Superman & Lois Original Discussion Thread

[vantheman77]

Bear in mind that the leaked pilot script is in studio draft or network draft, where the studio or network must see the first draft before approving for series. With Superman and Lois, they approved and it went to series order. Then they will do more drafts before production.

Every film and tv screenplay goes through multiple drafts. When they go into production in March, they'll likely have the final production draft. Also, the leaked pilot script was 61 pages meaning it's 61 minutes. Since a CW episode is 42 minutes, they'll likely cut stuff out for deleted scenes. You have to wonder what they will cut out from the Superman and Lois pilot in post-production.

 

[Boy Scout]

Was able to read the pilot (thanks @SuperRouth!) and honestly...I’m whelmed. I don’t understand why people think it’s especially good. It’s pretty much exactly what you’d expect from a CW Superman series. There’s horrible dialogue, predictable storylines, annoying teenagers (looking at you, Jordan), a love triangle (maybe even more than one, God help me), and an absence of anything resembling subtlety.

But those flaws aren’t absolute. There are bright spots here and there, and despite what I said above, I’d describe it as a decent read with a surprisingly interesting premise. But if that script is at all indicative of what’s to come, I’m expecting a frustrating viewing experience.

 

[SupermanFan]

Was able to read the pilot (thanks @SuperRouth!) and honestly...I’m whelmed. I don’t understand why people think it’s especially good. It’s pretty much exactly what you’d expect from a CW Superman series. There’s horrible dialogue, predictable storylines, annoying teenagers (looking at you, Jordan), a love triangle (maybe even more than one, God help me), and an absence of anything resembling subtlety.

But those flaws aren’t absolute. There are bright spots here and there, and despite what I said above, I’d describe it as a decent read with a surprisingly interesting premise. But if that script is at all indicative of what’s to come, I’m expecting a frustrating viewing experience.

You’re welcome, sorry you didn’t enjoy it.

I’ve read it again tonight and I’m still in love with it.

 

[herolee10]

Maggie Sawyer and Ron Troupe could easily meet the POC/LGBT quota in a natural way when it comes to adding diversity to this show's cast.

I am still not entirely convinced on why they needed to give Clark and Lois twins when one child would have been sufficient (and less time consuming from a story/screen time perspective).

I just hope that the idea isn't to keep the characters in SV for the entire duration of the series since we already have "Smallville" for that.

And based on the ending that I read

Spoiler

it seems like there's a possibility that they could recast the role of Lex for this show since the one we are introduced to is clearly from another Earth.

 

[Boy Scout]

You’re welcome, sorry you didn’t enjoy it.

I’ve read it again tonight and I’m still in love with it.

I didn’t not enjoy it. Like I said: it was a decent read. And I can see myself getting invested in Lois’ and Clark’s respective arcs. But sitting through the teenage nonsense every week is going to be a chore. Jonathan is a nothing character so far and Jordan and Lana’s daughter are really ****ing annoying (particularly the former, but the latter has some memorably stupid dialogue that I have a feeling will be her trademark). I’m also not at all confident that the actors who’ll play them will be anything more than watchable - which isn’t really a compliment.

 

[The Caped Knight]

I have a bad feeling about This!

Why does their have to be a triangle for a married Lois and Clark wtf? And I swear if they make one of Clark's kids gay I will lose my every loving mind. This is Superman the Godfather of Superheroes, he's supposed to be the idealistic hero who is strong and morally honest. He was raised with strong midwestern old fashioned values and he is above the trappings of fallen into error.

I hate that they stripped him of his integrity and dynamic to prop up Supergirl. Which is utter nonsense. Melissa a great actress and she does a substantial job in her role. But the writers have gone out of their way to always prop her up and make Superman look inferior which isn't right.

I hope Tyler is able to bring more of a leadership role to this series much like Stephen & Grant have done.

 

[Boy Scout]

Um...there’s nothing - nothing - about who Superman is or where he comes from that should caution any writer against making one of his children gay. It’s 2020, my guy. We’re past this ****.

