Superman Secret Origin Questions

[Spike_x1]

Put me down next to Bryne's "Last survivor" thing too. Loved that series. and it's realistic take. The only thing I don't mind from the reboots is the younger, more agile Luthor, not the old fat business man, but it's not like they do anything with it. From the previews, once again, he's a whiney kid, who just happens to live in Smallville too.
I always thought he should be some ultimate human. Not only the biggest genius to ever live, but have all his stats off the charts, just to give him more reason to hate superman. Someone who would give Bruce Wayne a run for his money if it wasn't for his insane determination - so he has a reason to feel cheated by Superman's presense. But no, the Silver Age had kid Luthor loosing his hair in Smallville thanks to science-kryptonite accident, and judging from the previews, we'll have the same crap here.

Post-Crisis Lex actually did develop into quite the physical specimen over time. After selling his soul to Neron, the illness that was wasting away at his cloned body was cured and he gained peak human physical fitness out of the deal. Later on, he was even trained in armed and unarmed combat by Hope and Mercy, his two bodyguards who were both hinted to be something like rogue Amazon warriors. The thing is, though, as soon as Lex wasn't President anymore, writers seemed to completely forget all of the development that he had gone through. I mean, a depowered and kryptonite-poisoned Superman wiped the floor with him in OYL. My eyes almost rolled out of my skull.

And that's not even counting all of the developments over the years to his actual personality that have been thrown to the wayside. God only knows if his (surprisingly beloved) daughter even still exists on New Earth. And Lex's childhood rivalry with Perry White as they grew up in Suicide Slum? It was a far more poignant origin story to see both of them grow up; one of them running the last free paper in the city, while the other gains control of the rest of Metropolis. Before any retcon-happy writers came along to screw with that origin for Lex and Perry, there was so much story potential, and it actually made White into a character people cared about, rather than just the guy in the background who never grows beyond just razzing Jimmy on his photos. Using that foundation, Lex used every opportunity he could to eff-up Perry's life (sleeping with Perry's wife and then letting him raise Lex's kid before rubbing Perry's nose in the fact that the kid was killed under the Whites' parenting, buying the Planet and then selling it back to Perry for a dollar, etc). There were just so many times where writers used the shared history between the two characters to create great moments and situations for them, which just don't work with a "Lex grew up with Clark" version of the origin story.

I honestly want to ask Didio and Johns why they felt that they had to sacrifice that? The Joker doesn't need to have grown up with Bruce Wayne. Why does Lex need to have grown up with Clark? It doesn't add anything to his character, except for whining while Clark tries to be nice to him, and really, who cares about a backstory like that?

John's is so awesome on other titles, how can his Superman suck so much?

And they did mess with Batman's origin: they caught Joe Chill, no they didn't, he's loooking for the murderer, now they caught him again...

I was about to mention that. Personally, I prefer that the Waynes' killer was never caught. It adds some delicious irony to think that the World's Greatest Detective can't find some two-bit hood.

 

[Young Superman]

F*** that. Joe Chill is a faceless, nameless killer who was never caught as far as I'm concerned. I don't care the slightest bit what the actual canon is now.

Agreed 100%

 

[CConn]

Wikipedia doesn't have anything about Luthor and Superman growing up together before Smallville and Birthright, but it's entirely possible that it's wrong.

No, that was definitely a modern invention.

I was more referring to the LOSH's involvement in Clark's childhood. Plus, didn't Luthor's silver age origin did feature Superman's accidentally causing him to go bald? I don't think they were kids in Smallville during that, but still, it shows there is some early Superman/Luthor ties dating back to the 60s.

 

[Spike_x1]

Yeah, Lex was in Smallville for one story in his Silver Age childhood. It was essentially for the sole purpose of exposing the real reason that Luthor hated Superman. Was it some genius Shakespearean character story? Haha... no. Superboy accidentally caused Lex's baldness.

And the current DC higher-ups want to bring back this youthful relationship between Clark and Lex into comics... why, again?

 

[CConn]

It was the Silver Age. Nothing was of Shakespearean genius.

