Picard Star Trek: Picard - General Discussion Thread

[Marvolo]

But why specifically the Romulans? The Federation is a coalition of many species, more than enough of which are that much different from humans compared to Romulans (who are more like us than we’d care to admit).

Why do so many whites hate blacks? Why did whites buy and kidnap thousands of Africans and sell them for profit? Those Africans had committed no wrong against whites. They are the same species yet are treated like a different lesser species and filth by some. Why do humans in general have a natural distrust of things that are different in minor ways? Some of its instinct, some of it is learned behavior, some of its greed, ignorance etc.

And the romulans are a prolific warrior race. Aggressive. And have been extremely hostile more than once. That alone is enough to make many people distrust and dislike them.

 

[Breogan]

"No F8 but what we make."

It is pretty clever labeling them F8, Chabon's doing? If B4 is what he was before, F8 (fate) is what he was destined to made into by humans (the Federation) essentially saw him as "property" without choice , (this was explored in "Measure of Man" episode and again when Data creates a daughter, the Federation tries to claim they "own" her.
While Picard now searches for the remnants of true Data, who sacrificed himself in pursuit of his own humanity, ie freedom of choice.

 

[Dark Raven]

So since that is Peyton List playing a Romulan in disguise, she seems a bit wasted in that role. She was headlining her own series once with Frequency, and she would've been an interesting addition to the main cast, perhaps as one of Picard's crew instead of just a side character. I certainly would've taken more note of the rest of the cast if she had been announced as one of his crew before.

What would've been cool is if they managed to get both Peyton Lists for this series. Maybe they could've played the android/ synthetic twins.

 

[Dr.]

TOS gets (deserved) credit for its optimistic outlook of the future. But IMO, this is often overstated. For instance: while it’s nice that a 1960s series symbolizes peace by having a Russian (Chekov) serving with Americans on the Enterprise, most analysis recognizes the Klingons to be Russian/Soviet surrogates. IOW, drama needs conflict; heroes need villains. Fast forward to TNG and Klingons are friendly(ish) and Worf is a Starfleet officer. But you still need villains. So, enter the Borg or whoever.

Ultimately, it seems a little dubious and superficial to suggest that as long as the Federation (itself) represents optimism, the conflict with “alien species” doesn’t count as a negative assessment of human aggression and tribalism. Star Trek is allegory. It always has been.

 

[Flash525]

Why do so many whites hate blacks? Why did whites buy and kidnap thousands of Africans and sell them for profit? Those Africans had committed no wrong against whites. They are the same species yet are treated like a different lesser species and filth by some. Why do humans in general have a natural distrust of things that are different in minor ways? Some of its instinct, some of it is learned behavior, some of its greed, ignorance etc.

And the romulans are a prolific warrior race. Aggressive. And have been extremely hostile more than once. That alone is enough to make many people distrust and dislike them.

We’re not talking about humans hating the Romulans though, are we? We’re talking about the Federation. Why do the Andorian, Tellarite, Caitian, Saurian, Rigelian, Deltan, etc etc etc despise the Romulans so much?

You say they’re a warrior race, but they aren’t. When have they ever showed warrior traits? The Romulans are all about subterfuge and infiltration, at least from it’s former military perspective, yet a large part of Romulan society consisted of civilians, just like most other species in Trek.

The Klingons were the warrior race, and to some degree, the Cardassians - although they had more in common with the Romulans, they had their own code of honour.

Both them and the Klingons are seemingly accepted, but an entire species doomed by natural causes is despised by a coalition that should aim to bring people together? I’m not buying it.

 

[Gaultheria]

We’re not talking about humans hating the Romulans though, are we? We’re talking about the Federation. Why do the Andorian, Tellarite, Caitian, Saurian, Rigelian, Deltan, etc etc etc despise the Romulans so much?

Going into full conspiracy theory mode for a moment, because it's fun, I'm assuming that Jhat Vhash and Control are just relatively recent participants in an ancient struggle. If Romulus was the base of operations (or at least an important component) of the Bio faction, then the AI faction would use its influence to subtly direct public opinion against Romulans among the more AI-pervaded cultures. And if a supernova (which can't be natural, because G-type stars don't do that) could take out that base of operations, the AIs wouldn't want a rescue fleet to interfere with the plan.

