Stargate SG-1/Atlantis/Universe

[Wyrminarrd]

Personally, my gripe about the episode is just with time travel and how the writers of Stargate use it. It just feels like they don't really think things through sometimes with regards to the fact that you can't change your own past. When Scott sent the kino through the gate at the end it did nothing to change the fact that the people in his timeline died so why should he or anyone care enough to send something back in time? All your doing is creating a new timeline while yours still exists and is as crummy as ever!!!!

In other regards the episode was good and probably the best of the series so far.

 

[Paradox1]

Personally, my gripe about the episode is just with time travel and how the writers of Stargate use it. It just feels like they don't really think things through sometimes with regards to the fact that you can't change your own past. When Scott sent the kino through the gate at the end it did nothing to change the fact that the people in his timeline died so why should he or anyone care enough to send something back in time? All your doing is creating a new timeline while yours still exists and is as crummy as ever!!!!

In other regards the episode was good and probably the best of the series so far.

I think Time travel is a fun concept to play with in sci fi.Your also looking at the time travel from the wrong point of view. You said you can't change your own past which is true if your visualizing time travel as a grandfather paradox where if you go back in time killing your own grandfather how could you be born to time travel.Which clearly Stargate writers are not writing from ,they have consistently written time travel as a multiverse where every choice creates a another universe.So when Scott made the final kino he created another universe where he could change the future by giving them a warning.

 

[wiegeabo]

I think Time travel is a fun concept to play with in sci fi.Your also looking at the time travel from the wrong point of view. You said you can't change your own past which is true if your visualizing time travel as a grandfather paradox where if you go back in time killing your own grandfather how could you be born to time travel.Which clearly Stargate writers are not writing from ,they have consistently written time travel as a multiverse where every choice creates a another universe.So when Scott made the final kino he created another universe where he could change the future by giving them a warning.

Except in the case of 1969 where the time travel was used to create a self-fulfilling prophecy (Hammond sends them back in time so they can have Hammond send them back in time). But, because they weren't changing history, just ensuring it happens, it doesn't necessarily break the Stargate convention.

 

[Baggers]

Tapping confirms her return to SGU:

http://www.gateworld.net/news/2009/11/tapping-confirms-her-return-to-sgu/

 

[Wyrminarrd]

I think Time travel is a fun concept to play with in sci fi.Your also looking at the time travel from the wrong point of view. You said you can't change your own past which is true if your visualizing time travel as a grandfather paradox where if you go back in time killing your own grandfather how could you be born to time travel.Which clearly Stargate writers are not writing from ,they have consistently written time travel as a multiverse where every choice creates a another universe.So when Scott made the final kino he created another universe where he could change the future by giving them a warning.

My point still stands, by sending something back in time he did nothing to change his OWN timeline, it remains as messed up as ever and the only things he managed to do is create an alternative universe.

There is therefore nothing to be gained for this particular Scott by changing the past since he's never going to enjoy the benefits. The only way you can truly benefit personally from backward time travel is if you go yourself, then the new timeline is your own time line from then on and you can travel back to the future you've created.

The Stargate writers really don't seem to understand their own time travel rules, just look at how out of synch "Continuum" was (not going to write any spoilers about the movie though).

 

[Superfreak]

I think Time travel is a fun concept to play with in sci fi.Your also looking at the time travel from the wrong point of view. You said you can't change your own past which is true if your visualizing time travel as a grandfather paradox where if you go back in time killing your own grandfather how could you be born to time travel.Which clearly Stargate writers are not writing from ,they have consistently written time travel as a multiverse where every choice creates a another universe.So when Scott made the final kino he created another universe where he could change the future by giving them a warning.

I agree... but I also feel that the multiverse angle is also a cop out. It allows the writers to do what ever they want, however ridiculous, just so they can erase later.

 

[Sam Fisher]

I agree... but I also feel that the multiverse angle is also a cop out. It allows the writers to do what ever they want, however ridiculous, just so they can erase later.

As ridiculous as ,say, a wormhole that shoots you across the galaxy in 3.5 seconds? This is sci-fi we're talking about here after all.

 

[Paradox1]

My point still stands, by sending something back in time he did nothing to change his OWN timeline, it remains as messed up as ever and the only things he managed to do is create an alternative universe.

