Superhero Cinematic Civil War - - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 53

[Gothamsknight]

That film is the best representation of Spider-Man. Peter makes real and significant sacrifices in order to do what he thinks is right. It has a classic Stan Lee era feel to it, from all the Bugle stuff and selling pictures that help aid Jameson in slamming the wall-crawler, to all the issues Peter has balancing his two lives. I don't think any other Spider-Man movie has gotten Spider-Man like the Raimi movies did. Homecoming I loved as well, as that put Spider-Man in a larger context of a superhero world, but the personal stakes for Peter and what being Spider-Man costs him were not a big part of it (and the vast majority of Spider-Man lore was built on that foundation).

Yeah Spider-Man wasn't that jokey in the costume (though in SM2, he and Ock do go back and forth quite a bit...particularly in the bank sequence) and he had the organic web shooters. But basically everything else was spot on. The 60s and 70s comics are my favorite Spider-Man comics, and the Raimi films captured that period masterfully. I thought TASM series did a very poor job in both films.

All of this! Raimi nailed the character completely overall. It truly felt like the character and his world ripped from the Lee/ditko/romita comics and brought to film.

I still enjoy Homecoming for what it is, but i think it lacks the responsibility aspect of the character as well as the overall burden of being Spider-Man. that brings the film below raimis first films and I also am personally not a big fan of some of the character choices and motives. such as Tony being his mentor, betty brant a high school student, etc but I've tried to accept that as part of the MCU Spider-Man. Still, the film doesn't touch Raimis first films.

 

[DACrowe]

We heard a lot of these same "People just hate it because FOX!" arguments before Deadpool wormed his way into our hearts to near universal acclaim a couple of years ago. Miller and Reynold's flick embraced a lot of stuff folks were looking for out of the main X-Men series, and fans appreciated their effort.

Yet I tend to see countless posts saying "Fox doesn't deserve credit" and "It's not really part of the X-Men universe." So clearly fans need to rationalize liking it while still being free to write off the overall Fox X-Men franchise as a failure or betrayal of fandom. The irony is many of these same folks liked X2, DOFP, and FC once upon a time, but now claim they're all crap. And Deadpool doesn't count. Neither does Logan, because if they did, it would mean Fox did something right that Disney never would.

Spider-Man and Spider-Man 2 are both CBMs classics to this day, IMO. SM2 is still one of my 5 favorite superhero films, and still the best Spider-Man movie IMO. Easily.

Yessir. I don't know if there has been another superhero movie with as much wonderment and joy, and awe of the power of heroism as Spider-Man 2.

 

[Hammer!]

Rises, Future past, and Spider-Man 2 are the only CBMs I would call “overrated”. On Spider-Man 2, I just can’t get behind the plot contrivances of him losing his powers because he’s not getting laid, and the tentacles talking to Ock. Harry seems like a completely diff character from the first, and not in an organic way. The second act just drags, the Sony cameos are distracting, there are a few racist characters that bother me, some of the gags take waaaay to long to materialize, and I have a hard time buying the MJ romance and the way she left Jameson bothers me because besides the story wanting her to get with Peter, I don’t see anything in the actual film to give good enough reason.

Ock is overrated. He’s sympathetic, but I wish he wasn’t, would have been more refreshing, especially in hindsight. His story would have made much more sense for the lizard. The tentacles taking to him wanting to blow up city is lame, and is pretty much his entire motivation for the majority of the film. Dafoe gave a much better performance. I actually prefer the first Raimi film in nearly every aspect. Still my fav Spidey flick.

 

[Erzengel]

Yet I tend to see countless posts saying "Fox doesn't deserve credit" and "It's not really part of the X-Men universe." So clearly fans need to rationalize liking it while still being free to write off the overall Fox X-Men franchise as a failure or betrayal of fandom. The irony is many of these same folks liked X2, DOFP, and FC once upon a time, but now claim they're all crap. And Deadpool doesn't count. Neither does Logan, because if they did, it would mean Fox did something right that Disney never would.

I've said that Fox doesn't deserve credit but specifically for Logan and Deadpool.

So when posters like to postulate that Fox takes chances and does different things but ignores Jackman and Reynolds had to lobby hard to get these movies made, paycuts had to be taken and a movie's cost had to be slashed during filming, that's why I've stated that I'm not going to pat Fox on the back for those movies when it was made very easy for them.

And I like X-2, DOFP and FC.

