Television shows and canon

Discussion in 'Past Marvel Series' started by MisterDoctor, Mar 10, 2021.

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Which shows do you consider to be canon?

  1. Agents of SHIELD

    3 vote(s)
    37.5%
  2. Agent Carter

    7 vote(s)
    87.5%
  3. Inhumans

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  4. Daredevil

    1 vote(s)
    12.5%
  5. Jessica Jones

    1 vote(s)
    12.5%
  6. Luke Cage

    1 vote(s)
    12.5%
  7. Iron Fist

    1 vote(s)
    12.5%
  8. The Defenders

    1 vote(s)
    12.5%
  9. The Punisher

    2 vote(s)
    25.0%
  10. Runaways

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  11. Cloak & Dagger

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  12. Helstrom

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  13. WandaVision

    8 vote(s)
    100.0%
  14. The Falcon and the Winter Soldier

    5 vote(s)
    62.5%
  15. Loki

    1 vote(s)
    12.5%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. MisterDoctor Registered

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    WandaVision is considered MCU canon by everyone. This got me thinking... what constitutes as canon? Is it how the story fits into the meta-story? Is it the characters? Is it whatever the people who run MCU say? Or is it something more simple like everything is canon?

    I consider Agent of SHIELD and Agent Carter canon but I don't give much stock to the Netflix or Hulu shows, as much as I enjoy them. Haven't seen Helstrom yet so I can't speak to that. I also think WandaVision is canon but I don't consider it anymore canon than AOS or AC. Others think WandaVision is above everything. I don't think it's above AOS which in my opinion is a superior show overall. For me, WandaVision, AOS, and AC are the canon shows while the rest are tiers below and I think it has to do with the characters. These three have a plethora of characters that crossover from the movies to television or vice versa regardless of time period. The others only have mentions.

    What shows do you personally consider to be MCU canon and why?
     
  2. NHawk19 insert witty comment

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    It all starts with the movies & Fiege. Wandavision is clearly canon as its events will be referenced in future movies those being Captain Marvel 2, and Dr. Strange MVoM. Agent Carter is likely canon, though I believe some of it conflicts with a One Shot that was previously canon. Thing is Jarvis from Agent Carter showed up in End Game after the show making the show or at least his character canon.

    None of the other shows have fed up to MCU proper in a direct onscreen manor. Yes, there's the Helicarrier from AoS but that's never confirmed in the movies only within AoS. Also the MCU has released an official Darkhold in WandaVision which is 100% canon. Unless they say Agatha got that from Coulson or something along those lines, that's the first piece of evidence that AoS is really now being de-canonized.

    I had really high hopes for that show and it started off nice. Even the WS impact made it interesting. Things just got campy and weird after a while though until they all just stopped trying completely. That show could've started the transition to S.W.O.R.D. but now the movies have their entity as created by Monica and her mom instead of Fury and Coulson.
     
  3. SPO2 Dalisay Rebel in exile, again.

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    Until a movie explicitly contradicts something from a TV show I consider them canon. Something like a different look to the Darkhold is no more consequential than Colonel Rhodes or Dr. Banner looking different to me. With multiverse and branched timelines being a possibility after quantum travel and the Disney+ Loki miniseries speculations things are about to get as messy canon wise just as when the Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. hit their time loop pod and missed when they guessed on how Avengers Infinity War would play out.
     
  4. Web-Head Black Widow is coming

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    I consider Feige's name attached to it to mean it's canon. Agent Carter and WandVision are the only shows I consider canon.
     
  5. Dark Raven It's not about what you deserve...

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    Inhumans in no way is canon, especially after its abject failure. Marvel have probably cut ties with it as quickly as they cut Medusa's hair in the first 15 minutes of the show.

    Helstrom? What's that? No-one at Marvel Studios would care about that show.

    Runaways and Cloak and Dagger exist in their own little pocket universe practically.

    That only leaves the Netflix shows and the Agents shows. Of the Netflix shows, the only ones I see Marvel using are Daredevil and Punisher.