 

[Flash525]

I must’ve missed something here, but where’s all this talk of [Discovery’s] control come into play? Was it referenced, or is this speculation on our part due to the nature of what’s occurring?

 

[DKDetective]

What is it with these sci-fi revivals feeling like really bad fanfiction? Like man if it weren't for the original cast being involved, this would be unwatchable.

Yep, completely agree. This just does not scratch the itch of what both my wife and like about Star Trek, especially the TNG era shows. The science writing is just so bad and deus ex machina, whereas the science and world building of the TNG-era shows was pretty consistent and well thought out most of the time.

Also, this whole Romulans hate synthetics thing just reeks of a retcon, same with the thousands of years old Tal Shiar subsect that has an anti-synthetic mission. It doesn't really accord with Star Trek's timeline of species advancement and it feels more like fantasy than science fiction (secret wars, thousand year histories, etc.) I'm trying to give the show a chance, but I'm sick and tired of how nobody in Hollywood can write convincing, hard science fiction anymore. I hate to say it, but I think a generation of writers' unanimous love of Star Wars' brand of space fantasy, has atrophied Hollywood's ability to write real sci fi.

 

[RockSP]

It is pretty clever labeling them F8,

Them? I think that particular one is F8. The others are F(insert random number here).

 

[Persona]

Don't have much to say about this episode. It is almost entirely set up. But Hanelle's direction continues to be strong and I just love watching Stewart as Picard.

There are some interesting ideas/themes here with the Borg reclamation project and the Maddox mystery, and there is something intriguing about the covert characters introduced or revealed in this one, but this is definitely an episode that can't stand alone in the slightest, whereas the first one at least had a sense of introduction and then starting something. This one is very middle-of-the-first-act stuff, which is fine, but it does take some getting used to in a Star Trek context and I feel like even most serial shows have more pronounced story beats.

 

[Gaultheria]

I must’ve missed something here, but where’s all this talk of [Discovery’s] control come into play? Was it referenced, or is this speculation on our part due to the nature of what’s occurring?

It's speculation, but I think the show is being pretty heavy-handed in dropping a hint. The colour effect on F8's eyes just before he went rogue reminds me of Airiam's eyes when Control corrupted her on Discovery. This could be a generic cue (like dramatic music) to show takeover by hostile AI, but if it's not Control doing that, then it has to be some other agency that operates very much like Control. This show draws heavily from previous works, and Control is available as a plot element if they want to use it.

 

[Breogan]

Them? I think that particular one is F8. The others are F(insert random number here).

As in he F8 is specifically the one visually chosen to to represents them, leading (or programmed into) the revolt on Mars, commandeering the defense satellites, and sacrificing himself. It's shown through F8.
Which cleverly as described seems to play off the previous B4.

 

[Flash525]

Yep, completely agree. This just does not scratch the itch of what both my wife and like about Star Trek, especially the TNG era shows. The science writing is just so bad and deus ex machina, whereas the science and world building of the TNG-era shows was pretty consistent and well thought out most of the time.

I can’t speak for all of past Trek shows, but the science and technobabble on the older shows was just that; babble, big and complex words that we couldn’t relate too because it was a work of fiction. These new, more modem shows (somewhat) try to be a bit more relative, less fictional, more factual to a science-fiction degree.

Truth be told, the style of writing that we all grew up with simply wouldn’t attract, and hold a modern day audience. It’s not just Trek fans that these shows are aimed at, it’s a much wider audience, and I think they’re doing a sound job with it.

EofW stuff, and styles of old just aren’t going to cut it.

It's speculation, but I think the show is being pretty heavy-handed in dropping a hint. The colour effect on F8's eyes just before he went rogue reminds me of Airiam's eyes when Control corrupted her on Discovery. This could be a generic cue (like dramatic music) to show takeover by hostile AI, but if it's not Control doing that, then it has to be some other agency that operates very much like Control. This show draws heavily from previous works, and Control is available as a plot element if they want to use it.

Sure, it would be a way of connecting the two shows, but I really hoped Season 2 of Discovery wrapped up that AI arc. The mere fact that Discovery didn’t even need to jump to the future (cause the AI was defeated before they left) is one inconsistency already, but if they’re going to try and imply that this AI survived, and has been lingering for the last few hundred years, that’s just lazy writing and honestly, quite irritating.

