Comics Spidey in July '07

[Feature]

Of course Peter knows that Norman killed his baby. Mac Gargan told him in MKSM #10, I believe it was.

Gargan: "You killed his son, he killed your daughter."
Peter: "I didn't kill Harry...."
Gargan: "Whatever."

I'm pretty sure Peter had no knowledge of this before hand, so that was his reaction to the big reveal... How is it Gargan knows about that anyway?

Peter should not kill the Kingpin. It's partially his fault May was shot. He's had many more justifiable occasions when he could have killed and didn't. Peter Parker does not kill. The end.

 

[The Joker]

Of course Peter knows that Norman killed his baby. Mac Gargan told him in MKSM #10, I believe it was.

Gargan: "You killed his son, he killed your daughter."
Peter: "I didn't kill Harry...."
Gargan: "Whatever."

Yes shin, I know. I was reminded of it above. Thanks anyway

As Dragon said, it was lame. Peter showed absolutely no emtotion in reaction to learning that his baby was murdered.

Another of the many reasons why Marvel Knights sucked.

 

[shinlyle]

I'm pretty sure Peter had no knowledge of this before hand, so that was his reaction to the big reveal... How is it Gargan knows about that anyway?

Peter should not kill the Kingpin. It's partially his fault May was shot. He's had many more justifiable occasions when he could have killed and didn't. Peter Parker does not kill. The end.

Gargan knows about it because he was told by Green Goblin, when he was hired by Norman to kidnap and bury Aunt May alive should Norman ever be incarcerated.

Also, in PPSM#75, as Norman is "dying", he tells Peter, "take your pyrrich victory, Spider-man! You have no idea what I have taken away from you tonight! HAHAHAHAHA!!"

He all but told Peter about it, and when Peter finally got back to MJ, she said, "Peter, the baby, she's---", and Peter answered, "I know".

Peter's pretty much known since it happened.

 

[shinlyle]

Yes shin, I know. I was reminded of it above. Thanks anyway

As Dragon said, it was lame. Peter showed absolutely no emtotion in reaction to learning that his baby was murdered.

Another of the many reasons why Marvel Knights sucked.

Eh...I liked it, it just wasn't what it could've been. I was along for the ride until issue 12 or so, when JJJ bought his son being Spider-man, and then the anti-climactic GG/Ock fight. It was the best Spidey book at the time it came out, but I still won't buy the hardcover...I think that says it all.

 

[Feature]

Gargan knows about it because he was told by Green Goblin, when he was hired by Norman to kidnap and bury Aunt May alive should Norman ever be incarcerated.

Also, in PPSM#75, as Norman is "dying", he tells Peter, "take your pyrrich victory, Spider-man! You have no idea what I have taken away from you tonight! HAHAHAHAHA!!"

He all but told Peter about it, and when Peter finally got back to MJ, she said, "Peter, the baby, she's---", and Peter answered, "I know".

Peter's pretty much known since it happened.

Thanks for the Gargan info.

I remember Norman saying that to Peter, but Peter was never really told outright what happened, was he?

 

[shinlyle]

Thanks for the Gargan info.

I remember Norman saying that to Peter, but Peter was never really told outright what happened, was he?

He's never told, but it's insinuated...still, I always thought the loss of the baby was handled incredibly poorly. MJ didn't even break stride. It seemed like the next issue had her trying to go back to school and it was like nothing ever happened. Peter never mentioned it again.

Sorry, but, having known couples who've lost babies, that's NOT how they react...especially someone who takes a loss as hard as Peter Parker.

 

[Themanofbat]

He's never told, but it's insinuated...still, I always thought the loss of the baby was handled incredibly poorly. MJ didn't even break stride. It seemed like the next issue had her trying to go back to school and it was like nothing ever happened. Peter never mentioned it again.

Sorry, but, having known couples who've lost babies, that's NOT how they react...especially someone who takes a loss as hard as Peter Parker.

Prior to my birth, my own parents lost a baby girl within 12 hours after she was born... this was back in 1966, and I guess there were complications.

The only reason I know of her existance is because my Grand-Mother told me about her early on in my life, but to this day, and I'll be 40 in November, my parents have acted like it never happened.