 

[Spider-Fan]

Rises, Future past, and Spider-Man 2 are the only CBMs I would call “overrated”. On Spider-Man 2, I just can’t get behind the plot contrivances of him losing his powers because he’s not getting laid, and the tentacles talking to Ock. Harry seems like a completely diff character from the first, and not in an organic way. The second act just drags, the Sony cameos are distracting, there are a few racist characters that bother me, some of the gags take waaaay to long to materialize, and I have a hard time buying the MJ romance and the way she left Jameson bothers me because besides the story wanting her to get with Peter, I don’t see anything in the actual film to give good enough reason.

Ock is overrated. He’s sympathetic, but I wish he wasn’t, would have been more refreshing, especially in hindsight. His story would have made much more sense for the lizard. The tentacles taking to him wanting to blow up city is lame, and is pretty much his entire motivation for the majority of the film. Dafoe gave a much better performance. I actually prefer the first Raimi film in nearly every aspect. Still my fav Spidey flick.

He wasn't losing his powers because he wasn't getting laid. That is a gross over-simplification and inaccurate. He was questioning his desire to continue as Spider-Man because it was costing him in his personal life with MJ as well as Harry, he was losing jobs and was risking losing his apartment, he was failing his classes, and he was doing it all so everyone could just hate him in the end thanks to Jameson. Basically, he couldn't juggle life as Spider-Man and Peter Parker, and that inability to juggle his dual lives was making him unbalanced physically. Stress can do funny things to the body. Ever have a stress headache for example? I get them sometimes.

I disagree on your other comments as well, but this particular claim is the one I wanted to comment on the most.

 

[DACrowe]

I've said that Fox doesn't deserve credit but specifically for Logan and Deadpool.

So when posters like to postulate that Fox takes changes and does different things but ignores Jackman and Reynolds had to lobby hard to get these movies made, paycuts had to be taken and a movie's cost had to be slashed during filming, that's why I've stated that I'm not going to pat Fox on the back for those movies when it was made very easy for them.

And I like X-2, DOFP and FC.

But that is still a rationalization. Yes, Reynolds and Jackman made those movies happen, but Fox still at the end of the day took the risk. Do you think if there had been no Deadpool movies, and Ryan Reynolds pitched an R-rated Deadpool to Kevin Feige where the hero gets pegged by his girlfriend that it would get the green light? Do you think if Robert Downey Jr. asks to do one more Iron Man that is about growing old and dying, and is more a drama, and ends with Tony Stark being dead and buried for good, that Disney would say that's "A-OK by us!"

Fox barely agreed to these, but they did. And fandom's refusal to acknowledge that these type of films wouldn't exist without that to me is a rationalization. "Yeah, they made those, but they don't deserve credit because..."

 

[Erzengel]

But that is still a rationalization. Yes, Reynolds and Jackman made those movies happen, but Fox still at the end of the day took the risk. Do you think if there had been no Deadpool movies, and Ryan Reynolds pitched an R-rated Deadpool to Kevin Feige where the hero gets pegged by his girlfriend that it would get the green light? Do you think if Robert Downey Jr. asks to do one more Iron Man that is about growing old and dying, and is more a drama, and ends with Tony Stark being dead and buried for good, that Disney would say that's "A-OK by us!"

Fox barely agreed to these, but they did. And fandom's refusal to acknowledge that these type of films wouldn't exist without that to me is a rationalization. "Yeah, they made those, but they don't deserve credit because..."

You mean if Iron Man dies at the end of Avengers 4?

Listen, we ain't going to agree with this. If Fox, pushed through with Logan and Deadpool with full budgets, I would have easily said yeah they took chances and risked a lot. Not when it was essentially given to them at the cost of a romantic comedy and when the star of their franchise wants to do one last hurrah. I don't think Fox would have done Logan right after the Last Stand.

 

[Drizzle]

I think the FF seems to be the forgotten child whether purposely or not with the discussion of the X-Men returning home. The FF is in desperate need of a MCU rescue.

I agree. X-Men have at least had some pretty good films from Fox (X2, First Class, DOFP, Logan and the Deadpool movies to name a few), while the Fantastic Four has yet to have a truly good movie. Some elements of the Tim Story movies worked, but they ultimately didn't amount to much. We need Feige's hands all over that one.

 

[BaelaTargaryen]

Snyder again insists that the dead Robin in BvS was Dick Grayson and not Jason Todd. Ugh.

 

[DACrowe]

You mean if Iron Man dies at the end of Avengers 4?

