Space and Astronomy Megathread (MERGED)

[Elijya]

the wikipedia article on the subject has some cool pictures of what Mars, Venus and the Moon would look like terraformed
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terraforming

 

[Ice-man]

heres the only set back that will happen, the only way to settle this is by having a race to get there and terraform first, which wouls most likly be the us nasa.

if all of us moved there, there would deffinitly be wars over who gets what. after all that hard work will wind up blowing it all up.

"There are many potential political issues arising from terraforming a planet, such as who gets to own the extra terrestrial land on the new planet, with contenders being national governments, trans-national organizations like the United Nations, Corporations or individual settlers themselves. Such settlements may become part of national disputes as countries try to make parts of other planets part of their own national territory. Rivalries between nations continue to be a primary motivation for shaping Space projects."

 

[FaT_tONle]

Ofcourse there is going to be war on mars.... just like there were when the New World was discovered.... is this supposed to be a suprise to anyone? Its gonna be like Americans discovering the west and laying stakes to their land.... its inevitable... heck it'll happen on the moon.... they will want independence eventually... water isn't the most difficult thing to obtain in the solar system.... colonies will be completely independent... first the moon... then Mars.... then Jupiter and Saturn... but that will all be many hundred years from now.... but make no mistake it will happen... just a matter of when

 

[DorkyFresh]

Man I am tired of the pessimism...

don't confuse pessimism with realism...history tends to repeat itself. i am a realist. i acknowledge that humans will have the potential to terraform in the future but i also know that we have the power to destroy what we create.

the goal of Humanity should be to spread life NOT sit here on Earth and let it rot...

humanity doesn't have A goal. we don't think of ourselves as an entire race. we don't collectively come together as people of Earth and discuss what we as a race are going to do with our future....therefor....humanity doesn't have 1 underlying goal. we have goals (plural) because we, as humans, seperate ourselves from the rest of humanity. humanity has several "goals" but our individual goals aren't necessarily the rest of humanity's goals.

we are supposed to EXPAND our presence for future generations.... that is how it is meant to be.... resources here on Earth will be gone soon enough....

kinda contradictory don't ya think? expand our presence because resources here on Earth will be gone soon? who do you think is using those resources? it certainly ain't the dolphins or the rats. the reason we're in danger (and need to jump ship) is BECAUSE we've expanded our presence.....too greatly and too rapidly.

terraforming is a nice fantasy, but if (that's a BIG "if") we were a responsible species we would learn to maintain our CURRENT planet before claiming a new one. it's like having a car...ditching your old, battered car (planet) that you wore down for a new car (planet) before learning how to take care of a car in the first place = irresponsible.

 

[FaT_tONle]

don't confuse pessimism with realism...history tends to repeat itself. i am a realist. i acknowledge that humans will have the potential to terraform in the future but i also know that we have the power to destroy what we create.

humanity doesn't have A goal. we don't think of ourselves as an entire race. we don't collectively come together as people of Earth and discuss what we as a race are going to do with our future....therefor....humanity doesn't have 1 underlying goal. we have goals (plural) because we, as humans, seperate ourselves from the rest of humanity. humanity has several "goals" but our individual goals aren't necessarily the rest of humanity's goals.

Nah you didn't get what I was saying.... I didn't mean spread life in general... although I disagree with the notion that we would be playing God if we did.... but thats a matter of another debate.... what I meant was that we need to expand to further increase our population and better the chances of man kind's future survival... the goal of every species is to survive. Anything that further increases those odds should be welcomed... and if you are an existentialist who hates humanity I can't help you so those who fall under that category; I don't wish to debate this subject with you

kinda contradictory don't ya think? expand our presence because resources here on Earth will be gone soon? who do you think is using those resources? it certainly ain't the dolphins or the rats. the reason we're in danger (and need to jump ship) is BECAUSE we've expanded our presence.....too greatly and too rapidly. terraforming is a nice fantasy, but if (that's a BIG "if") we were a responsible species we would learn to maintain our CURRENT planet before claiming a new one. it's like having a car...ditching your old, battered car (planet) that you wore down for a new car (planet) before learning how to take care of a car in the first place = irresponsible.

