Superman & Lois Superman & Lois Original Discussion Thread

[flickchick85]

Honestly, I'm curious...what issues do Supergirl's fans have with how she was used in previous crossovers?

Screentime =/= positive representation. Let's see, in Invasion, after her initial good showing in the first episode (thank you, Helbing!), she was benched until the last minute because Oliver was "uncomfortable" with the whole "alien" thing and wanted time to adjust, which was literally the dumbest excuse for benching your biggest gun (who crossed realities to help you!) I've ever witnessed. Because apparently Oliver's personal discomfort is more important than the fate of the world. Also, the Arrow creative team has this weird obsession with having her do the "hands on her hips" hero posing literally every chance they get (and "superhero landings!"), because I guess they only know her on superficial terms. It's ridiculous and annoying. Their use of both her and Barry in the Arrow ep was straight-up embarrassing, as they were literally sent on an extremely poorly written token adventure to teach Wild Dog a lesson that not all aliens/metas are bad? WTF. Crisis on Earth-X had her depowered and strapped to a table for most of it, then had her need to be rescued like 3 times. In Elseworlds, she basically did nothing but get imprisoned and, in her own episode, couldn't save the day when she got the Book of Destiny because only her cousin was ~powerful enough~ to read it and fix reality. Funny how that's suddenly a non-issue now with the Book and mortals can now read/write it. Not to mention how she constantly feels like the 3rd wheel in this "trinity" and sent off early because it's really the Barry and Oliver Show. Other than having fun interactions with the other characters, she's been shafted and/or rendered useless by Guggenheim & Co. every time. Supergirl was the first Arrowverse show Guggenheim had zero involvement in, and his lack of investment/interest in her and her world/supporting characters has been blatantly obvious in these crossovers. And this one is no exception, as they took what would undoubtedly be one of the biggest moments of her life (losing her mom and Krypton a SECOND TIME) and treated it like an afterthought. She's done nothing of significance thus far in this one either, just bonded with Kate and acted as extra muscle per usual.

 

[Mani-Man]

Honestly, despite what some insecure fans may feel regarding the matter, I have no problem with Kara being slightly stronger than Superman. But like you said, it's their constant reminder of that fact that has proven annoying at times.

And yeah, Superman is supposed to be very humble and supportive. However, he is also supposed to be a natural leader and someone that inspires other heroes as well. These latter traits have been sorely absent from Tyler's Superman during his involvement with the rest of the Arrowverse (Yes, I know. It's all Marc's fault).

My point is that people want to see a Superman who other heroes look up to as well. It would be like having Steve Rogers/Captain America that no one really looked up to and where he constantly told people that they're better than him. In the last two crossovers (Elseworlds and COIE), Superman comes out looking like a rookie than a veteran of 10 years who can inspire people.

Yeah, i can deal with physical kara being stronger...it makes more sense since she was older when she came to earth while clark came to earth as a baby.

It is the writing on how he comes off more like you said...a rookie.
He feels more like superboy in his first year and not Superman who does this stuff for 10+ years.
I get that this show mainly is there to tell Karas story and have her be the main focus and the hero...but still, we are talking about Superman here...Superman.

The writing of the show makes no sense at all to have clark being constantly putting himself down.

 

[SupermanFan]

I don’t agree that Tyler’s had nothing good to do in this crossover. His scene with Lois when sent Jon off in the rocket and then his interaction & fight with Routh Superman (where he held his own) were great standout moments for him. The issue is that aside from that he’s had very little to do, that’s been the problem. Part 3 been the big one where he had like 2 lines of dialogue. Although I understand that they will be finding it hard to write everyone together. I actually hated how he just looked at Iris when he got wiped out tbh.

I even think Kara has suffered somewhat in this crossover tbh. They don’t seem to be able to get across how important she is meant to be without it feeling incredibly forced. Like someone literally has to point it out in the dialogue. Part 3 her and Batwoman had that little side plot but it was so jarring. They just weren’t with the other heroes for key scenes, it’s like what are they doing just walking around the shop while everyone is monitoring what’s happening to the other Earth’s?