Listen, we ain't going to agree with this. If Fox, pushed through with Logan and Deadpool with full budgets, I would have easily said yeah they took chances and risked a lot. Not when it was essentially given to them at the cost of a romantic comedy and when the star of their franchise wants to do one last hurrah. I don't think Fox would have done Logan right after the Last Stand.

I think giving Logan a smaller budget is one of the many reasons it's so good. The bigger the budget, the more strings that come attached.

In any event yeah, I'll be stunned if Iron Man is dead, dead. Not "he vanished saving everyone but there's no body," but he dies and they have a funeral and put him in the ground, and no dirt starts to rise. (And even then it still wouldn't be the same as getting to make a stark movie about death that is restricted from children)

 

[Flint Marko]

Yet I tend to see countless posts saying "Fox doesn't deserve credit" and "It's not really part of the X-Men universe." So clearly fans need to rationalize liking it while still being free to write off the overall Fox X-Men franchise as a failure or betrayal of fandom. The irony is many of these same folks liked X2, DOFP, and FC once upon a time, but now claim they're all crap. And Deadpool doesn't count. Neither does Logan, because if they did, it would mean Fox did something right that Disney never would.

Logan and Deadpool are the exceptions with Fox, not the norm. That's all we're pointing out and it's fair to note after two decades of movies that have devalued what was once the highest-selling superhero comic of all time.

That's why the "Disney would never make a Logan" argument doesn't hold much weight with me. It implies that we can count on Fox to do something like that again sometime soon when I think we all know we really can't. To further drive this point home, just look at how those next two Fox productions are shaping up.

I'll give you this, if I felt that Fox's best work was truly head and shoulders above what Marvel was producing then I'd see more of your point but I don't feel that way. Logan, First Class, and Deadpool are the only movies out of 16 that I think hold up and even there I'd take a handful of MCU movies and the first two Raimi/Nolan films over each of them.

 

[Spider-Fan]

Logan I think is the best superhero film Fox has made, but DoFP is my favorite X-Men movie. DoFP I think exemplified the themes of X-Men and did a better job showcasing Charles as a man and mentor better than any movie to date. So I think it is a better representation of the X-Men than Logan is, though I think Logan is a better movie.

Will Marvel make a movie like Logan? Probably not. But I think I am burnt out on the Fox X-Men universe overall at this point. I would like to see the X-Men re imagined as something more garish and superhero. We have seen the more grounded Fox-verse now for many movies. I now want to see them take on the Shiar and embrace the ridiculous.

 

[Zarex]

I'm not against any of those things. Some of my favorite superhero movies include lighthearted and "comic book-y" elements like Spider-Man 2, Superman: The Movie and Guardians of the Galaxy, as well as the first Avengers. But what we're describing here are special effects and spectacle. Spectacle is nice. But if it's all just noise, at most it can be pleasantly entertaining before being forgotten. It isn't just the "grit" or darkness that makes movies like Logan or The Dark Knight Trilogy superb and gain attention from even something as elitist as the Oscars, it is the desire to use the genre to tell real stories with meaning. To be about something.

I would suggest that ALL superhero movies are about something. They just take a different journey to get there. One recent flick ended with our heroes surrounded by wacky characters in a ginormous space ark and the other with our protagonist DBL (Dead By Log). But I didn't find Ragnarok's story of Thor rising to king by rejecting the Colonialism of his birthright to be less compelling than Logan's family tragedy in an anti-immigrant environment.

Yet I tend to see countless posts saying "Fox doesn't deserve credit" and "It's not really part of the X-Men universe." So clearly fans need to rationalize liking it while still being free to write off the overall Fox X-Men franchise as a failure or betrayal of fandom. The irony is many of these same folks liked X2, DOFP, and FC once upon a time, but now claim they're all crap. And Deadpool doesn't count. Neither does Logan, because if they did, it would mean Fox did something right that Disney never would.

I would agree there is some degree of EXTREME FANDOM among posters who see every failed FOX project as a window for character right consolidation. I have (ahem) also fallen into this behavior from time to time. Luckily with the Fox buyout there will be none of this going forward and the MCU versions will meet all fan expectations. No pressure!

Yessir. I don't know if there has been another superhero movie with as much wonderment and joy, and awe of the power of heroism as Spider-Man 2.

Spider-Man 2 is great and always will be. I'd love for Raimi to get back into the comic book movie game.

 

[Erzengel]

I think giving Logan a smaller budget is one of the many reasons it's so good. The bigger the budget, the more strings that come attached.