So while many couples can talk about it , that may not always be the case...

 

[Feature]

Prior to my birth, my own parents lost a baby girl within 12 hours after she was born... this was back in 1966, and I guess there were complications.

The only reason I know of her existance is because my Grand-Mother told me about her early on in my life, but to this day, and I'll be 40 in November, my parents have acted like it never happened.



So while many couples can talk about it , that may not always be the case...

It could definetly be the case that baby May is too painful a memory for MJ and Pete to routinely bring up, but I think the fact that neither of them ever even thought about her makes it obvious that this has more to do with Marvel's anxiousness to banish all elements of the clone saga into obscurity.

 

[diespinne]

Here's an extensive list of Spidey's kills from Spiderfan.org:

http://www.spiderfan.org/faq/killed.html

 

[Themanofbat]

It could definetly be the case that baby May is too painful a memory for MJ and Pete to routinely bring up, but I think the fact that neither of them ever even thought about her makes it obvious that this has more to do with Marvel's anxiousness to banish all elements of the clone saga into obscurity.

Well, that's pretty obvious from the lack of ANY mention of clones, babies, Ben Reilly, et al in the last 10 years.

Though to Marvel's credit, there have been a few Spidey clone jokes poking around in the last 2 years, and the fact that Ben Reilly is his "alter-ego" at Midtown High in FNSM is a nice touch.

And keeping Spider-Girl kicking around in print, despite her origins being heavily steeped into clone saga lore, is good as well.

 

[venom892]

Spidey shouldn't kill under any circumstance.Also I don't know how he'll even find Kingpin seeing Kingpin renounced his citizenship and is no longer in the country.Also mind you I haven't read Amazing since Sins past put Kingpin hasn't really been intrested in spidey for a long time and has been more fixated on Daredevil.Why all of a sudden he'll go after spidey stopping right in his tracks of pursing DD is beyond me.

 

[Norman Osborn]

In Marvel Knights SM#9 Gargan says Osborn killed Peter's daughter, and Peter doesn't react with any surprise. Or anger. Or anything. Great job Mr. Millar.

forgot about that

 

[Themanofbat]

...Kingpin hasn't really been intrested in spidey for a long time and has been more fixated on Daredevil.Why all of a sudden he'll go after spidey stopping right in his tracks of pursing DD is beyond me.

Because prior to Frank Millar using the Kingpin as DareDevil's main foe, the Kingpin hated Spider-Man more than anything else.

When the Kingpin started his crimminal empire, Spider-Man, not DareDevil, was always there to screw up his plans.

When his wife Vanessa asked him to choose between her and a life of crime, he chose her and had 24 hours to settle his affairs. He dealt with the business side of things for the first 12, and then DEDICATED HIS LAST 12 HOURS OF CRIME to killing Spider-Man, his most hated foe. You can read this brilliant story in Amazing Spider-Man #197, which should be reprinted in Essential Spider-Man vol.9... out next year.

Unfortunately, in the 80's, whenever the Kingpin was in a Spidey book, he treated his former No.1 enemy more as a joke, and saw Murdock as his No.1 guy.

Now I can understand how Matt became the No.1 focus of Wilson, but to treat his former enemy as nothing more than a joke was infuriating to long-time Marvel readers of the 70's & 80's.

So as a 27 year reader of Spider-Man comics, I am glad to see the Kingpin want to do something hurtful to Spider-Man.... because once upon a time True Believers, he really hated him.

 

[kguillou]

Well, come on guys, I think we're all worrying for nothing, we ALL know Spiderman's not gonna kill Kingpin. This is your basic vengeance storyline, the hero goes on a mad rampage and at the last second before he delivers the final blow, the hero has a change of heart and decides not to kill. Its happened millions of times and its gonna happen again. Spidey's not gonna kill anyone, it's just cool to see him in this angry state of mind. Who honestly thinks he's gonna kill kingpin??

 

[USMC]

It could definetly be the case that baby May is too painful a memory for MJ and Pete to routinely bring up, but I think the fact that neither of them ever even thought about her makes it obvious that this has more to do with Marvel's anxiousness to banish all elements of the clone saga into obscurity.

