Star Wars

[Lord]

Was this directed at me?

No, it was for Celtic Predator

 

[Ponyboy]

All of this is ace.

I do like lightsaber battles. The problem with the lightsaber battles in the prequel trilogy is that they don't have any substance or depth in favor of just style and flash. They were flawlessly choreographed that lacked any sense of emotion.

For example take my favorite lightsaber battle from Return of the Jedi. In Return of the Jedi, after Vader angers Luke by threatening to turn Leia to the Dark Side, Luke snaps and starts wailing on him with no sense of grace or skill, fueled by his rage. He lost all sense of composure and just pounds him into submission. What happens in The Phantom Menace after Obi-Wan witnesses Darth Maul kill Qui-Gonn? He goes backed to highly choreographed per-ordained fighting.
Or take the Empire Strikes Back where the lack of complex choreography develops a sense of the skill and emotional level both Luke and Darth Vader are at. Since Luke had very little lightsaber training, you got the sense that Luke is a total novice and is completely out of his element in going up against Vader. Meanwhile, with Darth Vader you get the feeling that he can just annihilate Luke at any moment and is just toying with him. What happens in Attack of the Clones when Anakin and Obi-Wan go up against Count Dooku, someone who is far more advanced than they are? More highly choreographed per-ordained fighting.

You see in the Original Trilogy, while the lightsaber battles occurred there was always so much more going on besides just two men clumsily swinging laser swords. Major character developments happen in these scenes and you get lots of emotion like temptation, anger, fear, etc. All of which were lacking in the lightsaber battles of the Prequel Trilogy.

Not only that but the lightsaber was used far too much. In the Original Trilogy, the lightsaber was used rather sparingly. It was used enough to become an important tool in Luke and Vaders' arsenals and be the iconic weapon it is today, but when it was taken out, it meant it was time for business. Meanwhile in the Prequel Trilogy, it is used constantly to the point where the awe and wonder is taken away. It is treated as the most important thing about being a Jedi or Sith to the point where the Force is put to the wayside. The Force is what made the Jedi so great, not the lightsaber. It is also impossible to have any emotional connection during the lightsaber battles in the Prequel Trilogy due to far too much going on (The Phantom Menace and Attack of the Clones) and scenes being cluttered with pointless CGI special effects (Attack of the Clones and Revenge of the Sith).

The over usage of the lightsaber also diminished what made some characters so great. Take Yoda for example. He's a character who has physical limitations due to his size and yet he is above them because of his great wisdom and knowledge of the Force. What made him so great is that you don't expect some little tiny impish creature being a great warrior and Jedi Master. He represented that the Force was far beyond physical attributes. What made him such a great warrior is that he didn't need a lightsaber at all to defeat his opponents. However, him using a lightsaber throws that to the side. Yoda's wise phrases such as "Size matters not" are completely ignored because it's just utterly impractical for Yoda to wield an infant sized lightsaber going up against a man three times his size, with a bigger lightsaber, and bigger reach. Physical altercations go completely against what Yoda represents as a character.

Or take Palpatine for example. In the Original Trilogy, Palpatine didn't look highly at the lightsaber. He viewed it as an ineffective Jedi weapon. He saw himself as so powerful, that he didn't need such a weapon to destroy his foes. And yet for no reason, he has one in the Prequel Trilogy and swings it like a crazy person.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

I do like lightsaber battles. The problem with the lightsaber battles in the prequel trilogy is that they don't have any substance or depth in favor of just style and flash. They were flawlessly choreographed that lacked any sense of emotion.

For example take my favorite lightsaber battle from Return of the Jedi. In Return of the Jedi, after Vader angers Luke by threatening to turn Leia to the Dark Side, Luke snaps and starts wailing on him with no sense of grace or skill, fueled by his rage. He lost all sense of composure and just pounds him into submission. What happens in The Phantom Menace after Obi-Wan witnesses Darth Maul kill Qui-Gonn? He goes backed to highly choreographed per-ordained fighting.

Or take the Empire Strikes Back where the lack of complex choreography develops a sense of the skill and emotional level both Luke and Darth Vader are at. Since Luke had very little lightsaber training, you got the sense that Luke is a total novice and is completely out of his element in going up against Vader. Meanwhile, with Darth Vader you get the feeling that he can just annihilate Luke at any moment and is just toying with him. What happens in Attack of the Clones when Anakin and Obi-Wan go up against Count Dooku, someone who is far more advanced than they are? More highly choreographed per-ordained fighting.