    Of the Agents shows, Agent Carter is likely canon. Agents of SHIELD is so incompatible with the rest of the MCU now that I don't think Feige would even bother with that. Maybe he considers Coulson dead all this time and it seems as if the other Avengers do. Why have none of them ever been told?

    There was only ever one-way traffic with all of these except for Agent Carter with Jarvis in Endgame. But is he Agent Carter's Jarvis or is Marvel just reusing the actor again in the same role like they might possibly do with Daredevil and Punisher? If they do use DD, I don't think they're likely to reference all of his 3-season history.

    And of course WandaVision is canon. Why is that even up for discussion? There's no doubt about that.
     
  6. PunyGod Astronomer

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    This. The first 5 seasons of AoS still work. And most of the other shows too. At some point the Netflix heroes will be rebooted. But thanks to the concept of the multiverse all of these stories still happened somewhere.
     
  7. MisterDoctor Registered

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    So WandaVision and Agent Carter are canon but Agents of SHIELD isn't. Why? Humor me.

    The only thing that's incompatable is the subtext of "One year later" at the beginning of season 6, and the Darkhold from Season 4. The subtext bothers me as much as it does for Spider-Man and the Darkhold bothers me because WandaVision broke continuity but that can be imagined with magic. Everything else fits well. It's especially clever with what happened in Captain Marvel. The writers of CM had AOS in mind. If they didn't then it was a crazy coincidence.

    As for Coulson, he said he wants to be the one to tell the Avengers that he's alive.
     
  8. Web-Head Black Widow is coming

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    Because Kevin Feige was a producer on both shows and clearly WandaVision is canon with existing MCU characters crossing over and ya know, again, Kevin Feige working firsthand and promoting the show. He did none of that with AoS.
     
  9. Web-Head Black Widow is coming

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  10. NHawk19 insert witty comment

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    ^ In short they don't directly say no. Even though they say they didn't reference anything from AoS or even watch it.

    They continue the dance because there was a lot of money and effort put into the show and they don't want to torpedo those efforts. They'd rather make sure there's still an open door and an avenue for potential profits from it.
     
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  11. Zarex Registered

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    There's quite a few reasons to suspect AOS and the cinematic MCU occur within different realities. SHIELD ceased to exist as a going concern in the MCU after the events of CA:TWS, but existed as a major player on the world scene during much of the run of AOS. There was a massive expansion of super powered humans due to terrigen enhanced fish oil, but that was not mentioned during the negotiations regarding the Sokovia Accords. After the split with Marvel Entertainment and Marvel Studios, no characters from the movies appeared on the TV show. And no characters from AOS ever made an appearance in the movies (Why wasn't Patton Oswalt in the AOU Helicarrier?) . The team did not experience the effects of the blip. None of them showed up at Earth's last stand, even super useful AOS members like Quake, though Strange asked Wong "Is that everyone?". And SHIELD, which doesn't exist in the cinematic MCU, is the space agency of record in the series finale instead of SWORD.

    I am sure there is a lot more, but the cinematic MCU and AOS are incompatible and have been for a while. It is best to think of the show taking place in an alternative time line in which Coulson lived.

    Too late! Coulson died for realsies at the end of Season 5.

    If he goal was to keep the show compatible with the cinematic MCU, ABC and the showrunners should have had Coulson be an LMD all along, kept the team small, and had them act as a sort of Marvel 'A Team', traveling throughout the world investigating and solving problems. That's the direction I thought they were going in after the HYDRA reveal and the CA:TWS crossover. But by the beginning of Season 2 the team had a well stocked base with lots of additional employees and no known funding source. Oh well.
     
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  12. SPO2 Dalisay Rebel in exile, again.

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    However Vision did bring up the "exponential increase of enhanced people" during the debate among the Avengers. Adding an Ant-Man and a Spider-Man does not give you an exponential increase in numbers. So what did?
     
  13. Zarex Registered

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    Thor, Loki, Hulk, Abomination, Cap, Bucky, Vision, Wanda and Pietro. Given the context of the argument I'd include Natasha, Clint, Rhodey and Sam in there as well.
     