Well humans don't operate like dolphins or rats... its kind of hard to establish equilibrium between humans and the Earth with all the needs we require... if you are advising we shouldn't use as many resources as we are using then we would still be in the dark ages... with rising population comes more demand to meet the needs. Its costly.... and the planet has taken a toll... it will only get worse... but to advice we shouldn't expand and reproduce... I don't think you or anyone is in line to say we can't expand the population anymore. Are we expanding on Earth... yes... but manned space exploration has been non existent for 30 years.... I don't know how you consider that a rapid expansion into space.... we need to alleviate the pressure on Earth of being our only home... we need to do more in space...

The irresponsibility you refer to has nothing to do with terraforming other planets... yes we have neglected the planet and yes we need to do more to save the planet.... yes I DO AGREE that most resources should be spent trying to clean up the Earth rather than using it to venture out into space.... but the bottom line is that Nasa has been sitting on its own ass for the past 30 years.... we have the technology for Mars.... its less than 50 billion with todays current technology... thats within Nasa's budget... we need to consider the future as well... Earth will be inhospitable eventually so we have to move out eventually.... don't tell me its too early.... we have to start somewhere.... we need to have some goals rather than just sending probes. Its something we still have to do.... not something that will be there when the future comes. That line of thinking gets us into trouble

 

[primemover]

It's not anti-human, in fact the main goal is to make human's lives better, it just involves the end of our species.

Which is anti-human.

Face it, you hate humans and think they are a blight on the planet.

So have you sterilized yourself yet?

 

[Ice-man]

Ofcourse there is going to be war on mars.... just like there were when the New World was discovered.... is this supposed to be a suprise to anyone? Its gonna be like Americans discovering the west and laying stakes to their land.... its inevitable... heck it'll happen on the moon.... they will want independence eventually... water isn't the most difficult thing to obtain in the solar system.... colonies will be completely independent... first the moon... then Mars.... then Jupiter and Saturn... but that will all be many hundred years from now.... but make no mistake it will happen... just a matter of when

very very true, the only way i see this being settled and u may think this is crazy but what we need to do to solve anything is by terraforming more than one planet, and they can decide which country gets what planet or moon, north and south america can have mars, europe can have the moon, asia and who ever else can have venus. or which ever they decide to take idc. not to make it sounc racial you can choose which ever planet youd like to live on. up to you.

face one planet is deffinitly not enough to hold our population, more than one is required, we have about 4 billion people on this earth and in the future that 4 billion will increase to 6-10 billion. over population. the only way to settle overpopulation is inhabiting a much larger planet, or inhabiting several planets.

no more crowed cities or towns, more food to go around, no more wars of terratories. each planets leaders can go and do their own thing. set up their own governmtant and such.

also in the future will have faster ships, it will make interplanatary trading and travel faster and easyer.


all this is possible but would we ever consider doing it?

 

[FaT_tONle]

very very true, the only way i see this being settled and u may think this is crazy but what we need to do to solve anything is by terraforming more than one planet, and they can decide which country gets what planet or moon, north and south america can have mars, europe can have the moon, asia and who ever else can have venus. or which ever they decide to take idc. not to make it sounc racial you can choose which ever planet youd like to live on. up to you.

Oh yeah.... and all these countries will certainly agree... okay Asia... you get this.... Australia gets that.... America gets this.... yeah that should be a mild debate.... no forseeable with that problems whatsoever. I mean since everyone is gonna agree and what not....

face one planet is deffinitly not enough to hold our population, more than one is required, we have about 4 billion people on this earth and in the future that 4 billion will increase to 6-10 billion. over population. the only way to settle overpopulation is inhabiting a much larger planet, or inhabiting several planets.

no more crowed cities or towns, more food to go around, no more wars of terratories. each planets leaders can go and do their own thing. set up their own governmtant and such.

also in the future will have faster ships, it will make interplanatary trading and travel faster and easyer.


all this is possible but would we ever consider doing it?

