So when can Superheroes go back to fighting crime...

[LouFerignoDemon]

Damn! sometimes i hate being a robot-ninja. I guess i'll just have to go become a jew and then get infected by zombies.

Unfortunately, ninja's suck, and don't go to Valhalla based on that.

 

[LouFerignoDemon]

I had this little trip last thursday, thank you very much. Has it ever crossed your mind that maybe there's still some uncharted after-life territory? I mean, it was only a few years ago that science fully mapped excruciating upside down whip orgy hell.

It had occured to me. Then I remembered that you'd have to be on drugs to think that Indonesians have an afterlife.

 

[The Question]

Unfortunately, ninja's suck, and don't go to Valhalla based on that.

Excuse me? The basis of Valhalla entrence is that one has died in the glorious heat of battle. Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but Ninja's do battle quite a bit, and in the event that one dies in battle, it tends to be quite glorious.

It had occured to me. Then I remembered that you'd have to be on drugs to think that Indonesians have an afterlife.

Dude, I've been there. I got the herpies from the Indonesian hookers to prove it.

 

[Vanguard07]

Not always though. My cousin, Ninja-jim (dont ever call him ninjim) died tying his shoe when the knives he had under his shirt impaled him.

 

[LouFerignoDemon]

Excuse me? The basis of Valhalla entrence is that one has died in the glorious heat of battle. Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but Ninja's do battle quite a bit, and in the event that one dies in battle, it tends to be quite glorious.

No, they intend to die quite suckily. And the basis for entrance is a bit more strict than just a glorious death.

 

[The Question]

Not always though. My cousin, Ninja-jim (dont ever call him ninjim) died tying his shoe when the knives he had under his shirt impaled him.

Well, was he an actual, fully fledged ninja, or just a nintern? Because, I hear people do some pretty stupid stuff after they get their ninternships.

 

[roach]

Its like the one thing hes done thats been completely in character.

I wasnt saying it was out of character to disagree with the government....it just came across as hypocritcal of Cap to be working with the government up until that point and then say what he said.

 

[Elijya]

All I'm saying is not all comics should be an escape. Watchmen, V for Vendetta, Sandman, Transmetropolitan, hell, even Hopward the Duck, hardly escapes. Comics are a medium, p[lain and simple. Escapsim is fine, but it shouldn't be the only thing there is.



I suppose. Although, that's a very interesting way of looking at it, since the early superhero comics weren't esapes in the classic sense. Superman's early villains were corrupt buisnessmen, gangsters, abusive husbands, and other people representing very real social problems.

Really. I think it should all be a matter of telling a good story, escapism or no. It doesn't matter if it's full of sex, swearing, and violence, or it's a four color, morally black and white action thriller. As long as it's got the quality to back it up, it's good.

The original Superman stories were the epitome of comicbook escapism: the country's in a depression that's lasted for years, the common man was constantly being taken advantage of by Bankers and Employers, and the original Superman stories had an indestructable man swooping in and beating up those people.

You might as well hand an 8 year old a comic called "Anti-Homework Man" where he beats up his teacher

 

[TheCorpulent1]

I wasnt saying it was out of character to disagree with the government....it just came across as hypocritcal of Cap to be working with the government up until that point and then say what he said.

The prospect of government coersion tends to polarize opinions. Cap chose to work with the government, and he respects the wishes of those who choose not to. He probably had the foresight to see that the government wouldn't just let unregistered superheroes go their own way, and saw what Iron Man is doing now as an attack on personal freedom.

 

[Darthphere]

I wasnt saying it was out of character to disagree with the government....it just came across as hypocritcal of Cap to be working with the government up until that point and then say what he said.

But hes not only speaking for himself, hes speaking for the whole superhero community, c'mon roach, c'mon.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

If Civil War were an action movie, Cap would totally be the "ONE MAN" mentioned in the trailers.

"In a world where America's heroes are forced into government servitude or hunted down like dogs... where America has lost its way... ONE MAN had the courage to stand up and defy the system! ONE MAN found it in him to say, 'We will not go softly into the night!' ONE MAN led the fight... that made the world safe for freedom and the American way and... kittens... and stuff! This summer... ONE MAN leads the charge in... Civil War!"