You see in the Original Trilogy, while the lightsaber battles occurred there was always so much more going on besides just two men clumsily swinging laser swords. Major character developments happen in these scenes and you get lots of emotion like temptation, anger, fear, etc. All of which were lacking in the lightsaber battles of the Prequel Trilogy.

I agree with your premise, but I don't think it applies to TPM. My personal favorite is Luke v. Vader I, but TDoF is a close second. There are many great character moments in the Duel of Fates, and unlike the ROTJ fight, it isn't bogged down by some bad choreography.

Watching how Obi-Wan, Qui-Gon and Maul react to the force fields teaches us about them. How Obi-Wan is first to ignite his Saber before its just him and Maul, tells us something about him. Maul's arrogance in allowing Obi-Wan to dangle tells us something.

There isn't much difference between Luke losing his mind on Vader in ROTJ and Obi-Wan doing the same to Maul other then Maul fights back and the fight is visually appealing. I mean I love Vader, but he has no upper body movement and it hurts the duels.

Luke being able to "defeat" Vader at the end of ROTJ by just wailing only works because Vader was already defeated at the end of ESB. He wasn't going to fight his son after that, at least not with any true intent to kill him. A Vader in the mood? Luke's wailing just doesn't work.

On he flip side, Maul isn't going to lie down for Obi-Wan and even uses Obi-Wan's rage against him. It is only once Obi-Wan finds his peace that he is able to win.

Not only that but the lightsaber was used far too much. In the Original Trilogy, the lightsaber was used rather sparingly. It was used enough to become an important tool in Luke and Vaders' arsenals and be the iconic weapon it is today, but when it was taken out, it meant it was time for business. Meanwhile in the Prequel Trilogy, it is used constantly to the point where the awe and wonder is taken away. It is treated as the most important thing about being a Jedi or Sith to the point where the Force is put to the wayside. The Force is what made the Jedi so great, not the lightsaber. It is also impossible to have any emotional connection during the lightsaber battles in the Prequel Trilogy due to far too much going on (The Phantom Menace and Attack of the Clones) and scenes being cluttered with pointless CGI special effects (Attack of the Clones and Revenge of the Sith).

But isn't that kind of unfair? If we are going to set a film during the prime of the Jedi, wouldn't their be a lot of Saber action? Even in ROTJ, when Luke finally become proficient, it was his go to weapon. The Saber itself, used in conjunction with the force.

However I completely agree that the Force was minimized badly. I was waiting for the Jedi equivalent of Wizards and we never really got any.

This is why I am a big fan of the original CW shorts. Jedi using the Force to great effect and with some awesome creativity.

The over usage of the lightsaber also diminished what made some characters so great. Take Yoda for example. He's a character who has physical limitations due to his size and yet he is above them because of his great wisdom and knowledge of the Force. What made him so great is that you don't expect some little tiny impish creature being a great warrior and Jedi Master. He represented that the Force was far beyond physical attributes. What made him such a great warrior is that he didn't need a lightsaber at all to defeat his opponents. However, him using a lightsaber throws that to the side. Yoda's wise phrases such as "Size matters not" are completely ignored because it's just utterly impractical for Yoda to wield an infant sized lightsaber going up against a man three times his size, with a bigger lightsaber, and bigger reach. Physical altercations go completely against what Yoda represents as a character.

Or take Palpatine for example. In the Original Trilogy, Palpatine didn't look highly at the lightsaber. He viewed it as an ineffective Jedi weapon. He saw himself as so powerful, that he didn't need such a weapon to destroy his foes. And yet for no reason, he has one in the Prequel Trilogy and swings it like a crazy person.

I completely agree that Palps having a saber completely contradicts his character.

Disagree on Yoda. There is heavy emphasis on a Lightsaber being a Jedi's weapon. Yoda is "THE" Jedi. Him having and using a Lightsaber feels right.

Of course it shouldn't be a common sight. He should be blowing his opponents away with his mastery of the force, but that was lost in the PT, where Jedi are mainly swordsmen.