I seem to recall that ASM had an issue right after Baby May's and Ben Reilly's death that either dealt with MJ at a psychiatrist or else it took place many months after everything happened, with an editorial note to the readers saying that Marvel would not be delving deep in the minds of Peter and MJ over their daughter's death... that they would allow their grieving to happen off panel, that it was too "private" or something. Marvel's way of not having to address it directly, and of sweeping it under the rug as quickly as possible.

Lame explanation, but they did have one.

 

[WolfCypher]

Well, come on guys, I think we're all worrying for nothing, we ALL know Spiderman's not gonna kill Kingpin.

Well there were two things we just knew Spidey would never do...kill intentionally and unmask to the public.

Now, the unmasking could be seen as a stupid move to many, but if done right, with the right kind of writing and timing, and in his mood and mindset, I can see Marvel getting away with Spidey killing to avenge Aunt May. His unmasking has resulted in major disadvantages that are great and fun to read, so maybe him killing someone under extreme circumstances could bring in more stories about "self-reflection" and "regret". A nice spin on Spidey. I mean, since so many people think Marvel is going to somehow undo the unmasking somehow anyway, lets try one more thing with him before then.

Yeah, I'm sounding a lot of Joey Q.

 

[Donald Thomas]

Here's an extensive list of Spidey's kills from Spiderfan.org:

http://www.spiderfan.org/faq/killed.html

Aloha,
This is why it's so important for people to do their homework before they make pseudo-authoritative statements.Good job Diespinne
Humans Spider-Man Has Killed
ASM Annual #5 Deliberately killed the Finisher by returning a fired missile back to his tank.
Amazing Spider-Man #121 Accidentally killed Gwen Stacy, snapping her neck while she fell towards her death, thrown by Norman Osborn. It was a lose-lose scenario, so Norman gets the credit for the kill.
Marvel Team-Up #31 Killed Drom the Backwards Man. Spidey and Iron fist take on Drom, and smash his mirror on him. This causes Drom to rapidly reverse-age into nothing, effectively killing him. In the narration, Spidey regrets doing this.
Spider-Man vs. Wolverine #1 Unintentionally killed Charlemagne (Charlie). She committed suicide by attacking Spider-Man during his fight with Wolverine.
Web of Spider-Man #91 Kills Whisper-3, member of the Foreigner's Death Squad. Uses Whisper-3 to block Pulse-2's energy attack. Pulse-2 then aborted the mission and commited suicide. Note that the Death Squad was founded on the assumption that the agents were expendable, and would be replaced, e.g. by Whisper-3 and Pulse-3. Even so, Spidey could have simply dodged the energy blast, and showed no remorse for the death.
Ultimate MTU #1 Spidey plasters webbing all over the face of an bystander who makes an anti-mutant comment. The webbing is clearly sufficient to suffocate them. To be fair, I suspect that this is simply a scripting mistake, or else that Spidey deliberately created not-very-sticky webbing, or some other reason why this one shouldn't really be counted.
Amazing Spider-Man Vol.2 #42 Apparently killed Shade while in the Astral Plane, by tossing him against his own energy-storage cocoon, hoping to cause a loophole.
Amazing Spider-Man Vol.2 #50 Accidentally killed two members of the Latverian Liberation Front. Diverted a missile shot by one of their partners to the only place it wouldn't cause any casualties, a hole in the ceiling. Unbeknownst to him, the two guys were arriving to join the fray, and decided to use the hole to enter. Lose-lose scenario, not his fault.


Sentient Robots Spider-Man Has Killed
Avengers #11 Killed sentient Spider-Man android created by Kang.
Spectacular Spider-Man #68 Killed sentient Mendel Stromm android.
Spectacular Scarlet Spider #4 Spider-Man Ben Reilly killed the Master Programmer, a computer version of Doc Ock's mind.