 

[Darthphere]

If Civil War were an action movie, Cap would totally be the "ONE MAN" mentioned in the trailers.

"In a world where America's heroes are forced into government servitude or hunted down like dogs... where America has lost its way... ONE MAN had the courage to stand up and defy the system! ONE MAN found it in him to say, 'We will not go softly into the night!' ONE MAN led the fight... that made the world safe for freedom and the American way and... kittens... and stuff! This summer... ONE MAN leads the charge in... Civil War!"

I like that you threw in the Independence Day speech. If Bill Pull man ran for President id vote for him.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Me too, Phere. Me too.

 

[Darthphere]

Im going to call Bill Pullman.

 

[The Question]

The original Superman stories were the epitome of comicbook escapism: the country's in a depression that's lasted for years, the common man was constantly being taken advantage of by Bankers and Employers, and the original Superman stories had an indestructable man swooping in and beating up those people.

You might as well hand an 8 year old a comic called "Anti-Homework Man" where he beats up his teacher

Fair point. I just tend to think of escapism as making one forget about the bad thiongs in the world, and the old Superman stories referenced them up front, you know?

 

[Doc Destruction]

Yes, but he beat them quickly and often, hence escaping the reality of the situation.

 

[Darthphere]

Lol!.

 

[The Question]

Yes, but he beat them quickly and often, hence escaping the reality of the situation.

True.

 

[ShadowBoxing]

The other major problem I have is Iron Man vs Captain America.

On one side you have Iron Man, who while aloof and somewhat conservative in nature is not so right wing that he would devestate a friendship over it (Although Cap is known for much harder stances - see Captain and Nomad). Iron Man has been close friends and allies with Captain America since a fateful "Tales of Suspence" comic several decades ago. Iron Man has always been gracious with his fellow heroes and Avengers. Providing technical support to the X-Men, Fantastic Four and Alpha Flight. Providing his home and services to his Avengers, and stealing the hearts of almost every female to cross his path. And while he hides his own problems behind an iron mask of shame, he is not afraid to help others with their own.

The fight reminds me of an issue of Green Lantern/Green Arrow gone horribly, horribly wrong. (It is about as fair a fight as well). Green Lantern and Green Arrow faced social/economic issue after issue after issue. And while they tended to disagree it was a give and take between the two. They learned from eachother rather than bickered. But THIS ONE issue, this ONE massacre of a school (out of incidents of Goblins raiding New York, Alien Invasions, Maximofs going crazy, mutant scares, Ultrons and Visions going nutty, Acts of Vengence and tidal waves crashing over Broadway) causes a public panic and a friendship torn asunder. If this is Iron Man's "moment of clarity" then his super intellect is slower on the uptake than we thought.

Spider-Man, Reed Richards, the X-Men, Avengers and Fantastic Four have lived with the personal knowledge that their pressence and efforts have created villains and caused uneeded destruction in the past. But not once have they ever considered blaming eachother for it.

Green Goblin II, Apocalypse, Mr Sinister, Dr Doom, Ultron, Magneto, Titanium Man and many others would never be threats had the heroes never dawned costumes. So what is the big issue now? Why now. I don't remember people wanting Phineas Horton's head on a platter when his andriod creation battled it out with an invader flooding half of New York City.

Furthermore this bi polar disorder characters have appears elsewhere. After 3 decades of Havok and Lorna being the next highest mutant couple. Bobby immediately starts pursuing Lorna in a childish and inane manner. Behavior not seen from Bobby in years. Totally flushing down the toilet all the maturing he had since the mid eighties.

Ann Nocenti, Chris Claremont, Steve Englehart, Stan Lee, John Byrne and several others could write rings around the Miller/Morre/Morrison wanna bes of today.

 

[Darthphere]

The other major problem I have is Iron Man vs Captain America.