 

[flickchick85]

I actually really liked that moment with Iris, tbh. It wasn’t a “these are our last moments” look, it was a reassuring “have faith in the Paragons; this isn’t the end” kind of nod. I dug it.

Agreed about Kara, but that’s how it always goes with these things, imo.

 

[Karelia]

I actually did like that scene with Iris as well.

Thinking about who the other third Superman could be, could it possibly a grown up Jonathan Kent? Maybe Superman Prime?

 

[LifesEnd]

I have seen speculation like val zod or Calvin ellis( with cress playing him)

 

[kvz5]

Yeah that last scene with Clark and Iris was sublime IMO especially the nod.

 

[Brierrose]

Honestly, I'm curious...what issues do Supergirl's fans have with how she was used in previous crossovers?

Screentime =/= positive representation. Let's see, in Invasion, after her initial good showing in the first episode (thank you, Helbing!), she was benched until the last minute because Oliver was "uncomfortable" with the whole "alien" thing and wanted time to adjust, which was literally the dumbest excuse for benching your biggest gun (who crossed realities to help you!) I've ever witnessed. Because apparently Oliver's personal discomfort is more important than the fate of the world. Also, the Arrow creative team has this weird obsession with having her do the "hands on her hips" hero posing literally every chance they get (and "superhero landings!"), because I guess they only know her on superficial terms. It's ridiculous and annoying. Their use of both her and Barry in the Arrow ep was straight-up embarrassing, as they were literally sent on an extremely poorly written token adventure to teach Wild Dog a lesson that not all aliens/metas are bad? WTF. Crisis on Earth-X had her depowered and strapped to a table for most of it, then had her need to be rescued like 3 times. In Elseworlds, she basically did nothing but get imprisoned and, in her own episode, couldn't save the day when she got the Book of Destiny because only her cousin was ~powerful enough~ to read it and fix reality. Funny how that's suddenly a non-issue now with the Book and mortals can now read/write it. Not to mention how she constantly feels like the 3rd wheel in this "trinity" and sent off early because it's really the Barry and Oliver Show. Other than having fun interactions with the other characters, she's been shafted and/or rendered useless by Guggenheim & Co. every time. Supergirl was the first Arrowverse show Guggenheim had zero involvement in, and his lack of investment/interest in her and her world/supporting characters has been blatantly obvious in these crossovers. And this one is no exception, as they took what would undoubtedly be one of the biggest moments of her life (losing her mom and Krypton a SECOND TIME) and treated it like an afterthought. She's done nothing of significance thus far in this one either, just bonded with Kate and acted as extra muscle per usual.

BINGO @flickchick and I have more to add. With Invasion I've always wondered if the fact that Supergirl was moved to CW at the last minute had something to do with it seeming like she was an afterthought. Crisis of Earth-X was two steps forward for me because at least Melissa got some challenging material when she had to act so much against herself. Elseworlds was a step back, she wasn't even in the first 31 minutes(yes I double checked). I echo what @flickchick said about this one, they kinda sorta did something with her determination to get Earth-38 back. Supergirl's supporting cast has also gotten the shaft in these crossovers. Exactly zero of them were in Invasion. Alex had a decent part in Crisis of Earth-X(another reason why that one was two steps forward). In Elseworlds Tyler's Clark was the main representation from her show but he's not a regular. In this one at least we saw her supporting cast in the Supergirl hour but since then we've gotten Clark, Lois and a little bit of J'onn, why couldn't more of the supporting cast have come aboard the Waverider Brainy or better yet Lena could've been working with Ray on the paragon detector. Presumably since he's a paragon J'onn will be in the final two but I'm already shuddering when imagining what Guggenheim is going to do Martian Manhunter.

 

[SupermanFan]

I actually really liked that moment with Iris, tbh. It wasn’t a “these are our last moments” look, it was a reassuring “have faith in the Paragons; this isn’t the end” kind of nod. I dug it.

That’s a good point actually, I didn’t look at it that way on first watch.