 

[herolee10]

The only thing that I'll add to this is that if you're going to introduce any concept/idea/demographic into a story, let it be for narrative reasons first rather than doing it for the sake of doing it. Otherwise, the writers can end up inadvertently doing more harm than good.

And while I have no personal qualms about this topic, you have to admit that it would seem pretty funny when you realize all of our major heroes (that are parents) happen to have children that from the LGBT group.haha

At the end of the day, I just want a good narrative featuring Superman and Lois where I don't feel like I have to fast forward CW-Like angst involving their children. Personally, I would have preferred them only having one child (let alone a much younger one as well).

I also hope that the are some immediate plans to eventually include Brainiac into the mix. The fact that we have yet to see a proper live action version of the character go up against a fully formed Superman is just insane.

And the producers really need to clarify on who remembers what from before and after Crisis because this is will end up being the pink elephant in the room if not properly addressed.

 

[flickchick85]

Was able to read the pilot (thanks @SuperRouth!) and honestly...I’m whelmed. I don’t understand why people think it’s especially good. It’s pretty much exactly what you’d expect from a CW Superman series.

I gotta disagree on that one. It doesn't really conform to what's been established as "The CW Superhero Formula" as we know it - no "Team Superman," no tech geek comic relief character, no will they/won't they main romance. It's close to Black Lightning, but even that show has The Tech Guy as a main character. Which is not to say this show won't establish that in subsequent episodes, but I'm just saying none of those expected CW tropes are present in the pilot. The whole main setup is quite different from any of the other CW superhero outings, too. And frankly, save for a couple lines, I didn't find the dialogue that bad at all. Especially compared to, say, the recent Batwoman pilot. There were some very nice, very Superman moments/lines that could be taken right from a comic, imo. Jordan and that one girl are gonna grate for sure, no argument there. But I don't see the solo teen storylines getting nearly the screentime that Supes and Lois will get. I think Helbing knows people are here for Supes.

Also, @herolee10 , regarding Jordan, I do suspect some sort of twist coming there that might explain his addition. My current theory is

Spoiler

He's also a remnant from another universe, and NOT originally Clark's son. Maybe Zod's, like a pseudo-Chris Kent situation. The yellow heat vision seems like a clue on that, imo.

Also, ha, my dumb ass JUST now realized they named Jordan after Jor-El.

 

[herolee10]

Also, @herolee10 , regarding Jordan, I do suspect some sort of twist coming there that might explain his addition. My current theory is

Spoiler

He's also a remnant from another universe, and NOT originally Clark's son. Maybe Zod's, like a pseudo-Chris Kent situation. The yellow heat vision seems like a clue on that, imo.

Also, ha, my dumb ass JUST now realized they named Jordan after Jor-El.

That would be a great twist. Honestly, I have a hard time picturing the show being able to go on several seasons

Spoiler

without Jordan and Jonathan getting stale and boring unless they add some sort of plot device/twist that separates them from your regular/traditional TV siblings.

Also, how would you end up feeling if

Spoiler

they ended up casting a new actor to portray Captain Luthor? I've heard some speculate that Jon's Lex could end up being permanently killed off at the end of Supergirl's current season thus paving the way for a new (and cheaper) Lex for Tyler's Superman to encounter.

Of course, it would suck if we never got to see his Superman have any proper interactions with Jon's Lex.

I know it's just the pilot but I do hope that whatever threat that they're building up to isn't just a personal threat and that it actually has worldwide ramifications.

By the way, does anyone know when this series is supposed to take place? I mean do we know if it takes place in the present day or will the story take place several years in the future like "Green Arrow and the Canaries"?

 

[flickchick85]

That would be a great twist. Honestly, I have a hard time picturing the show being able to go on several seasons

Spoiler

without Jordan and Jonathan getting stale and boring unless they add some sort of plot device/twist that separates them from your regular/traditional TV siblings.