Sentient Creatures Spider-Man Has KilledAmazing Spider-Man #104 Killed Gog, an incredibly powerful quasi-human alien creature in the Savage Land. Spider-Man could not overcome the scaly-skinned behemoth, who was strong enough to kill a Tyranosaurus Rex. The web-slinger traps the creature in quicksand, an option which sickens him, but to which he can see no alternative.
Of course, Gog has subsequently reappeared in an issue of Astonishing Tales, and as a member of the Sinister Six in Spider-Man #18-23 (or was that an alternate time-line Gog). Anyhow, perhaps he's not dead. Still, Spidey did deliberately attempt to kill him, and believed that he had done so, so maybe this still counts.


Hooky: Graphic Novel Assisted Spindrifter in killing Tordenkakerlakk, a magical construct that Spindrifter was fated do destroy. He deliberately put himself at risk so she could do it. The creature was created with the sole purpose of dying so that Spindrifter could mature.
Amazing Spider-Man V.2 #54 Killed Digger. Knowing that Digger would fall apart if he didn't rest, Spidey relentlessly pursued a fight until his opponent died. Spidey's reasoning was that Digger was already dead in the first place, being a gamma-zombie.


Sentient Beings Spider-Man Has Attempted to KillAmazing Spider-Man #122 Tried to kill Norman Osborn over the murder of Gwen Stacy, came to his senses.
Amazing Spider-Man #348 Tried to kill Carnage's symbiote with a sonic burst. It survived.
Peter Parker: Spider-Man #75 Tried to kill Norman Osborn, over the murder of Ben Reilly and his daughter, Norman survived.

Spidey rules with fans who do their research

 

[WolfCypher]

Spidey has been in many situations it seems where it was either him or the other guy. After reading all that, none of those deaths seem big enough to "indict" him or label him as a killer. So he has gotten away with murder, cause most of his murders go swept underneath the rug afterwards.

Amazing Spider-Man #348 Tried to kill Carnage's symbiote with a sonic burst. It survived.

Huh? Carnage doesn't appear until ASM 361 (full apperance), and Venom wasn't in 348 either, but was in 347.

 

[Donald Thomas]

Spidey has been in many situations it seems where it was either him or the other guy. After reading all that, none of those deaths seem big enough to "indict" him or label him as a killer. So he has gotten away with murder, cause most of his murders go swept underneath the rug afterwards.



Huh? Carnage doesn't appear until ASM 361 (full apperance), and Venom wasn't in 348 either, but was in 347.

Aloha,
Good eyes. I was quoting from SpiderFan.org.You are correct Carnage does not appear in Amazing #348.Someone please contact them and inform them of the mistake.
Spidey holds the Sonic gun in Amazing #380 but Venom actually uses it on Carnage in Spider-Man #36.
Spidey rules with fans who do their homework

 

[venom892]

Because prior to Frank Millar using the Kingpin as DareDevil's main foe, the Kingpin hated Spider-Man more than anything else.

When the Kingpin started his crimminal empire, Spider-Man, not DareDevil, was always there to screw up his plans.

When his wife Vanessa asked him to choose between her and a life of crime, he chose her and had 24 hours to settle his affairs. He dealt with the business side of things for the first 12, and then DEDICATED HIS LAST 12 HOURS OF CRIME to killing Spider-Man, his most hated foe. You can read this brilliant story in Amazing Spider-Man #197, which should be reprinted in Essential Spider-Man vol.9... out next year.

Unfortunately, in the 80's, whenever the Kingpin was in a Spidey book, he treated his former No.1 enemy more as a joke, and saw Murdock as his No.1 guy.

Now I can understand how Matt became the No.1 focus of Wilson, but to treat his former enemy as nothing more than a joke was infuriating to long-time Marvel readers of the 70's & 80's.

So as a 27 year reader of Spider-Man comics, I am glad to see the Kingpin want to do something hurtful to Spider-Man.... because once upon a time True Believers, he really hated him.

Thank you for correcting me.I'm Always willing to learn from Long Time Spider-man Fans.Since I'm not reading the story I'd like to know if there is any reference to what's going in Daredevil in this Back in Black story.Because in Daredevil Vanessa Fisk manipulates Things so that Murdock is no longer believed to Be Daredevil but in return he had to help Wilson out of jail.But Matt did in a way that Fisk gave up his citizenship and is no longer in the United states but somewhere in Europe mourning his wife's death.So if Spidey does find Fisk then he has to go all the way to Europe and Fisk has to be Distraught as he was at the end of the last Daredevil arc.