I’m hoping that it’s either a Romulan experiment gone wrong, or a Borg experiment that went sideways itself. We’ve had enough AI story arcs in sci-fI shows of late. Trek can afford to be more original.

 

[Gaultheria]

Trek can afford to be more original.

"The Synths Were Created by Man. They Rebelled. They Evolved. They Look and Feel Human. Some are programmed to think they are Human. There are many copies. And they have a Plan."

 

[Gaultheria]

"The Synths Were Created by Man. They Rebelled. They Evolved. They Look and Feel Human. Some are programmed to think they are Human. There are many copies. And they have a Plan."

I ran with it...

 

[Sithborg]

The premier is up on youtube for free. I really enjoyed it. Now, to decide if I need another streaming service.

 

[carrrnuttt]

Why do so many whites hate blacks? Why did whites buy and kidnap thousands of Africans and sell them for profit? Those Africans had committed no wrong against whites. They are the same species yet are treated like a different lesser species and filth by some. Why do humans in general have a natural distrust of things that are different in minor ways? Some of its instinct, some of it is learned behavior, some of its greed, ignorance etc.

And the romulans are a prolific warrior race. Aggressive. And have been extremely hostile more than once. That alone is enough to make many people distrust and dislike them.

Not to mention that one of the two founding species of the Federation, their first meeting of which is celebrated during First Contact Day, is already inherently biased against Romulans and their attitude as a race, being that they are related but rejected what made Vulcans what they are.

 

[Breogan]

I love that Rios plays football on his ship (yes I'm assuming that's Santiago Cabreras kicking the ball around (should be no surprise to any football fan why it took a Chilean-Brit to finally introduce football onto a starship)) And it's wonderful to see!

...in the grand tradition of Captains with sports aficionado quirks. ....

Water Polo

Baseball

Football

""

 

[TheVileOne]

Why do so many whites hate blacks? Why did whites buy and kidnap thousands of Africans and sell them for profit? Those Africans had committed no wrong against whites. They are the same species yet are treated like a different lesser species and filth by some. Why do humans in general have a natural distrust of things that are different in minor ways? Some of its instinct, some of it is learned behavior, some of its greed, ignorance etc.

And the romulans are a prolific warrior race. Aggressive. And have been extremely hostile more than once. That alone is enough to make many people distrust and dislike them.

Because human beings are tribal.

 

[Flash525]

Because human beings are tribal.

The Federation doesn’t consist solely of human beings though, that’s one of the misconceptions here.

 

[TheVileOne]

The Federation doesn’t consist solely of human beings though, that’s one of the misconceptions here.

Federation aliens are tribal.

 

[biglite351]

We’re not talking about humans hating the Romulans though, are we? We’re talking about the Federation. Why do the Andorian, Tellarite, Caitian, Saurian, Rigelian, Deltan, etc etc etc despise the Romulans so much?

Because the Romulans deserve the hate... just like the Dutch!

- Nigel Powers

 

[Marvolo]

The Federation doesn’t consist solely of human beings though, that’s one of the misconceptions here.

But it does consist of aliens that evolved. And a component of evolution is competition in an ecosystem. That results in tribalism. Yeah, some of the aliens in the Federation might have evolved to a point where tribalism is entirely eradicated, but they would likely be the exception and not the standard.

There is also psychology, philosophy, biology etc that could effect and encourage tribalism and racism.

 

[Monsieur Xavier]

Quick question.
I read that the show is in the Prime Universe but the Kelvin time line isn't ignored because Romulus is also destroyed. Does one can assume that in the Prime U, a supernova destroyed Romulus but there was no Spoke to try save them and no angry Nero ? Correct ?

 

[Flash525]

But it does consist of aliens that evolved. And a component of evolution is competition in an ecosystem. That results in tribalism. Yeah, some of the aliens in the Federation might have evolved to a point where tribalism is entirely eradicated, but they would likely be the exception and not the standard.

There is also psychology, philosophy, biology etc that could effect and encourage tribalism and racism.

But what does any of this have to do with singling out the Romulans?

Quick question.
I read that the show is in the Prime Universe but the Kelvin time line isn't ignored because Romulus is also destroyed. Does one can assume that in the Prime U, a supernova destroyed Romulus but there was no Spoke to try save them and no angry Nero ? Correct ?

Spock and Nero left the prime universe following the destruction of Romulus, and ended up in the Kelvin universe. The events that led to the destruction of Romulus are the same.