Also, how would you end up feeling if

Spoiler

they ended up casting a new actor to portray Captain Luthor? I've heard some speculate that Jon's Lex could end up being permanently killed off at the end of Supergirl's current season thus paving the way for a new (and cheaper) Lex for Tyler's Superman to encounter.

Of course, it would suck if we never got to see his Superman have any proper interactions with Jon's Lex.

I know it's just the pilot but I do hope that whatever threat that they're building up to isn't just a personal threat and that it actually has worldwide ramifications.

Spoiler

The other reason I suspect that twist with Jordan is the way they described his memory of the twins being fuzzy in the beginning. And then becoming vivid in the end. LIke a new reality solidifying or something. IDK, that was weird and had to be written there for a reason, imo.

Regarding Luthor, I suspect this pilot was written with his involvement intentionally vague (eg, not making it clear that it's the Lex we already know) to keep their options open. Obviously, deals hadn't been worked out with Cryer yet when this was written, so his involvement was not/is not necessarily a sure thing. And yes, he's a multiple Emmy-winner which makes him generally more expensive than the CW is willing to pay for their regulars (though he's recurring quite often on SG now...yet still not technically a regular, I don't think). So I think there's a strong chance that they will HAVE to recast, for logistical reasons.

How will I feel about that? Well, Jon Cryer is my favorite live-action Lex, straight-up. So of course I'd be bummed to lose him. But as crazy as it sounds, I trust this crew with the characterization of Lex and Supes, as I love their incarnations of both so far, so if they DO have to get a new Lex, I have faith that it'll still be true to the character as they've portrayed him thus far, and as long as the actor they find is solid, I'll still be able to dig their take. But yes, my preference would certainly be to see Cryer vs. Hoechlin, if they can swing it.

 

[misslane38]

I really hope Jordan isn't Zod's son from Pre-Crisis universe. It doesn't sit well with me to suggest the kid with mental health issues is the offspring of a villain, or for the show to even toy with the idea of him breaking bad. It's just a tad too stigmatizing for my taste. It makes me uncomfortable.

 

[SupermanFan]

Just a few related to dine of the thing I’ve read on this page of the thread (I’ve misunderstood what anyone’s trying to say I apologise):

For those worrying about a love triangle between Lois-Clark-Lana I wouldn’t be. When we’re introduced to Lana it’s very clear her & Clark have history & that she probably does envy their family dynamic, her and Lois get a long fine. I didn’t get any sense of Lois thinking Lana is after Clark. Also Lana helps them out in some ways towards the end of the pilot which to me shows she’s been a supportive friend.

This may be a point I’ve misunderstood but Jonathan & Jordan are both clearly into girls here. I don’t see why one of them has to be gay either. I mean if either are then fine but don’t do it for the sake of it to tick some box like we’ve had on other CW shows (coughs* Supergirl). But if they do do it so say Jonathan ends up been gay then please write it properly.

Lastly Kyle Cushing, I think previous reports leapt to the conclusion that he’s a physical abusive drunk. Because here I don’t get that impression. He’s a drunk who I would say is more verbally abusive & a bit of a d*** but trust me Lana isn’t afraid of him or anything like that. I would say it’s more he’s seen some stuff as a firefighter that has messed him up and he drinks to suppress that which is causing issues in his marriage. I have a feeling he will be a redemptive character through the season.

That’s the best I can say without spoilers.

 

[herolee10]

Spoiler

The other reason I suspect that twist with Jordan is the way they described his memory of the twins being fuzzy in the beginning. And then becoming vivid in the end. LIke a new reality solidifying or something. IDK, that was weird and had to be written there for a reason, imo.

Regarding Luthor, I suspect this pilot was written with his involvement intentionally vague (eg, not making it clear that it's the Lex we already know) to keep their options open. Obviously, deals hadn't been worked out with Cryer yet when this was written, so his involvement was not/is not necessarily a sure thing. And yes, he's a multiple Emmy-winner which makes him generally more expensive than the CW is willing to pay for their regulars (though he's recurring quite often on SG now...yet still not technically a regular, I don't think). So I think there's a strong chance that they will HAVE to recast, for logistical reasons.