 

[shinlyle]

Aloha,
Good eyes. I was quoting from SpiderFan.org.You are correct Carnage does not appear in Amazing #348.Someone please contact them and inform them of the mistake.
Spidey holds the Sonic gun in Amazing #380 but Venom actually uses it on Carnage in Spider-Man #36.
Spidey rules with fans who do their homework

I also think that, it's possible, anyways, that they could be referring to the scene at the end of the original Carnage arc in ASM#363, when Spider-man used the sound system at Madison Square Garden to kill the Carnage symbiote....but it came back later, anyway. Either way, #348 had nothing to do with Carnage, if I recall correctly.

 

[Hyper Venom]

Thank you for correcting me.I'm Always willing to learn from Long Time Spider-man Fans.Since I'm not reading the story I'd like to know if there is any reference to what's going in Daredevil in this Back in Black story.Because in Daredevil Vanessa Fisk manipulates Things so that Murdock is no longer believed to Be Daredevil but in return he had to help Wilson out of jail.But Matt did in a way that Fisk gave up his citizenship and is no longer in the United states but somewhere in Europe mourning his wife's death.So if Spidey does find Fisk then he has to go all the way to Europe and Fisk has to be Distraught as he was at the end of the last Daredevil arc.

As I recall, Vanessa's deal was that she would clear Matt's name if he defended Wilson and had him released from prison, and Matt refused. Vanessa had Matt's name cleared anyway, so he's been exonerated of the accusations that he's Daredevil, but Kingpin is still in prison. So if Peter does decide to go find Kingpin, unless he gets out of prison between now and July, he should still be in that cell.

 

[shinlyle]

As I recall, Vanessa's deal was that she would clear Matt's name if he defended Wilson and had him released from prison, and Matt refused. Vanessa had Matt's name cleared anyway, so he's been exonerated of the accusations that he's Daredevil, but Kingpin is still in prison. So if Peter does decide to go find Kingpin, unless he gets out of prison between now and July, he should still be in that cell.

Actually, Vanessa cleared Matt's name anyway, knowing that Matt would clear Wilson's name....because she said Matt was selfish.

Matt ended up clearing Kingpin's name, and Wilson flew to Europe to pay Vanessa his respects and to do the one thing that Matt said he never did in her life....honor her. We see Kingpin in Europe at her grave, mourning her at the end of the issue...which means that Peter probably isn't going to kill the Kingpin, as he lives to see Europe...unless he kills him after Matt frees him.

 

[SpideyZERO]

Possible. As the cover of ASM 542 shows Spidey meets Kingpin in some pretty hall which I sure is not a prison. Maybe Kingpin outsmarts Peter or Peter spares him.

Having Kingpin as the mastermind behind the shooting of Aunt May kinda kills the hype on 'if Peter will kill?' thing. We kinda knows Kingpin will survive and even he will be killed, he belongs to DD

 

[Hyper Venom]

Actually, Vanessa cleared Matt's name anyway, knowing that Matt would clear Wilson's name....because she said Matt was selfish.

Matt ended up clearing Kingpin's name, and Wilson flew to Europe to pay Vanessa his respects and to do the one thing that Matt said he never did in her life....honor her. We see Kingpin in Europe at her grave, mourning her at the end of the issue...which means that Peter probably isn't going to kill the Kingpin, as he lives to see Europe...unless he kills him after Matt frees him.

Ah, thanks for the clarification. I must have missed the latest issue of Daredevil. Well, that would make a very interesting scene indeed if Peter found out Kingpin was free and in Europe, only to find out it's because of Matt Murdock.

Actually, that's been bothering me alot during this whole Civil War/Initiative thing. There's been no interaction between Spider-Man and Daredevil whatsoever. On another note: I was wondering something: In the spirit of the Registration Act, and being as though Spider-Man was once on the pro-registration side, and since Matt Murdock was being publicly accused of being Daredevil, wouldn't Iron Man have forced Peter to reveal his knowledge that Murdock and Daredvil are one and the same? That would have provided a great opportunity for a story, and Marvel let it slip through their fingers.