 

[vantheman77]

BINGO @flickchick and I have more to add. With Invasion I've always wondered if the fact that Supergirl was moved to CW at the last minute had something to do with it seeming like she was an afterthought. Crisis of Earth-X was two steps forward for me because at least Melissa got some challenging material when she had to act so much against herself. Elseworlds was a step back, she wasn't even in the first 31 minutes(yes I double checked). I echo what @flickchick said about this one, they kinda sorta did something with her determination to get Earth-38 back. Supergirl's supporting cast has also gotten the shaft in these crossovers. Exactly zero of them were in Invasion. Alex had a decent part in Crisis of Earth-X(another reason why that one was two steps forward). In Elseworlds Tyler's Clark was the main representation from her show but he's not a regular. In this one at least we saw her supporting cast in the Supergirl hour but since then we've gotten Clark, Lois and a little bit of J'onn, why couldn't more of the supporting cast have come aboard the Waverider Brainy or better yet Lena could've been working with Ray on the paragon detector. Presumably since he's a paragon J'onn will be in the final two but I'm already shuddering when imagining what Guggenheim is going to do Martian Manhunter.

A lot wasn't thought through and it's showing.

 

[Dark Raven]

I hope Tyler bulks up for the series, because he was looking almost like a regular dude in Crisis next to Brandon and Tom. In fact, he has been looking smaller lately anyway, especially compared to when he first debuted. His neck certainly seemed thinner. I hope he puts a lot of work in the gym.

Also, I think Crisis pretty much confirmed that they'll reuse the Hoechlin Superman theme for his own series since they used it for his character again to distinguish him from Routh Superman.

 

[Herolee10]

You know, I feel like one sure fire way to really elevate Tyler's Superman in the eyes of many is if they were to bring in Darkseid as the threat for the next big crossover and have Tyler's Superman heavily involved in stopping him and saving the other heroes.

 

[flickchick85]

I'd rather see Darkseid as a season-long Big Bad plot in the main show than see him get the crossover treatment. As I've said in the other threads, the crossovers are for fan service moments and never do any characters or plotlines actual justice.

 

[Herolee10]

I'd rather see Darkseid as a season-long Big Bad plot in the main show than see him get the crossover treatment. As I've said in the other threads, the crossovers are for fan service moments and never do any characters or plotlines actual justice.

But how do you involve Darkseid in all of his wrath and not get the other heroes involved? I'd say that warrants enough threat for every hero to come aboard, especially if Earths 1 and 38 end up merging.

And if not that, then we gotta have him at least give some kind of non-cheesy hope speech to a group of heroes similar to how Oliver did in Crisis on Earth X. If you make his show work and establish his role alongside other heroes, then Tyler's popularity may even grow more than what it was back in his prime (first two Supergirl episodes).

 

[flickchick85]

But how do you involve Darkseid in all of his wrath and not get the other heroes involved?

They did it just fine in the animated series. They did it again rather poorly in Smallville, but still, I've always considered Darkseid more of a Supes villain that can sometimes involve the League, but sometimes not. My dream scenario would be both the Superman & Lois and Supergirl shows working on the same plot, and involving the whole arc where Darkseid tries to make Kara into a Fury and Supes has to go to Apokolips to get her back, and then combining that with a bookend arc which sort of mirrors that, inspired by the animated series arc where Supes becomes Darkseid's new "son" and Kara & Lois then have to bring him back. I think if you combine those arcs and throw in little elements from other Darkseid stories, there's a great season of superhero TV in there somewhere. But of course the CW won't make it.

Still, if they can get permission to use him (the New Gods movie might throw a wrench in that scenario), I think Darkseid holds some of the best material for a season-long arc of any Supes villain, because there are so many elements and harbingers that can lead up to a full-on Darkseid/Apokolips invasion, that wouldn't really get any focus in a 2-hour movie or 4-hour crossover or whatever. You've got him influencing the hearts and minds of the people of Earth, you could have the plotline of Apokolips providing tech to Intergang, they could have episodes where the main threats turn out to be Parademons, Furies, Granny Goodness, Glorious Godfrey, Kalibak, Steppenwolf, etc. There's a lot that Darkseid brings with him you could play with over the course of a season. And hell, you could even bring in a couple of the other heroes to help in the finale of this arc if you wanted, and make it another mini-crossover like they've done with Arrow/Flash and Flash/Supergirl. But if they DID do that, I'd prefer they only bring in Supergirl, Flash, and Martian Manhunter...because I've got zero desire to see the Legends of Tomorrow, or The Canaries, or Batwoman or Black Lightning fighting Darkseid. That's just unnecessarily crowded screentime that could surely be better spent on something else.