They were stupid ideas. First of all in a movie about science fantasy, I don't want to be bogged down by boring speeches taking place in Space Congress. Or wonder why something like a Trade Federation would have an army to begin with or be treated as an independent nation.

They should have gone with the political route, but they should have treated Senator Palpatine more like Chancellor Adolf Hitler and his rise to power should have been more like how totalitarian governments came to power before World War II (which heavily influenced Star Wars).

The Trade Federation was a great idea I thought. Easy way to sparkle a galactic conflict. They are just so poorly realized.

Also I think we agree on the premise. A Palpatine more akin to Hitler still would of produced plenty of Space Congress scenes. They just didn't need to well... suck.

The scenes with the senate remind me of the poker scenes in Casino Royale. They treat the audience like they don't know a thing about politics.

The podrace was utterly and entirely pointless.

Yes, that is what it ended up being, but I don't think it had to be. It a different scenario with a competent Anakin, it could of been the Ben-Hur scene they wanted it to be.

The few good ideas were poorly managed with the vast majority of ideas such as treating Darth Vader as some kind of Force messiah, the plots, the majority of characters, etc. were terrible.

Yep, which is quite sad.

 

[Ponyboy]

Disagree on Yoda. There is heavy emphasis on a Lightsaber being a Jedi's weapon. Yoda is "THE" Jedi. Him having and using a Lightsaber feels right.

Of course it shouldn't be a common sight. He should be blowing his opponents away with his mastery of the force, but that was lost in the PT, where Jedi are mainly swordsmen.

For me it was the way they made Yoda fight with the lightsaber that was ridiculous. The Palpatine/Windu fight was great in the sense that it was very closeup, unlike that very "trained" obi-wan/darth maul fight. There's no reason they can't have made an interesting fight between Yoda and Palpatine without all that silly frog-hopping. To me that stuff detracts from the heart of the battle like with Dooku Vs. Yoda... that was Padawan vs. Master and should been very personal.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

For me it was the way they made Yoda fight with the lightsaber that was ridiculous. The Palpatine/Windu fight was great in the sense that it was very closeup, unlike that very "trained" obi-wan/darth maul fight. There's no reason they can't have made an interesting fight between Yoda and Palpatine without all that silly frog-hopping. To me that stuff detracts from the heart of the battle like with Dooku Vs. Yoda... that was Padawan vs. Master and should been very personal.

Not a fan of Palp/Mace. The movement is clunky and the facial expressions Palp pulls are terribly cheese. Neither actor looks "right" holding a saber to me.

Yoda's movement feels like a necessary evil, but I understand not liking it. What I would have preferred was more things like the pod tossing and using the Force to stop blaster bolts.

 

[Hunter Rider]

Only got 4 eps lefts of season 3.

I loved the arc where Dooku betrays Ventress and she goes back to the Nightsisters, the lightsaber battle where the three posed as Jedi vs Dooku was one of the best in the series IMO, and Savage Oppress is a beast!

I really didn't like the Mortis stuff at all, it didn't feel like Star Wars to me, but rather one of those psychic/cosmic event arcs from X Men.

Things are back on track with ep18 and the stealth mission to the Citadel, as well as the introduction of Tarkin!

Maybe if it was a good poster, I would call it a good poster. It's not a good poster. It's a cheap Photoshopped mess.

My post was not directed at your comment on the poster, it was directed at the comment you made prior when I was posting to Darth.

Cool, I'll tone it down.

Thanks.

 

[Darkness Falls]

gotta love the 3d poster for phantom menace
Darth maul is front and centre, and the biggest person on the poster
a shame he didn't have that much screentime to justify that though

 

[henzINNIT]

Yoda ends up in exile because that is where we find him in Empire, not because it exactly makes sense in the context of prequels.

Hiding until you die on a horrible planet after losing one fight against an evil dictator is totally what a Jedi Knight should do.... lol makes total sense.

 

[Mr. Frizzle]

I've just joined, and the Star Wars debates are certainly some of the most energized I've ever come across. It may seem useless to go into hypotheticals, but as I belong to the camp that finds the prequels completely unnecessary/poorly written, I can't help but satisfy my need to stir things up a bit.