The current ruling class at DC seem to be one of the few people out there who really appreciate the Silver Age for what it was, and see how in many ways...they had the right ahead, it was just a little TOO campy, and a little TOO juvenile, but they seem to want to bring that same spirit of storytelling and sense of history back, but do it in a more adult, well written way.

Not saying I agree with it all, but the general principle of the matter, I think.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

I was about to mention that. Personally, I prefer that the Waynes' killer was never caught. It adds some delicious irony to think that the World's Greatest Detective can't find some two-bit hood.

Not only that (which is actually understandable given that the killer had, what, 17 years' head start between killing Bruce's parents and when Bruce actually became the World's Greatest Detective?), but it also makes Bruce's mission that much more tragic and beautiful: Even if he saves everyone in Gotham a hundred times over, he'll never catch the one criminal who matters most. Even if the guy keeled over and died from a heart attack a year after the murders, his specter will forever haunt Bruce.

 

[GyLocke]

I don't mind the connection between Clark and Lex. Exceptional people find each other. Works for me.

Ever read IT'S SUPERMAN? It's a book, a retelling of the Superman story in the 30's, how we got to the point in his debut in Action Comics

Spoiler

In it Lex is a young, corrupt politician ruling the underworld and finding it waay to easy/boring. He makes a silly world domination plot involving robots, but still not exciting enough. He only feels alive, when three armed thoughs attack him, and he manages to kill all three unarmed. When Superman foils his first plan, he couldn't be happier. He has to run, he loses everything, but the first time he's happy, he's loving this arch enemy stuff. He even sends Supes his first real costume made of some crazy new polimer. And to Clark he is the only one, who understands him too. It's a great way to connect their younger years.

I also had this idea in my head about Lex/Supes origin, and I'm drunk enough to share it. It involved a shadowy government organization (Checkmate for example) picking up young, homeless Lex from the streets and be amazed at his intelligence and other stats, shave his head to get rid of lice (something he makes a habit of to remind himself to the humiliation) trying to train him into their ultimate think tank/agent/staregist. Of course, by seventeen he takes over the organization, basically running most world governments.)
Lex finds Clark, introducing him to his alien heritage, maybe even true friendship, testing his tech, his first robo suits together, testing each others limits, maybe Lex even helps coming up with the Superman persona, but then in time they begin to see things differently and differ on what needs to be done (Luthor more ruthless) .

Throw in some BIG SPECIFIC INCIDENT (not being ruthless enough costs Luthor someone's life?) to drive them apart, and we have a Lex, who represents the status quo, the world as it is, so Supes can fight him to better the world, but also is a dark mirror to Supes, has a personal connection with him and can be a challange on all levels.

I'm not saying it's gold, it's just... professinals should do better than "Luthor was his classmate, and went bald from kryptonite..."

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Or, Luthor was an extremely intelligent science whiz who parlayed that into a vast business empire, came to own virtually all of Metropolis, commanded its people's affections and devotion, and, in spite of certain (significant) character flaws, sincerely wanted nothing more than to guide the rest of humanity to a future where they could all be (almost) as successful and amazing as he made himself. And then this cocky bastard of an alien randomly picks his city to "protect" by saving people left and right, effectively killing their innate fire to fulfill their own potential and stand on their own two feet, and, what's worse, they love him for it--even more than they love Lex.

If that ain't the start of a classic rivalry, I don't know what is.

 

[Young Superman]

Do you guys think Superman will ever be the sole survivor of Krypton again?

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Probably not. I don't think the New Kryptonians will be around forever, but after decades without a Supergirl called Kara Zor-El and who's Superman's cousin (no matter how snotty and obnoxious she may be compared to the first version), I doubt we'll go through another round of that now that we have one again.

 

[CConn]

I think being snotty and obnoxious is a trait of Kandorians.

 

[Spike_x1]

It was the Silver Age. Nothing was of Shakespearean genius.