There is therefore nothing to be gained for this particular Scott by changing the past since he's never going to enjoy the benefits. The only way you can truly benefit personally from backward time travel is if you go yourself, then the new timeline is your own time line from then on and you can travel back to the future you've created.

The Stargate writers really don't seem to understand their own time travel rules, just look at how out of synch "Continuum" was (not going to write any spoilers about the movie though).

I thought the point of Scott creating the last kino was part of the sacrfifice for the betterment of the crew (cause I'm sure he didn't survive)and himself.He didn't wanna live in a universe that didn't have Chloe in it I thought that was fairly obvious. I'm sure loosing some ot the other people were part of it but I think he mostly did it for Chloe.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

As ridiculous as ,say, a wormhole that shoots you across the galaxy in 3.5 seconds? This is sci-fi we're talking about here after all.

It's always fun to see what entirely arbitrary lines people draw between what's believable and what's not in science fiction, isn't it?

 

[Superfreak]

As ridiculous as ,say, a wormhole that shoots you across the galaxy in 3.5 seconds? This is sci-fi we're talking about here after all.

I'm not talking about suspension of disbelief, if you had read the discussion, you'd see that. There's always someone who brings this up in discussion of sci fi. There is suspension of disbelief, and then there's plot devices. You are talking about one, I'm talking about the other.

what I'm talking about is the cop out, or the Ex Deus Machina that such a concept provides a writer.

mind you, I'm not commenting on SGU (yet), but there were certainly a couple of WTF moments in SG1. Mobius 1 and 2 being examples. The whole concept was cool until the 'it's an different reality, so nothing that happened to SG1 mattered'. They were pathetic excuses for that season's finale, when Reckonning was a much better 2 parter(mainly because it wasn't in a BS tangent universe where nothing matters).

 

[Superfreak]

It's always fun to see what entirely arbitrary lines people draw between what's believable and what's not in science fiction, isn't it?

that goes to you too corp, I'm not talking about suspension of disbelief, what I'm talking about is the use of time travel as a narrative tool used by writers to allow them to do anything they want, and then erase such events by the next episode via explanation of 'it was in another multiverse dimension, not ours' because they were inconvenient or inconsistent with the rest of the series.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Eh, I'm used to it. Parallel universes are a sci fi staple. This was a fairly good use of it, too. Most of the times the episodes are just boring. This one at least took a more ground-level approach to it and used the mystery that created to its advantage.

 

[Superfreak]

Eh, I'm used to it. Parallel universes are a sci fi staple. This was a fairly good use of it, too. Most of the times the episodes are just boring. This one at least took a more ground-level approach to it and used the mystery that created to its advantage.

indeed, I never said the episode was bad. And it's use this time is interesting. However, I'm always weary, especially of the SG crew, in the use of this concept.

And it's not that I don't believe or can't believe in time travel, it's more the narrative implications of time travel that bother me... especially the ease of solution.

 

[wiegeabo]

Do we actually know that these were alternate realities? Different timeline doesn't necessarily mean different universe. By sending the first kino through, they reset the timeline from that point on, changing the present/future. (Rush going through didn't change anything, which is why Scott was still around to send the first kino through.)

The second kino does the same thing, changing the present/future again (presumably, the trip through the wormhole, or having already traveled through time, protects the kinos and Rush's body from any type of grandfather paradox).

 

[GhostPoet]

So, I think this is likely my favorite episode of the season. It's got more sci-fi elements than usual in it and it's not so much about basic survival...well, it IS, but with a sci-fi twist to it. Hard to explain what I mean.

I just like the fact they are off the ship and getting into an issue that SG-1 would have gotten into more.

 

[Baggers]

Shanks, Anderson return to SGU in ‘Subversion’:

http://www.gateworld.net/news/2009/11/shanks-anderson-return-to-sgu-in-subversion/

 

[Wyrminarrd]

Do we actually know that these were alternate realities? Different timeline doesn't necessarily mean different universe. By sending the first kino through, they reset the timeline from that point on, changing the present/future. (Rush going through didn't change anything, which is why Scott was still around to send the first kino through.)