The original Trilogy is obviously legendary. By some miracle, if the Lucas estate were to allow a "remake" of the prequels (Note: originals are Timeless and should NOT EVER be messed with ... Take note of this Mr. Lucas, because you're already pissing people off) what would be the FIRST thing about the script that you fans/non-fans would change? I'm interested to see what kind of an alternate story might exist.

 

[hippie_hunter]

I find myself to be in the Harry S. Plinkett school of thought regarding the Prequel Trilogy. It's not that they're just completely unnecessary and poorly written, but they are complete and utter failures as films.

 

[scatterax]

hmmm, so what new format will be out there by the time they release the 3d blurays?

 

[Mr. Frizzle]

I will (shamefully perhaps) admit that LucasFilm succeeded in being able to pander to my inner child when I first watched the prequels in my teens. It was visually stunning, with audio that reshaped my expectations of movie magic from then on. But as soon as I decided to actually pay attention to the story and it's continuity, I was completely reviled. For that reason I agree with you. It's all flash and no substance.

Lucas could have written something that challenged our own misguided perceptions. If anyone is a fan of the re-imagined BSG series, you'll know that at some points the line between the Protagonistic and Antagonistic camps are skewed. So too could Anakin's motivations have been for turning. We see this in the fact that Palpatine is shown as a benevolent and responsible Political Figure, when in reality he's a devious maniacal and outright evil tyrant... and THAT'S GOOD... that HELPS... but we don't really see that much of a real struggle with Anakin as he turns. He just acts like an entitled brat throughout, and then Evil Daddy dangles the pretty keys that Obi-Wan never let him have, and he turns.

There isn't even any reason to suggest that maybe Obi-Wan could have shared in some of the temptations that Anakin faced, only he would have been wise enough to endure through them, and choose the path he ultimately walked. The prequels offer little or no emotional connection in that sense. It's quite lame.

Just like in TPM, it could have started off in it's lighthearted manner -Anakin was an innocent child after all.
But what the prequels severely needed was a way to frighten the audience, or call their own motivations into question. "Would I have done the same as Anakin under the same circumstances?" "In Obi-Wan's stead, what would I have done as a Father-figure if I had lost my foster-son to the dark side?" ... aside from Obi-Wan overseeing the care of Luke in the desserts of Tatooine, what's to say that he wasn't also losing his mind a bit after the loss of every Jedi, his "son" and closest friends?

*phewph* I respect you forumers :P

 

[hippie_hunter]

hmmm, so what new format will be out there by the time they release the 3d blurays?

Blu-ray will be the last physical home video format. It'll all be digital afterwards.

 

[FCEEVIPER]

EG-5 Jedi Hunter droid

Designed by Dooku for the Clone Wars, so far it's only appeared in a videogame, I wouldn't mind seeing it used in the toon, the Grievous influence is clear I'd say but still a cool design.

Damn that design looks great! I hope they use this droid in this remainding season, because it needs it. The episodes haven't been all that great as the previous seasons. imo

 

[scatterax]

Blu-ray will be the last physical home video format. It'll all be digital afterwards.

Well there's already 3d bluray, and I consider that seperate because you need a new player, and even a tv to watch that on. But you're probably right on downloading being the next big format. probably high def cloud, like ultraviolet. I wonder how long it'll take lucas to get on that?? I'm thinking like 10 years maybe?

 

[THANOSRULES]

I will (shamefully perhaps) admit that LucasFilm succeeded in being able to pander to my inner child when I first watched the prequels in my teens. It was visually stunning, with audio that reshaped my expectations of movie magic from then on. But as soon as I decided to actually pay attention to the story and it's continuity, I was completely reviled. For that reason I agree with you. It's all flash and no substance.

Lucas could have written something that challenged our own misguided perceptions. If anyone is a fan of the re-imagined BSG series, you'll know that at some points the line between the Protagonistic and Antagonistic camps are skewed. So too could Anakin's motivations have been for turning. We see this in the fact that Palpatine is shown as a benevolent and responsible Political Figure, when in reality he's a devious maniacal and outright evil tyrant... and THAT'S GOOD... that HELPS... but we don't really see that much of a real struggle with Anakin as he turns. He just acts like an entitled brat throughout, and then Evil Daddy dangles the pretty keys that Obi-Wan never let him have, and he turns.