The current ruling class at DC seem to be one of the few people out there who really appreciate the Silver Age for what it was, and see how in many ways...they had the right ahead, it was just a little TOO campy, and a little TOO juvenile, but they seem to want to bring that same spirit of storytelling and sense of history back, but do it in a more adult, well written way.

Not saying I agree with it all, but the general principle of the matter, I think.

For the good stuff from the Silver Age, I have no problem at all with it being brought back in well written and thought out ways. The shared childhood of Lex/Superman, however, is not what I would consider one of those good things. It was one cheesy issue, not some milestone or anything like that, and it seemed like the kind of thing where someone just thought "hey, it would be neato if Superboy knew Lex when they were growing up!" "Alright, what's the story?" "...Story? I dunno...uhh... how about Superboy makes Lex bald and that's why he hates him?"

That is not a story that needs to be brought back or reimagined for modern comics, especially at the price of doing away with the awesome backstory that Lex already had in recent continuity for his childhood and why he is the way he is.

 

[MaskedManJRK]

Yeah, like, it's really not that secret at this point.

Well, neither was Hal Jordan's, but that didn't stop them from doing that and selling thousands of issues.

F*** that. Joe Chill is a faceless, nameless killer who was never caught as far as I'm concerned. I don't care the slightest bit what the actual canon is now.

I think it works either way--Batman's mission was never for revenge, so it doesn't really matter if he knows who killed them or not.

As for the Clark/Lex thing--I'm not a huge Johns fanboy, but from what I've read, he's good at putting good spins on the silver age aspects. I'm sure it'll be akin to version in Birthright--where Clark inadvertantly destroys Lex's chance at discovering alien life and hates him for that and the baldness just being a side effect of the explosion.

Oh, as for the Lex's body stuff--so far we've only seen a few pages from what's probably the first issue. Considering how he's combined all the ages of characters (Hawkman) so far, I could see him adding that, making himself as physically powerful as a Bruce Wayne.

 

[GyLocke]

Oh, Superman TAS, how did you get everything so perfect?
From Lex (awesome buff arrogant genius), through Brainiac (Kryptonian supercomputer, partly responsable for the totality of the kryptocide) to Supergirl (not actual Kryptonian, but from a sister planet, making Supes still the last survivor).

Flawless.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

I didn't like the TAS Brainiac. I like the Coluan aspect and I missed his telepathy. Superman's got exactly one cool, long-standing telepathic villain and the cartoon ruined that.

 

[Spike_x1]

I always thought that was the perfect way to treat Supergirl. They got their cake and could eat it too.

 

[CConn]

For the good stuff from the Silver Age, I have no problem at all with it being brought back in well written and thought out ways. The shared childhood of Lex/Superman, however, is not what I would consider one of those good things. It was one cheesy issue, not some milestone or anything like that, and it seemed like the kind of thing where someone just thought "hey, it would be neato if Superboy knew Lex when they were growing up!" "Alright, what's the story?" "...Story? I dunno...uhh... how about Superboy makes Lex bald and that's why he hates him?"

That is not a story that needs to be brought back or reimagined for modern comics, especially at the price of doing away with the awesome backstory that Lex already had in recent continuity for his childhood and why he is the way he is.

Yeah, and they obviously disagree with you.

 

[Spike_x1]

Yeah, and they obviously disagree with you.

Thank you for that insight.

Obviously I hadn't already realized that, and therefore I never typed this:

I honestly want to ask Didio and Johns why they felt that they had to sacrifice that? The Joker doesn't need to have grown up with Bruce Wayne. Why does Lex need to have grown up with Clark? It doesn't add anything to his character, except for whining while Clark tries to be nice to him, and really, who cares about a backstory like that?

It's not as if I know that they don't agree with me, and that I'm simply curious about what appeal the Silver Age story has over the Post-Crisis one, and voicing my thoughts on the matter. That would just be silly.

 

[Dark Victory]

I've alway been a very casual fan of Superman(picked up an issue or a tpb here and there), but this story sounds interesting for a guy who knows next to nothing about the Man of Steel. I'm also a fan of Geoff Johns and Gary Frank so I'm at least picking up the first issue. Like I need another four dollar comic.