How will I feel about that? Well, Jon Cryer is my favorite live-action Lex, straight-up. So of course I'd be bummed to lose him. But as crazy as it sounds, I trust this crew with the characterization of Lex and Supes, as I love their incarnations of both so far, so if they DO have to get a new Lex, I have faith that it'll still be true to the character as they've portrayed him thus far, and as long as the actor they find is solid, I'll still be able to dig their take. But yes, my preference would certainly be to see Cryer vs. Hoechlin, if they can swing it.

Well, from the sounds of things

Spoiler

it doesn't even seem like Jon's Lex has any bad history with Tyler's Superman as far as Earth Prime is concerned. Thus, their iconic rivalry seems to have been yet another casualty from the Crisis.

Does Jon's Lex even care about Superman anymore? I haven't kept up with Supergirl post crisis but it doesn't seem like he's interested in the man of steel anymore.

 

[flickchick85]

Well, from the sounds of things

Spoiler

it doesn't even seem like Jon's Lex has any bad history with Tyler's Superman as far as Earth Prime is concerned. Thus, their iconic rivalry seems to have been yet another casualty from the Crisis.

Does Jon's Lex even care about Superman anymore? I haven't kept up with Supergirl post crisis but it doesn't seem like he's interested in the man of steel anymore.

Spoiler

Jon's Lex remembers their prior history, as does Clark. And Lex has mentioned how much he still hates Kryptonians. So the rivalry's presumably still there, just not in the eyes of the rest of the world. But no, right now Lex is only interested in Lex. He's not even really all that concerned with Kara, either. He's the hero of Earth and reveling in that status. So he's playing "good guy" at the moment. But of course he's planning something shady with Leviathan right now, we just don't know what.

 

[Dr.]

I’ll echo @Boy Scout ’s assessment of the script. I thought it was decent enough and nicely introduced the premise of the series. (Whether the premise is viable is an entirely different question. ) And given that there was a fair bit of narrative material to get through, the general structure and pacing was good. But, as noted, it’s a long script for a one-hour show. This means the story will need to be edited down - or expanded to fill a two-parter. Either way, the structure/pacing will get altered.

All that said, I never got the impression that this version of Supes was (as some have claimed) a “breath of fresh air” or a return to a classic/nostalgic sensibility. Indeed, the characterization seemed to be a continuation of the Supergirl continuity (for better or worse ) - except that Supes is now embedded in decidedly non-classic, post-Crisis circumstances.

Finally, a technical/nerdy complaint :

Spoiler

In his aerial battle with The Stranger, Superman is temporarily weakened because the Sun is obscured by cloud cover or some such. This should NOT happen. Whatever the “red/yellow star” technobabble is that powers Supes, it doesn’t depend on direct, line-of-sight contact with the Sun. For instance, both Superman and Supergirl do just fine for the 12 or so hours of daily night. Moreover, this goof wasn’t even needed to introduce peril - since The Stranger had a nugget of kryptonite anyway.

End of complaint.

 

[Boy Scout]

I gotta disagree on that one.

Although it does do a fairly decent job of breaking away from the formula we’ve come to expect (which IS a good thing), it’s still very clearly the CW’s interpretation of a DC hero. The quality, dialogue, plot lines, all of it. Which isn’t to say that it was bad; just not especially impressive.

And frankly, save for a couple lines, I didn't find the dialogue that bad at all.

Jordan and the girl are the worst offenders, but there were bits of unnatural or poorly written dialogue sprinkled throughout. The Stranger had one or two and General Lane at one point became the writer’s mouthpiece for heavy handed delivery of what’ll likely become of the show’s central themes/conflicts.

But I don't see the solo teen storylines getting nearly the screentime that Supes and Lois will get. I think Helbing knows people are here for Supes.

I’m skeptical, but I’ve been wrong before.

Also, ha, my dumb ass JUST now realized they named Jordan after Jor-El.

I didn’t realize that either.