Why wouldn't we? Makes no sense otherwise... not just terraforming planets... but expansion is inevitable and must be done for the obvious reasons already pointed out

 

[Ice-man]

Oh yeah.... and all these countries will certainly agree... okay Asia... you get this.... Australia gets that.... America gets this.... yeah that should be a mild debate.... no forseeable with that problems whatsoever. I mean since everyone is gonna agree and what not....



Why wouldn't we? Makes no sense otherwise... not just terraforming planets... but expansion is inevitable and must be done for the obvious reasons already pointed out

yea i didnt mean to make it sound like we have to dictate and tell who to live ware, they can decide for themselves on wich place is geologically better for them to addapt.

 

[The Evolutionist]

Which is anti-human.

Face it, you hate humans and think they are a blight on the planet.

So have you sterilized yourself yet?

A) I do think that humans are the biggest problem the planet is facing, but...

B) I do NOT hate humanity. I have offered to show you the essay I wrote, and in it I talk about many different situations which led to human death, and after each one I was sure to mention that they were wrong/regrettable/sad. I value every human life. The sheer fact of the matter is that if we continue on the way we are, we're going to die out anyway, except it will be an extremely painful demise, filled with suffering. THAT is what we're trying to avoid, while also helping the Earth.

C) No, I have not "sterilized myself", because I am only 19, and I don't like making plans that I can't change.

D) Don't tell me to face something about myself, you don't know jack **** about me.

 

[DorkyFresh]

Nah you didn't get what I was saying...

i understand what you're saying. i believe that, eventually, we should expand into space as you're so enthusiastic about...but not until we understand the consequences and problems that can sprout from doing so. i understand that you feel humanity's goal is to explore and spread as far as we can but doing so w/out understanding how overpopulating effects the Earth is what got us in trouble in the first place.

we are now overpopulated and over-polluted because of our "spreading". people are still having 4 or 5 kids when we don't need to anymore. Earth is no longer a place that's welcome for humans to "expand". yes, it'd be nice to goto another planet and start over. yes, if we survive this century then perhaps we might...but my point still remains...


...we shouldn't even be preparing another planet for habitation until we understand how to treat THIS planet. if we go over there ill-prepared it'll be history repeating itself. our technology is only about 100 years old...we still have a LOT to learn about OUR planet before we even think about living on a different one. the fact that there are people who are already wishing that Mars was habitable for us just shows what's wrong with us, as humans. we want INSTANT results...we don't want to wait and understand the whole picture before jumping into it the fire.

 

[FaT_tONle]

Ya but its not like we are gonna start building factories and cars as soon as we get there man... so I don't understand the logic...

 

[primemover]

A) I do think that humans are the biggest problem the planet is facing, but...

B) I do NOT hate humanity. I have offered to show you the essay I wrote, and in it I talk about many different situations which led to human death, and after each one I was sure to mention that they were wrong/regrettable/sad. I value every human life. The sheer fact of the matter is that if we continue on the way we are, we're going to die out anyway, except it will be an extremely painful demise, filled with suffering. THAT is what we're trying to avoid, while also helping the Earth.

C) No, I have not "sterilized myself", because I am only 19, and I don't like making plans that I can't change.

D) Don't tell me to face something about myself, you don't know jack **** about me.

If you favored a view more along the lines of population control, like backing a voluntary movement for people to only have one child(ie. one act of impregnating or birthing), then I would say you are not anti-human. But you backed a more severe idea that is no less plausible than the one I suggested as an example, so I think it's pretty clear, you are either anti-human or just trying to look hip and intellectual with your ultra-radical outlook.

That website is almost too glib to be taken seriously, with funny cartoons and moral arguments tossed around yet acting like they are using Vulcan logic to come to their conclusion.

 

[Kritish]

terraforming planets? why, so we can go over there and screw that planet up also?

we can't even take care of our own planet, what more create a habitable planet?