In any event yeah, I'll be stunned if Iron Man is dead, dead. Not "he vanished saving everyone but there's no body," but he dies and they have a funeral and put him in the ground, and no dirt starts to rise. (And even then it still wouldn't be the same as getting to make a stark movie about death that is restricted from children)

We're just seeing this as half empty/half full. The Wolverine came in $30M higher than Logan, but it's not even seen as one of the higher X-Men movies.

 

[The Joker]

Spider-Man and Spider-Man 2 are both CBMs classics to this day, IMO. SM2 is still one of my 5 favorite superhero films, and still the best Spider-Man movie IMO. Easily.

This.

Snyder again insists that the dead Robin in BvS was Dick Grayson and not Jason Todd. Ugh.

Why though. That makes no sense. Grayson is more important to the Batman mythos than Todd.

 

[1627523]

You mean if Iron Man dies at the end of Avengers 4?

Listen, we ain't going to agree with this. If Fox, pushed through with Logan and Deadpool with full budgets, I would have easily said yeah they took chances and risked a lot. Not when it was essentially given to them at the cost of a romantic comedy and when the star of their franchise wants to do one last hurrah. I don't think Fox would have done Logan right after the Last Stand.

why would Logan and deadpool have full budgets they're script or the nature of their characters don't call for it. Your basically scolding FOX for not making the worse decision. if Logan and Deadpool were given 150-200 million budgets it would be like throwing away needless amounts of money. None of their scripts even called for a budget that big. I think saying FOX didn't take a risk is ludicrous IMO. The amount uniqueness both films have would make any executive sweat a river. Do you think FOX looked at these films and said "Yup, an R-rated movie killing off the x-men and wolverine in a dystopian setting is definitely a safe bet, We've got nothing to worry about" or "Deadpool will do gang busters we've got newcomer director who worked on video game cut scenes, and a box-office poison star." I don't really understand how you could look at these movies with a straight face and say weren't risks.

 

[Erzengel]

why would Logan and deadpool have full budgets they're script or the nature of their characters don't call for it. Your basically scolding FOX for not making the worse decision. if Logan and Deadpool were given 150-200 million budgets it would be like throwing away needless amounts of money. None of their scripts even called for a budget that big. I think saying FOX didn't take a risk is ludicrous IMO. The amount uniqueness both films have would make any executive sweat a river. Do you think FOX looked at these films and said "Yup, an R-rated movie killing off the x-men and wolverine in a dystopian setting is definitely a safe bet, We've got nothing to worry about" or "Deadpool will do gang busters we've got newcomer director who worked on video game cut scenes, and a box-office poison star." I don't really understand how you could look at these movies with a straight face and say weren't risks.

I'm not saying that Logan and Deadpool needed full budgets. I'm saying that Jackman and Reynolds made it very easy for Fox to green light their movies, by taking paycuts and in the latter's case, the movie's budget was cut DURING filming. And it would have been more of a risk if yeah they invested more, but since they didn't they weren't AS risky.

 

[1627523]

I'm not saying that Logan and Deadpool needed full budgets. I'm saying that Jackman and Reynolds made it very easy for Fox to green light their movies, by taking paycuts and in the latter's case, the movie's budget was cut DURING filming. And it would have been more of a risk if yeah they invested more, but since they didn't they weren't AS risky.

I disagree on Reynolds since he was box-office poison at the time after green lantern and R.I.P.D. but I agree with your other points.

 

[Spider-Aziz]

Snyder again insists that the dead Robin in BvS was Dick Grayson and not Jason Todd. Ugh.

Spoiler

After that Titans trailer, I'm thinking that show is a prequel to BvS.

 

[Gothamsknight]

Why though. That makes no sense. Grayson is more important to the Batman mythos than Todd.

Snyder hasn't done his homework unsurprisingly.

 

[Deck Rickard]

Why though. That makes no sense. Grayson is more important to the Batman mythos than Todd.

One more "FU" to the fans who just don't get his mature vision, I guess.

 

[Gothamsknight]

Can't Snyder actually stick to the source material for once in his life?

 

[Drizzle]

I think Snyder is trolling. What difference does it make to him? He's never going to be part of a DC film again in anything more than a producer role.

 

[Shinobi Shaw]

Snyder is a troll.

 

[Gothamsknight]

I think Snyder is trolling. What difference does it make to him? He's never going to be part of a DC film again in anything more than a producer role.

Thank god. No offense to Snyder personally, but yeah.