On one side you have Iron Man, who while aloof and somewhat conservative in nature is not so right wing that he would devestate a friendship over it (Although Cap is known for much harder stances - see Captain and Nomad). Iron Man has been close friends and allies with Captain America since a fateful "Tales of Suspence" comic several decades ago. Iron Man has always been gracious with his fellow heroes and Avengers. Providing technical support to the X-Men, Fantastic Four and Alpha Flight. Providing his home and services to his Avengers, and stealing the hearts of almost every female to cross his path. And while he hides his own problems behind an iron mask of shame, he is not afraid to help others with their own.

The fight reminds me of an issue of Green Lantern/Green Arrow gone horribly, horribly wrong. (It is about as fair a fight as well). Green Lantern and Green Arrow faced social/economic issue after issue after issue. And while they tended to disagree it was a give and take between the two. They learned from eachother rather than bickered. But THIS ONE issue, this ONE massacre of a school (out of incidents of Goblins raiding New York, Alien Invasions, Maximofs going crazy, mutant scares, Ultrons and Visions going nutty, Acts of Vengence and tidal waves crashing over Broadway) causes a public panic and a friendship torn asunder. If this is Iron Man's "moment of clarity" then his super intellect is slower on the uptake than we thought.

Spider-Man, Reed Richards, the X-Men, Avengers and Fantastic Four have lived with the personal knowledge that their pressence and efforts have created villains and caused uneeded destruction in the past. But not once have they ever considered blaming eachother for it.

Green Goblin II, Apocalypse, Mr Sinister, Dr Doom, Ultron, Magneto, Titanium Man and many others would never be threats had the heroes never dawned costumes. So what is the big issue now? Why now. I don't remember people wanting Phineas Horton's head on a platter when his andriod creation battled it out with an invader flooding half of New York City.

Furthermore this bi polar disorder characters have appears elsewhere. After 3 decades of Havok and Lorna being the next highest mutant couple. Bobby immediately starts pursuing Lorna in a childish and inane manner. Behavior not seen from Bobby in years. Totally flushing down the toilet all the maturing he had since the mid eighties.

Ann Nocenti, Chris Claremont, Steve Englehart, Stan Lee, John Byrne and several others could write rings around the Miller/Morre/Morrison wanna bes of today.

Yeah, now youre going somewhere different with this with the whole Bobby/Lorna/Havok thing, I dont see how that ties in to the topic.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Dude, Iron Man's not as great a guy as you make him out to be. Remember Armor Wars? He burned some bridges there. The death of Tony Stark? Rhodey, his best friend, wouldn't talk to him for a long time after that. Iron Man was the instigator on betraying the Avengers' ideals and deciding to kill the Supreme Intelligence in the Kree/Skrull War. He's got as long a history of taking extreme stances as Cap does, at the very least.

 

[LouFerignoDemon]

Dude, Iron Man's not as great a guy as you make him out to be. Remember Armor Wars? He burned some bridges there. The death of Tony Stark? Rhodey, his best friend, wouldn't talk to him for a long time after that. Iron Man was the instigator on betraying the Avengers' ideals and deciding to kill the Supreme Intelligence in the Kree/Skrull War. He's got as long a history of taking extreme stances as Cap does, at the very least.

Totally agreed. Hell, Wolverine is on the team only because Tony said so in the first place, and didn't even give Cap a chance to voice his opinion.


Tony Stark is definitely the type who is, "I'm going to do what it is I feel like I should be doing regardless of who or what is against it." He really doesn't care what people think or feel about him for the most part (though he does regret it some later on.) Hell, back in reference to Armor Wars, he first helped Cap (who was a renegade at that time) and then put his ass down physically for trying to stop Tony from destroying the Vault's security. And when the Avengers asked Tony what he was doing, he basically told them that it was none of their business, even though they were offering help. Hard to be a team player when you won't even trust your own team. Tony is definitely not the type to trust other people too much.

And with the thing about Rhodey, I don't even think they were "friends" again until Vol. 3, where a fake War Machine basically MADE him help Tony.

 

[3dman27]

imediatly if not sooner