" side for about 12 years, real time. It makes all the people who read, say, GENERATION X or something feel like they'd just completely wasted their time. Why bother caring about some grand revelation or shift or event when it can be undone in a flash for the sake of a current storyline? Brubaker's in the same hole with Vulcan.

CIVIL WAR, at least, doesn't treat the moral debate as an "elephant in the room", it actually is debated strongly in almost every chapter. The only problem is that at 70 chapters, it has almost been over-debated that you know all the agruements by now and are waiting for the story to reach Act 3.

The Question said:
Okay. I do agree here. Marvel has taken the moral ambiguity and darkness a bit too far. But that doesn't mean those things should be completely omited from comics either. That's the other extreme. There should be a balance. There should be comics with clear heroes and villains and relatively happy endings, but there should also be comics with morally ambiguous characters and not so hhappy endings. It should depend entirely upon what suits the story.
You're right, there should be a balance. That's why I buy books like MTU, AGENTS OF ALTAS, BEYOND!, etc.

But these days there seems to be little balence. The pendulum shifts towards being gritty, with anything on the other end of the spectrum being as rare as a one-shot story. Some characters need that style more than others, of course (Morrison is trying a lighter take at Batman, and its not working).
 
It depends on the character entirely. Spider-Man requires a rather light type of storytelling with plenty of depth under it. Superman requires a character from a lighthearted world in a not so light hearted world (at least the way I like Superman, which is very socially conscious). Batman is meant to be dark and (relatively) down to Earth. The Avengers, while not light hearted in the way that Marvel Team up is, shouldn't be all dark and grimm either. It depends entirely on what suits the character. What's been happening is that people are falling into what I call the Moore trap. Ever since Alan Moore came along with V for Vendetta and The Watchmen, everyone thinks that they can improve trheir books by copying his dark and gritty style, even though what made his bookls great wasn't the tone of them but the genius plots, pacing, and character developement. They're trying to copy the style when what matters is the substence.
 
The Question said:
It depends on the character entirely. Spider-Man requires a rather light type of storytelling with plenty of depth under it. Superman requires a character from a lighthearted world in a not so light hearted world (at least the way I like Superman, which is very socially conscious). Batman is meant to be dark and (relatively) down to Earth. The Avengers, while not light hearted in the way that Marvel Team up is, shouldn't be all dark and grimm either. It depends entirely on what suits the character. What's been happening is that people are falling into what I call the Moore trap. Ever since Alan Moore came along with V for Vendetta and The Watchmen, everyone thinks that they can improve trheir books by copying his dark and gritty style, even though what made his bookls great wasn't the tone of them but the genius plots, pacing, and character developement. They're trying to copy the style when what matters is the substence.
Exactly. Dark and gritty stories are a way of "injecting" a sense of quality to a work via the imitation of past stuff, rather than actual qualities. Some writers rely so much on some bits, like rape, that they should send royalty checks to their local prison cons, for keeping that crime on the cusp of society's horror. More "traditional" stories, on the other hand, like ANNIHILATION, don't have that, so they're either good or bad, with no illusions, and laid bare.

Ironically, a shift in tone can sometimes work for SOME characters in SOME stories. Spider-Man usually shouldn't be mired in Moon Knight-esque grime, but some good stories actually have come from darker Spidey stories; WOLVERINE VS. SPIDER-MAN and THE DEATH OF GWEN STACY and the SIN-EATER SAGA come to mind. On the other hand, they can also bomb entirely, like "The Spider" crapola from the 90's (where Spider-Man seemed to become almost feral, and he slapped his wife, and unlike Hank Pym, no one called him to task for it at all, whereas with Pym, it has defined his entire character to most contemporary Marvel writers). It IS a delicate balence. Many times writers and fans sometimes treat comics as being somehow easier to write than it is. Its not. Achieving the right direction for the right character at the right time and making it all work for a particular story is very hard. Mistakes can happen, but they need to be acknowledged and learned from. Hence, why Marvel's current stonewall tactic of "we make no mistakes, its only YOU, little piddly fanboy, who misinterpret what we almighty gods write for you". This leads to yes-men esque "groupthink", which is rarely helpful or beneficial for creative growth. Quite frankly, I think Bendis would improve dramatically as a writer if he got some more honest criticism. Not "you suxx!" from some fans, but honest looks at what he does well, what he doesn't, and where he is best. Marvel's not interested in trying for that with many of their "big sales = untouchable egos" writers, and that can be dilemma if they can't keep themselves in check.
 