 

[SupermanFan]

I’ll echo @Boy Scout ’s assessment of the script. I thought it was decent enough and nicely introduced the premise of the series. (Whether the premise is viable is an entirely different question. ) And given that there was a fair bit of narrative material to get through, the general structure and pacing was good. But, as noted, it’s a long script for a one-hour show. This means the story will need to be edited down - or expanded to fill a two-parter. Either way, the structure/pacing will get altered.

All that said, I never got the impression that this version of Supes was (as some have claimed) a “breath of fresh air” or a return to a classic/nostalgic sensibility. Indeed, the characterization seemed to be a continuation of the Supergirl continuity (for better or worse ) - except that Supes is now embedded in decidedly non-classic, post-Crisis circumstances.

Finally, a technical/nerdy complaint :

Spoiler

In his aerial battle with The Stranger, Superman is temporarily weakened because the Sun is obscured by cloud cover or some such. This should NOT happen. Whatever the “red/yellow star” technobabble is that powers Supes, it doesn’t depend on direct, line-of-sight contact with the Sun. For instance, both Superman and Supergirl do just fine for the 12 or so hours of daily night. Moreover, this goof wasn’t even needed to introduce peril - since The Stranger had a nugget of kryptonite anyway.

End of complaint.

I do agree with your complaint but I am waiting to see how that’s executed.

Spoiler

For me Superman is like a battery, what he stores should remain in his system & be constantly topped up while under a yellow sun. If he is somehow no longer under a yellow sun then what he has stored should only deplete the longer he remains out of the yellow sun. Unfortunately this is something that many different writers of Superman be it on TV, Film, comics or whatever get wrong.

 

[flickchick85]

Although it does do a fairly decent job of breaking away from the formula we’ve come to expect (which IS a good thing), it’s still very clearly the CW’s interpretation of a DC hero. The quality, dialogue, plot lines, all of it. Which isn’t to say that it was bad; just not especially impressive.

Ok I get your meaning now, even if I still disagree.

 

[SupermanFan]

My excitement level for this show is at an all time high, I really can't wait for filming to happen

 

[Fran-el]

My excitement level for this show is at an all time high, I really can't wait for filming to happen

Me too, last year on February 25, Batwoman's cast was already meeting preparing to shoot on March 4, it seems to me that it will take a little longer since there are no announcements of more castigns or director yet. You think they will release a photo Superman with a new suit (if he has one) when they start filming?

 

[Boy Scout]

Ok I get your meaning now, even if I still disagree.

There is absolutely potential in there, though. And to give credit where it’s due, I found myself surprisingly interested in the premise.

Spoiler

That is, the decision to set the series in Smallville.

Although I think they’ve yet to take advantage of all the things it has to offer (you know what I’m talking about if you’ve read Greg Pak’s New 52 run), there’s still time.

 

[flickchick85]

There is absolutely potential in there, though. And to give credit where it’s due, I found myself surprisingly interested in the premise.

Spoiler

That is, the decision to set the series in Smallville.

Although I don’t think they’ve yet to take advantage of all the things it has to offer (you know what I’m talking about if you’ve read Greg Pak’s New 52 run), there’s still time.

Given the setting/premise they’re going with, I’m guessing they’re striving more for Tomasi’s Rebirth than Pak’s Action, but either one is certainly a good inspiration.

 

[Boy Scout]

Given the setting/premise they’re going with, I’m guessing they’re striving more for Tomasi’s Rebirth than Pak’s Action, but either one is certainly a good inspiration.

Which I also liked a lot, but I’m much more intrigued by the idea of Superman dabbling in horror than

Spoiler

small town bank fraud or whatever.[/SPOILER{

 

[SupermanFan]

Which I also liked a lot, but I’m much more intrigued by the idea of Superman dabbling in horror than

Spoiler

small town bank fraud or whatever.[/SPOILER{

Spoiler

I’m under the impression that that’s what Lois is going be dealing with, Superman seems like he is going to have his hands full with Captain Luthor & making saves across the globe etc.