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  14. SPO2 Dalisay Rebel in exile, again.

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    9 or 11 is far from an exponential increase
     
  15. MisterDoctor Registered

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    SHIELD went underground hiding after the events of TWS. That was expressed during the show for the next couple of seasons.
    When the UN wrote the Accords, did they know about the fish oil pills? The show expressed that the pills were quickly removed off the shelves.
    Characters that from the movies to the show:
    Coulson (Season 1-7)
    Maria Hill (Season 1-3)
    Lady Sif (Season 1-2)
    Nick Fury (Season 1)
    Agent Sitwell (Season 1)
    Agent Blake (Season 1, 3)
    Agent Carter (Season 2)
    Howling Commandos (Season 2)
    Dr List (Season 2)
    Gideon Malik (Season 3)
    President Ellis (Season 4-5)

    True that no character from the show appeared in the movie but Jarvis appeared in Endgame. Granted, Jarvis was an Agent Carter character but characters, organizations, and items from AC appeared in AOS (Carter, Howling Commandos, Sousa, Arena Club, Dark Force).

    It was established in the show that the Patton Oswalt's characters were assigned to run the bases.
    Season 1-6 took place pre-snap with the entirety of Season 6 taking place in 7 to 8 days. Seadon 7 took place in the past.

    Coming back to life is Coulson's superpower.
    The recruiting was explained in Season 2. The funding was explained by President Ellis in Season 4.

    I don't see the show as incompatible. Everyone I introduce the show to see the connections as clever.
     
  16. Zarex Registered

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    I'd say going from 1 (Iron Man) to a dozen or so super powered types would qualify as an exponential increase.


    They were "underground" with a large, well stocked base and dozens of employees. Who they heck was funding all that? It never made sense to me. And they weren't exactly covert in their actions before Talbot (I believe) brought them fully back into the spotlight.

    The show certainly made it seem like it was a big deal, with Melty Guy, YoYo and dozens of others known Inhumans. It was a big deal on the show and a nothing burger in the movies, though both were dealing with the proliferation of powered types. Incompatible.

    I understand that the goal of Marvel Entertainment was to have film and TV be all connected, and I was absolutely down with that. But the pipeline dried up with the Marvel Studio split. Ellis and Coulson were the only characters continuing from the movies, as neither Blake nor Malick were MCU film characters.

    This was the big one for me. Why the hell was there no Koenig on the Helicarrier? Would it have killed Whedon to put ONE character from his TV show into his movie? At that point I came to terms with the fact that the films and movies were not in the same continuity.

    Not true. News reports showed the events of Infinity War took place at the end of Season 5. If the show was in the MCU the Snap would have taken place then.

    I don't recall either reason, but I felt the large payroll was incompatible with a film series that continued to ignore SHIELD.
     
    #16 Zarex, Mar 19, 2021
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2021
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  17. MisterDoctor Registered

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    Between the events of TWS and when Talbot brought them back in the spotlight, the Agents operated in covert. That was made clear throughout that run. Where the funding came from was explained when President Ellis and Coulson had the conversation in Season 3 I believe. ATCU and SHIELD were always being funded but SHIELD was being funded in secret because they were considered a terrorist organization by most of the world. That was the reason Bobby and Hunter has to quit. Whenever the Agents went out in mission, the were always undercover. They've been CIA, FBI, Interpol, etc... but never Agents of SHIELD. Or the operated covertly in the shadows. The first episode of season 2 was all about that.
    The Sokovia Accords were a part of Agents of SHIELD. Melty guy signed them off screen and Yoyo signed them on screen with Jeffery Mace. The proliferation of powered types was definitely a theme of the show and the movies. I don't see the inconsistency here.
    Malick was on the World Security Council in Avengers. In AOS they said he served on the World Security Council. You don't hire an actor like Ruth Powers and have him play two separate roles in the same franchise.

    Blake was in one of the short films. Are you suggesting that those aren't canon either?