 

[GyLocke]

Oh, as for the Lex's body stuff--so far we've only seen a few pages from what's probably the first issue. Considering how he's combined all the ages of characters (Hawkman) so far, I could see him adding that, making himself as physically powerful as a Bruce Wayne.

You see, I would love to believe he'll make an effective mix of different versions but it doesn't always work.

In MOS, Bryne made Supes different, by letting the Kents live and give him advice and comfort. A happy, wholesome upbringing and family background - a rarity in comic books. John's idea of mixing this with the silver age is to kill Johnatan Kent for no good reason and to very little effect, leaving Martha alive - like we didn't have a dozen lonely Aunt May characters in comic books. I don't mind killing long standing characters for a good story, but I never saw the good stories that were worth killing Clark's pop.

His death felt like an afterthough, the whole story said "What's he doing alive? He is supposed to be dead! Heroes supposed to have at least one dead father figure. Ever read a comic book? Let's fix this!"

John's is working with comic book clichés.
Sometimes it works great: if Sinestro is exciting, let's create a bunch of new corps in green lantern for different emotions. In this case, he was right.

But sometimes it fails: if Zod is exciting, let's create hundreds of thousands of Kryptonian survivors to deal with. What an exciting rollercoaster ride of ideas!

That's why I don't think he's the right guy to "reboot" Supes origin. It's "the silver age + his "out of the box" ideas" never really looking at what happened between them. I get it, it's his taste and his style, it's just not my cup of tea.

 

[Eros]

Lex luthor: Man of steel, is the comic I recommend for anyone who doesn't get modern age Luthor.

 

[Young Superman]

I always thought that was the perfect way to treat Supergirl. They got their cake and could eat it too.

Agreed

 

[Young Superman]

When is this coming out?

 

[sdc10]

I want to start jumping into superman comics but the trades are vastly over priced imo. The last trade i picked up (aside from all star supes) was the last son of krypton, mostly because it was written by Donner and introduced modern Zod. But the length of the Brainiac trade def doesnt warrant the price tag.

 

[ironman29758]

For the good stuff from the Silver Age, I have no problem at all with it being brought back in well written and thought out ways. The shared childhood of Lex/Superman, however, is not what I would consider one of those good things. It was one cheesy issue, not some milestone or anything like that, and it seemed like the kind of thing where someone just thought "hey, it would be neato if Superboy knew Lex when they were growing up!" "Alright, what's the story?" "...Story? I dunno...uhh... how about Superboy makes Lex bald and that's why he hates him?"

That is not a story that needs to be brought back or reimagined for modern comics, especially at the price of doing away with the awesome backstory that Lex already had in recent continuity for his childhood and why he is the way he is.

well Lex was in alot of superboy silver age story. and it was more complex that Lex hating superboy because of the accident
I remember in that one issue I felt many sympathy for Lex because:

his dad was never around to guide him
he felt anger because of an a experiment that could have led to 1,000 experimennts, help superboy, couldn't be duplicated and it could have done great things and it was destroyed and his hair was lost so maybe he had to think superboy destroyed it on purpose and was jealous of him
he created things that could have helped people but backfired and then superboy destroyed it and the townfolks alienated him making him lonely
hero worship can do crazy things to people as seen before
he tries to be noticed and appreciated
and in the other stories of the silver age shows
Lex parents kicking him out
his parents and his freinds deserted him and fear him

and it lets Superman sympythizes with Lex and since he used to be freinds with him and also saw a brighter side of Lex so he could help him. so in a way Lex/ Clark Kent's freindship and the story with lex made him a more complex and sympathetic character . In fact you could see a similar story with the superboy /Lex story in smallville because:
In a way Clark is a reason Lex became evil
Lex tried to be respected and love
Father is factor of Lex's descent
superboy/Clark and Lex best freind
Lex aliented/Lex aliented and hated
Superboy accidently caused Lex to be bald(meteor shower in Smallville, super breath in comics)
etc