There isn't even any reason to suggest that maybe Obi-Wan could have shared in some of the temptations that Anakin faced, only he would have been wise enough to endure through them, and choose the path he ultimately walked. The prequels offer little or no emotional connection in that sense. It's quite lame.

Just like in TPM, it could have started off in it's lighthearted manner -Anakin was an innocent child after all.
But what the prequels severely needed was a way to frighten the audience, or call their own motivations into question. "Would I have done the same as Anakin under the same circumstances?" "In Obi-Wan's stead, what would I have done as a Father-figure if I had lost my foster-son to the dark side?" ... aside from Obi-Wan overseeing the care of Luke in the desserts of Tatooine, what's to say that he wasn't also losing his mind a bit after the loss of every Jedi, his "son" and closest friends?

*phewph* I respect you forumers :P

well, its sorta related but i still think the main flaw of the New movies was that one does not give a hoot about any of the characters. Theres nothing to bond with there like Han , Chewy, 3PO, Luke, Leia. The viewer generally doesnt like them, aside from cool factors with costumes, feats , etc..I think this is basically what you are saying, and I agree.

Tons of stuff adds to the effect in the movies..IE, cheesy psuedo shakesperean dialogue of the characters, over complex timelines and plots, too far reaching plots...and some bad acting and miscasting as well.

The Original trilogy was simple. It didnt really try to be an epic, there was a ton of stuff going on out there that was not shown or attempted to show.

The New movies just tried too hard, honestly what I see the most is the lack of the spielberg feel from the storyboarding.

That being said i like the new movies, i just don't love them. I think some of the performances save the trilogy in ROTS, namely Portman and McGregor.

 

[scatterax]

The new movies have better action, the old movies have better stories. I like the old better, but I like them all.

 

[hippie_hunter]

Well there's already 3d bluray, and I consider that seperate because you need a new player, and even a tv to watch that on. But you're probably right on downloading being the next big format. probably high def cloud, like ultraviolet. I wonder how long it'll take lucas to get on that?? I'm thinking like 10 years maybe?

But 3D blu-ray is really just an extension of previously existing blu-ray technology. It's not a total upgrade like VHS was to DVD or DVD to HD DVD/blu-ray.

 

[bullets]

The new movies have better action, the old movies have better stories. I like the old better, but I like them all.

That's my stance. I think there was a missed opportunity with the prequels but I've just chose to accept that and enjoy them as popcorn flicks. There is however some good ideas in there. I don't consider them a complete disaster.

 

[Marvolo]

My favorite lightsaber fight in the saga is obiwan vs maul. Obiwan lost it and let his anger take over. Plus, with ray parks aerobatics and the speed its the only time in the entire saga we see a Jedi and sith go at it with that much speed and aggressiveness. For me that's how lightsaber fights should be. Fast and aggressive. Jedi and sith are suppossed to be faster and more deadly with a blade than normal humans and that is the only time we witness it.

 

[danoyse]

I love the Obi-Wan/Anakin fight in ROTS. Except for almost all of Anakin's dialogue. "From my point of view the Jedi are evil!"

At least the fight looked cool.

I also love Luke going all ballistic on Vader after he threatened Leia. Whoever he really was, Vader still deserved that smackdown.

The first Yoda fight with Dooku was great too...just because the audience at the midnight show exploded when it happened.

 

[Hunter Rider]

I love this Freeco Snowspeeder, it's a shame Gentle Giant didn't do a model of it. Even a Titanium Ultra Diecast line version would have been good.

Instead all there is, is this.

Damn that design looks great! I hope they use this droid in this remainding season, because it needs it. The episodes haven't been all that great as the previous seasons. imo

I've not seen any of season 4 yet but I read there is a lot of Gungan action in it. I agree on the design, it's like the next evolution of the Commando Droid.

 

[bullets]

My favorite duel is Luke vs Vader in ESB. Anakin and Obi Wan being evenly matched in ROTS is a lot of fun though. The dialogue was awkward at the beginning but I like Ewan's delivery at the end.

 

[8wid]

This would be a fun buy!

 

[Hunter Rider]

^^^^ That is awesome!

I wish Code 3 would do more of the Star Wars vehicles, their deluxe models are expensive but top class.