    There was also Daniel Whitehall who I forgot to mention. He was one of the doctors in TWS during Bucky's memory flashback.
    This is what did it for you...the fact that a Keonig wasn't on the helicarrier? There was a Keonig at the base where the helicarrier was being built. Where do you think the helicarrier from AOU came from? If SHIELD had truly fallen in TWS, where did this group come from?
    I went back and watched the ending of season 5 and the beginning of season 6. Don't know why I thought season 6 took place pre-snap. In the end of season 5 they say that Thanos's forces are attacking New York. 2-3 episodes later the season ends. The snap could still take place after the season is over. Season 6 starts with "One year later" and Mack saying we still have people missing and these anomalies have been going on for the last 3 days. The people missing is likely the crew in space but can be interpreted as the half that was dusted. Considering the anomalies started before the season started and the rest of the season takes place in a few days, the opportunity to investigate what happened may not have been a priority as things moved quickly.
    Coulson was traveling the world looking for Agents that were still loyal to SHIELD after the events of TWS.

    I suppose it's a matter of perception. Some might find AOS can be easily woven into the overall MCU story. Others might think it's a stretch. No show has borrowed so many characters from the films than AOS. It was clever how they handled Coulson in Captain Marvel. The writer clearly had the show in mind. They could've broke AOS right there but they didn't. They chose not to. Nothing has been officially announced but there are rumors that Clark Gregg and Chloe Bennett maybe reprising their roles in Secret Invasion.
    Exclusive: Agents Of S.H.I.E.L.D’s Chloe Bennet Lined Up For A New Marvel Series
    If this happens would you consider AOS canon then?

    Here's a good video showing how time travel in AOS coincides with the MCU.
     
  18. Zarex Registered

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    Powers Boothe did not play Gideon Malick in the Avengers film. He played - or more specifically, his voice portrayed a WSC member. Gideon Malick was created for the AOS TV show. Agent Blake may or may not be canon in the MCU. My point was he never appeared in the movies.

    The fact that no one from the AOS TV show was on the Helicarrier with Nick Fury, even though it would have been extremely easy to give a shout out to fans of the show by putting a popular actor like Patton Oswalt on board, was definitely the moment I came to terms with the fact that its not all connected.

    The events in Infinity War took place over a relatively short period of time, so the fact that there was no blip on TV during season 5 suggests the two realities were not compatible. I understand why the show runners ignored it. Since no one on the show battled Thanos or his children, it would have been awkward to have what was expected to be the series finale end with the finale of a (somewhat) unrelated movie.

    I would love for Quake and LMD Coulson to appear on the Secret Invasion show. I think it would be a lot of fun. But if they do I think it will be a "soft" reboot of the AOS characters and the events of the show still will not be canon.
     
  19. MisterDoctor Registered

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    My mistake. I meant Powers Boothe. I had the wrong name in mind. He was one of the characters Fury was talking to on the World Security Council in Avengers and was suspiciously missing in TWS. On AOS they specifically said he served on the World Security Council implying he was the same character.

    Everything else we can agree to disagree. Our perceptions are different.
     
  20. MisterDoctor Registered

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    Added the Falcon and Winter Soldier to the list above
     
  21. Web-Head Black Widow is coming

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    Scrolled through Disney Plus today and I noticed Runaways, Inhumans and other Marvel shows were separate from the "Marvel Cinematic Universe" collection, which did include WandaVision, The Falcon and The Winter Soldier.
     
  22. Dark Raven It's not about what you deserve...

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    How are they classified instead?
     
  23. Web-Head Black Widow is coming

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    Something along the lines of "Marvel live action series and specials"
     
  24. Primal Slayer Let the Siren scream

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    WandaVision, Falcon/WS, all D+ Marvel shows...canon.

    Agent Carter, Netflix shows...canon

    AOS up until....Season 5? canon

    Freeform/Hulu shows...not canon
     
  25. Holy Slapper Registered

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    Yeah, AoS until season 5 when they started time travelling and left canon.
     

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