That’s exactly why we need to find a new home for humanity, if we spread out our population we’ll not only have a lesser chance of humanity being whipped out we’ll have less pollution.

 

[Speedball]

the goal of humanity is to better man kind not spread life. if we cant better ourselves then whats the point of spreading out?

A species' sole purpose is to spread itself out and become the dominant species anyway it can, it's just some do not have the brain power or the capability to expand. What you're saying is nice and all, but that's not the basic nature of a species. Bettering ourselves only came about when modern thought came about. Terraforming would serve our basic instinct to expand and continue to increase our population.

 

[primemover]

A species' sole purpose is to spread itself out and become the dominant species anyway it can, it's just some do not have the brain power or the capability to expand. What you're saying is nice and all, but that's not the basic nature of a species. Bettering ourselves only came about when modern thought came about. Terraforming would serve our basic instinct to expand and continue to increase our population.

Species have no such goal, all organisms are slaves to their genes, and their goal is one thing, to replicate. Anything the genes come up with that helps it relicate better, becomes prevalent, from bigger and sharper teeth, faster legs, flashier colors or even larger testicles.

To do this one does not need to become dominant as in holding domain over nature. Rats are not dominant in that way, but they are highly successful replicants, as are insects and grass and mites . . etc.

You mention brains, but bigger and better brains are usually not an evolutionary advantage, they are extremly costly, most of the time it's better to just have simple instructions that help it's organism eat, fight and mate.

Humans are the only species on the planet that can actually strive consciously to make it's situation better, we are special.

 

[Speedball]

Species have no such goal, all organisms are slaves to their genes, and their goal is one thing, to replicate. Anything the genes come up with that helps it relicate better, becomes prevalent, from bigger and sharper teeth, faster legs, flashier colors or even larger testicles.

To do this one does not need to become dominant as in holding domain over nature. Rats are not dominant in that way, but they are highly successful replicants, as are insects and grass and mites . . etc.

You mention brains, but bigger and better brains are usually not an evolutionary advantage, they are extremly costly, most of the time it's better to just have simple instructions that help it's organism eat, fight and mate.

Humans are the only species on the planet that can actually strive consciously to make it's situation better, we are special.

You kind of did say what I already said. I never said anything about bigger brains though, just brain power.
Neandertals had bigger brains than us, and look at what happened to them.

 

[primemover]

You kind of did say what I already said. I never said anything about bigger brains though, just brain power.
Neandertals had bigger brains than us, and look at what happened to them.

First of all I don't understand 'You kind of did say what I already said', maybe you can point this out, I was refuting your points.

Also, size of the brain and intellect are linked, but it's in relation to the body that carries it. Neandertal brains were bigger because they were bigger animals in general, per pound humans have larger brains.

Neandertal even with it's 'human' sized brain might still have lacked the software to use it to it's full potential, which could be one of the many reasons they were thwarted by our ancestors.

 

[DorkyFresh]

That’s exactly why we need to find a new home for humanity, if we spread out our population we’ll not only have a lesser chance of humanity being whipped out we’ll have less pollution.

so your train of thought is....spread out humanity = spread out pollution?

A species' sole purpose is to spread itself out and become the dominant species anyway it can

lol, who the hell told you THAT nonsense? WE are the only species that has the need to dominate other species. animals and insects don't battle for domination...they battle for balance. everything natural to the Earth wants BALANCE, not dominance. do you see birds and squirrels meeting at round tables, planning on how best to take over humanity? humans have the desire to be the dominant species...not animals or insects. nature was doing great until we started facking w/their equilibrium.

 

[Arkady Rossovich]

the goal of humanity is to better man kind not spread life. if we cant better ourselves then whats the point of spreading out?

Mankind likes to think it has become more civilized as a whole.Personally,i think that if we all can not be at peace with each other..we have no right to leave this planet.

As for terraforming,i think such a concept more than 1,000 yeara away.At least.