The ONE thing I see preventing them from doing this is New Gods. But it would be awesome of they let the show utilize some of those characters in spite of that movie. Orion's one of my underrated faves, and while I love Tom King's Mister Miracle with all my heart, I'm pretty sure his involvement with that film means Orion will probably be an unsympathetic d*** in it, so...I want options in my live-action versions, lol.

 

[Dark Raven]

How about the best of both worlds? Have Darkseid a season-long baddie (who doesn't necessarily debut at the start of one season but from one mid season to another mid season) and builds to a crossover with all the heroes?

That way he's kept as primarily a Superman villain and gets all the development, but then everyone gets to eventually take him on.

 

[flickchick85]

Well that wouldn't be best of both worlds for me, because as I said, I don't have any desire to see Batwoman, the Canaries, or the Legends involved at all. They'd just take up space to me. So my ideal scenario would be more of a mini-crossover, involving Flash, SG and Martian Manhunter. But I'd be fine with it if they decided to go the full crossover route, as long as they treated it like the conclusion to the story they've been telling instead of its own event like usual.

 

[famicommander]

If they do Darkseid I'd like to see a bit of a mix of these two scenes:



I'd have it play so that the speedsters can hit Darkseid, but aren't strong enough to hurt him while the Kryptonians are strong enough to hurt him, but not quite fast enough to catch him. So in the final battle you could have Barry running around like Wally vs Brainaic-Luthor knocking Darkseid off balance, while Clark and/or Kara seizes those moments to land heavy blows like "world of cardboard" Superman.

 

[Dark Raven]

Well that wouldn't be best of both worlds for me, because as I said, I don't have any desire to see Batwoman, the Canaries, or the Legends involved at all. They'd just take up space to me. So my ideal scenario would be more of a mini-crossover, involving Flash, SG and Martian Manhunter. But I'd be fine with it if they decided to go the full crossover route, as long as they treated it like the conclusion to the story they've been telling instead of its own event like usual.

I forgot about those shows because I don't watch them and Canaries hasn't started yet. I was envisioning the crossover as the conclusion and huge climactic battle where Superman can't fight everyone at once so he enlists the help of his friends.

 

[flickchick85]

Yeah I'd be fine with that scenario.

 

[vantheman77]

If Smallville Clark and Lois are alive, I can imagine them living on the Kent Farm in the new world as Clark and Lois White while their Earth-38 counterparts would be living and working in Metropolis like the New 52/ Rebirth comics.

 

[danlav05]

If Smallville Clark and Lois are alive, I can imagine them living on the Kent Farm in the new world as Clark and Lois White while their Earth-38 counterparts would be living and working in Metropolis like the New 52/ Rebirth comics.

i hope they do the subplot of another Lois & Clark living normal lives on Earth incognito like they did in the comics, would be super cool.

 

[vantheman77]

I hope they find a way to fix this in Crisis:

Brandon Routh's Superman Destroys Any Hype for Tyler Hoechlin's Series

 

[Dr.]

I hope they find a way to fix this in Crisis:

The obvious way to raise the profile of Hoechlin’s Superman would be for him to step in for KC Supes as a Paragon. Granted, this makes him look like a second choice - a Plan B. Still, it’s something. But if Luthor is now (somehow) a Paragon and a vital key to saving the Multiverse, I’m not sure how E-38 Supes is supposed to attain/regain relevance - especially in light of the alleged Supes & Lois spinoff.

I wonder if this spinoff was thought of before or after Crisis was written.

 

[vantheman77]

I had the same thought of Earth-38 Superman being the new Paragon of Truth after Lex Luthor. He’d be third choice actually.

I think they developed the Superman and Lois spinoff between during and after.