The second kino does the same thing, changing the present/future again (presumably, the trip through the wormhole, or having already traveled through time, protects the kinos and Rush's body from any type of grandfather paradox).

It's been established in the Stargate universe that alternative timelines exists (see Quantum Mirror). As I´ve been saying, the writers just don't seem to know what they want from their time travel and are therefore all over the place with it.

Time travel can be a good story telling device if thought out properly, but sadly Stargate choose to use it in what ever way suited the episode of the week and thus made a mess of it.

 

[wiegeabo]

I'm trying to remember an episode where they time traveled to an alternate timeline. I can think of episodes where they used the quantum mirror to travel to one. And that one episode where teams from other timelines kept popping through the gate (had nothing to do with time travel, though).

The only time travels I can think of always change the main timeline, not create an alternate universe.

 

[Sam Fisher]

edit

 

[carrrnuttt]

Do we actually know that these were alternate realities?

These were alternate realities. For there to have been a 2nd and 3rd kino (besides the one the "present" team has), there had to have been realities for these kinos to have come from.

What people don't get is that BOTH alternate realities and time-line manipulation occurred in the last SGU episode. The timelines where everyone dies still exist. The reason that the main timeline that we're now following was able to see the other alternate realities' consquences, is because the kinos were sent back into a time where the alternate realities were still one reality. The "branching" of these particular realities doesn't occur until after their encounter with the planet, and the kinos were clearly sent back to a time well before this occurrence.

You have to think of time in the Stargate universe as a never-ending, infinitely-branching-off tree. This theory is existent in our real universe as well. Every decision that has multiple outcomes theoretically generates multiple "branches" where each branch is the outcome of one of the many choices.

In "Time," there was only one "branch" to start, but the team's ability to loop a message back into itself, created at least two other "branches" in the time/universe "tree."

 

[wiegeabo]

No, I see it differently. In Stargate, time travel does not equal multiple realities. Those realities exist, but you travel to them through devices like the quantum mirror.

But in episodes like 1969, 2010, the one where they go back for the ZPM (can never remember the name), and Continuum, the time travel effects the main timeline, rewriting history. Yet things from the unaltered future/present (like the note in 2010, or the video recording left in ancient Egypt) can survive the changes because they've already gone through the wormhole or traveled through time. By doing so, they've separated themselves from the effects of any changes (Stargate's way of getting around paradoxes).

 

[Superfreak]

I'm trying to remember an episode where they time traveled to an alternate timeline. I can think of episodes where they used the quantum mirror to travel to one. And that one episode where teams from other timelines kept popping through the gate (had nothing to do with time travel, though).

The only time travels I can think of always change the main timeline, not create an alternate universe.

like I said, Mobius I and II, possibly the worst finale IMO, and had they ended the series with that(which was the intention until the new cast members had joined), I'd have lost all faith in the SG production team.

 

[Superfreak]

No, I see it differently. In Stargate, time travel does not equal multiple realities. Those realities exist, but you travel to them through devices like the quantum mirror.

But in episodes like 1969, 2010, the one where they go back for the ZPM (can never remember the name), and Continuum, the time travel effects the main timeline, rewriting history. Yet things from the unaltered future/present (like the note in 2010, or the video recording left in ancient Egypt) can survive the changes because they've already gone through the wormhole or traveled through time. By doing so, they've separated themselves from the effects of any changes (Stargate's way of getting around paradoxes).

according to SG time travel lore, those are alternate universes, because those universes/realities live on, even though they dropped something off that changes our reality.

 

[SsM]

No, I see it differently. In Stargate, time travel does not equal multiple realities. Those realities exist, but you travel to them through devices like the quantum mirror.

But in episodes like 1969, 2010, the one where they go back for the ZPM (can never remember the name), and Continuum, the time travel effects the main timeline, rewriting history. Yet things from the unaltered future/present (like the note in 2010, or the video recording left in ancient Egypt) can survive the changes because they've already gone through the wormhole or traveled through time. By doing so, they've separated themselves from the effects of any changes (Stargate's way of getting around paradoxes).

Moebius?

 

[Superfreak]

k, me, I thought last week was a cliffhanger... clearly I was wrong. They really have to stop doing these 'back to earth' episodes. They're already getting old.