Exactly. Writers have to stop ripping off Allan Moore and start thinking "okay, what works for this character and/or group of characters?" Even Alan Moore has said this several times, especially with his parody of the blanket darkening of comics with his "1963" series. Spider-Man should be a mix of light and dark. He's a rather light hearted character, and he sometimes has to deal with the darker side of humanity, and how he deals with that tends to lead to some good stuff. But he shouldn't be Batman where he's always brooding and borderline homicidal himself. I'm a bit of a writer myself, and when I try and come up with ideas for pre existing characters, I aproach it by thinking "What direction works best for this character?" For Batman, I find that a straight crime drama with occasional elements of sci-fi works best. For Superman, I think that having a very decent, honest man dealing with social issues aswell as fighting super powered criminals is the best way to go. The Flash is best as a sort of action comedy/drama with lots of sci fi elements. You get the idea.
 
forget the whole bad guys crap. we need another 7 part civil war WITH the hulk,and his gladiators, and namor ,with the atlanteans, fighting side by side.
 
MyPokerShirt said:
Mr Fantastic thinks with his head before his heart.
This is completely wrong, and it's been explained so very often here by so many people why exactly this is so completely wrong that I shouldn't even have to explain it again and yet here people are still desperately trying to believe it.

Out of the past few years, Mr. Fantastic has consistently placed the welfare of his family and his friends and his emotions above cold hard facts and raw science. It's always been this way, and instances where he acted otherwise are always explained as him behaving that way -- unlike the way he normally behaves -- due to stress or personal tragedy. That's the way Mr. Fantastic has been characterized, as a brilliant man who has long since learned to value and appreciate the worth of compassion and emotion before hard logic. Of course he stumbles and falls a lot of the time, but at heart he has always been one of the biggest softies in the Marvel U and for him to turn against his friends because of some statistics -- as anyone with even a remote interest in sociology can tell you, using statistics to predict human behavior is just that: theories and predictions, not facts and certainly not proof -- is just plain out of character.

Anyone who thinks otherwise clearly has obviously never had a very solid handle on his character.
 
Exactly. Sometime's he'll get caught up in his work and be a little distant or aloof, but he's not some heartless machine.
 
To hell with great uncle Richards. To hell with him I say! Aunt Petunia would kick his ass any day of the week.
 
Why must you hate? Can't Aunt Petunia just offer the poor, old, law-breaking bastard some good lovin' instead? :(
 
Mcarthyism is the best thing to happen to Reed Richards.
 
TheCorpulent1 said:
Why must you hate? Can't Aunt Petunia just offer the poor, old, law-breaking bastard some good lovin' instead? :(


Hmmm. Fair point. Besides, after what he was through, he could have used some sweet lovin' from a fine lady like Aunt Petunia.
 
BrianWilly said:
This is completely wrong, and it's been explained so very often here by so many people why exactly this is so completely wrong that I shouldn't even have to explain it again and yet here people are still desperately trying to believe it.

Out of the past few years, Mr. Fantastic has consistently placed the welfare of his family and his friends and his emotions above cold hard facts and raw science. It's always been this way, and instances where he acted otherwise are always explained as him behaving that way -- unlike the way he normally behaves -- due to stress or personal tragedy. That's the way Mr. Fantastic has been characterized, as a brilliant man who has long since learned to value and appreciate the worth of compassion and emotion before hard logic. Of course he stumbles and falls a lot of the time, but at heart he has always been one of the biggest softies in the Marvel U and for him to turn against his friends because of some statistics -- as anyone with even a remote interest in sociology can tell you, using statistics to predict human behavior is just that: theories and predictions, not facts and certainly not proof -- is just plain out of character.

Anyone who thinks otherwise clearly has obviously never had a very solid handle on his character.
Exactly. Reed was a guy who was such a softie, he couldn't even let GALACTUS die. Yes, Galactus. The devourer of worlds. Saved his life.

But, CW is a storyline where it has no oomph if family ties don't get severed, if alliances don't end, and if teams don't fall apart, and to hell if it goes for or against anyone's "character". To Marvel, that's not what is important. What they want is for their writers to tell the stories they want however they want, and for said stories to sell 300,000 copies (or somewhere in the 6 figures). The rest to them doesn't matter. Marvel doesn't embrace their past very well, at least not right now.

For the C and lower listers, CW is a shot at the big time. But for the A and B Listers? Death, destruction, character assination, angst, etc.
 
It's times like this that I really wish I worked at Marvel as a writer. I know that sounds weird, but at least I could poke fun at the companies problems from the inside and give the readers a little something better.
 
Man,do you guys even know the ****storm that the comics forum would be if Gambit8370 was still around? :( The dude was cool,but ****in furious.
 

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