 

[DorkyFresh]

Mankind likes to think it has become more civilized as a whole.Personally,i think that if we all can not be at peace with each other..we have no right to leave this planet.

wholeheartedly agreed. we need to think of ourselves as one collective entity as opposed to many separate countries before we start hopping on other planets. i feel that we shouldn't be going to other planets until we're comfortable with calling ourselves "Earthlings" or "humans" rather than Americans, Russians, etc.

 

[primemover]

lol, who the hell told you THAT nonsense? WE are the only species that has the need to dominate other species. animals and insects don't battle for domination...they battle for balance. everything natural to the Earth wants BALANCE, not dominance. do you see birds and squirrels meeting at round tables, planning on how best to take over humanity? humans have the desire to be the dominant species...not animals or insects. nature was doing great until we started facking w/their equilibrium.

Talk about nonsense, animals and insects battling for balance not for domination? . . ridiculous. Every creature on this planet battles for one thing, survival and the ability to reproduce, and it will gladly use any means necessary to assure it's dominance and success in that area, and that includes at the expense of the earth and every other organism out there. There is no foresight, no planning, and no conscious to it, just drive and ultimately consequence.

The only balance imposed is by nature, and it's limited resources, any animal that steps beyond it's means gets thrust back by it, but trust me, they try, that's the name of the game. It's been that way since the dawn of time, when the first replicator rose from the primeval sludge.

Humans are just another animal, and have the same drive but we have progressed to the point that we can manipulate the environment too well and have progressed beyond the means that nature has. Our potentially saving grace is that thing that got us in this sticky mess in the first place, our brains and our ability to manipulate the environment to the level we can. If we can do it still remains to be seen.

 

[DorkyFresh]

Talk about nonsense, animals and insects battling for balance not for domination? . . ridiculous. Every creature on this planet battles for one thing, survival and the ability to reproduce, and it will gladly use any means necessary to assure it's dominance and success in that area, and that includes at the expense of the earth and every other organism out there. There is no foresight, no planning, and no conscious to it, just drive and ultimately consequence.

The only balance imposed is by nature, and it's limited resources, any animal that steps beyond it's means gets thrust back by it, but trust me, they try, that's the name of the game. It's been that way since the dawn of time, when the first replicator rose from the primeval sludge.

Humans are just another animal, and have the same drive but we have progressed to the point that we can manipulate the environment too well and have progressed beyond the means that nature has. Our potentially saving grace is that thing that got us in this sticky mess in the first place, our brains and our ability to manipulate the environment to the level we can. If we can do it still remains to be seen.

you and i are basically saying the same thing. i'm not saying that animals don't feel the need to dominate, but they don't try to rule entire towns or countries the way we do. their domination is for their survival, reproduction, and the promise that their species has a future. since we don't have the NEED to survive or reproduce (we know our species will be around longer than most)...our reason for domination is simply GREED. animals NEED to dominate, humans WANT to dominate. get what i'm sayin'? animals need to dominate because their immediate surroundings require them to be as high on the food chain as they can be...but (most times) those animals don't feel the need to go to a different environment and take over the way we do.

the way animals "dominate" and the way humans "dominate" are 2 entirely different monsters. either way...i still think it's silly to say that a species' sole purpose is to become the dominant species.

 

[Speedball]

so your train of thought is....spread out humanity = spread out pollution?


lol, who the hell told you THAT nonsense? WE are the only species that has the need to dominate other species. animals and insects don't battle for domination...they battle for balance. everything natural to the Earth wants BALANCE, not dominance. do you see birds and squirrels meeting at round tables, planning on how best to take over humanity? humans have the desire to be the dominant species...not animals or insects. nature was doing great until we started facking w/their equilibrium.

Who told you that nonsense???
They don't fight for balance, they fight for food and territory.

 

[DorkyFresh]

They don't fight for balance, they fight for food and territory.

"fight for balance" was a metaphor. they don't actually fight with equilibrium on their mind, but they don't go and kill for total domination (like we do all the time) either...