Telltale's The Walking Dead

[Rodrigo90]

Yeah, I think her story in general has come full circle.

It would be nice to see hee in the future in some form, either as a supporting character or a cameo.
But I doubt they'll ever state which ending was the true one, a bit like Silent Hill 2.

 

[Upset Spideyfan]

Spoiler

I stuck with Kenny until the end. Jane was manipulative and was engineering a situation send Kenny off the deep end, not to mention she escalated the fight.

Kenny proved himself when he pleaded for the children to get into Wellington (an offer I took up).

I got seriously teary eyed there at the end.

Goodbye Kenny and possibly Clementine, I'm glad I met you two.

 

[Rodrigo90]

 

[ShadowBoxer]

I think that this season finale was okay but it definitely isn't as emotional or intense as season 1's finale was.

Spoiler

I stuck with Kenny and even allowed him to kill Jane. Honestly, I am glad I didn't shoot Kenny as the ending where Clem stays in Wellington is good and slightly emotional.

I am interested to read the other endings of the game as I heard they are darker for some reason.

 

[Leenie]

Spoiler

I stuck with Kenny until the end. Jane was manipulative and was engineering a situation send Kenny off the deep end, not to mention she escalated the fight.

Kenny proved himself when he pleaded for the children to get into Wellington (an offer I took up).

I got seriously teary eyed there at the end.

Goodbye Kenny and possibly Clementine, I'm glad I met you two.

Spoiler

First time I played the episode, I shot Kenny. When it was revealed that Jane lied, I left her. Man, I was so angry and sick over my decision that I decided to play the episode again and make the different decision. I'm so glad I did, because the ending felt much more rewarding.

I decided to go into Wellington and let Kenny go (because his #1 wish was to keep the baby safe, IMO). I was on the verge of "ugly" crying with this ending. It's so perfect. And I feel so bad that I doubted Kenny the first time I played the episode. I don't condone him killing Jane, but he definitely took responsibility for it in his ending and wanted to do whatever he could to save the children, especially when he wanted only the children to go into Wellington. Plus, Jane turned out to be a psycho by putting the group in jeopardy like that just to prove some point (a point that she consciously did everything in her power to instigate).

 

[Upset Spideyfan]

I am going to say my main issue with episode 4/5 is

Spoiler

It goes through hoops to make Kenny seem like the bad guy but he doesn't really do very much that endangers the group. Yes he argues a whole ****ing lot, but it was Luke who went for a quickie and abandoned his post. It was Arvo who caused Luke to die by very deliberately trying to lose us on the ice field. Bonnie and Mike's decision to abandon the others to die got Clementine shot. Time and time again other people endanger the group and then they go and blame Kenny for it.

And don't get me started on Jane. Who decided the best way to prove to Clementine that Kenny was unstable was by accusing him of directly getting his loved ones killed, pretending to have lost the baby, and then pull a knife on him rather than tell the truth.

I felt so vindicated when Kenny got us to Wellington and then successfully got Clem and AJ inside.

 

[Leenie]

In regards to Kenny,

Spoiler

I think that Kenny's temper is what created a lot of the tension within the group. While he was 100% right about Arvo and Jane (Jane is up for debate, I suppose), his hot-headed nature and his inner turmoil got the best of him. At least he wasn't a backstabber though. Kenny's goals were all brought out in the open; he was never dishonest with the group at all.

It really gets to me that Mike and Bonnie were all "Poor Arvo, that young boy!" then, they LEAVE Clementine, a young girl, after she's shot (after all the stuff she's done for them). Screw the two of them. Mike especially makes me sad, because I grew to really like the guy. Bonnie kind of lost me when she kept ordering Clementine to go out on the ice to help Luke because she's "lighter." Ugh.

In regards to Season 3,

Spoiler

I am really hoping that Christa is the playable character for Season 3, due to plenty of unanswered questions. That, or we get an all new character that ends up in the same group as Christa.

 

[Rodrigo90]

The theme of the game was Clementine coming up to a point where she no longer carried out the wishes of others. She did what she wanted, she made her own decisions for others to carry out for her.

Spoiler

I felt it best that she stayed with Kenny. She had no choice but to lose her parents, Lee, Omid, Christa and Luke. The choice to stay with them was taken out of her hands. So when she's presented with the choice to stay with somebody she cares about or leaving them forever, like others before Kenny, I made it. She defied what others were pressuring her to do for once. Kenny told her to stay, she told him that she wasn't, which I felt tied the emotion of her journey of life and loss better together, that she doesn't have to lose everybody she cares for, just the once, even. You hold on to them for as long as they live. It was an ending that potentially showed a bit of light at the end of that dark tunnel for all of them.

 

[Matt]

My thoughts on Kenny/the ending/etc

Spoiler

I killed Kenny. I stand by that decision. I've watched the Wellington ending and frankly, I don't see it as preferable. Kenny is a good man. But he is so desperate to get it right, to get a win, that he would send Clementine and the baby behind some giant wall of mystery all to gratify his own ego. There is no guarantee that Wellington is a good place. It seems nice, but so did Woodsbury. Yes, the people seemed nice on the surface. So did the Governor. Point is, we have no idea what Wellington is but Kenny sends Clem and Alvin in there all so he could be right and get a win.

Kenny is a loose cannon. Remember how quickly he would turn on Lee? Endanger the whole group? Kenny's actions are what ultimately led to Lilly snapping and killing Carlie. Kenny shoved her right off the deep end. **** seems to follow Kenny because of his temper. He doesn't think, he causes trouble, then he begs for forgiveness. Jane was right. Kenny is a little bit of power away from becoming Carver. Did Jane manipulate the situation? Sure. But I don't think her intention was to kill Kenny. I think a bad situation got out of hand for her.

In the end, I let Clem take control of her own fate. She went with Jane, but even with Jane, it is very clear that the dynamic had changed. In the Kenny ending, Kenny is still very much in control (Kenny needs to be in control, to control Lee, to control Clem, to control Jane...it is the story of Kenny and why he is so dangerous in a world with no control). In Jane's ending, on the other hand, Clem is the dominant one. We went to Carver's compound and started over. We let the family in...yes, that makes the ending a bit ambiguous as to their intentions, but my thought was, "What would Lee do?" So yeah, I feel like in the end of the Jane ending, Clem takes control of her own fate and decides to live on her terms...no more turning people away. Clem can build her own community.

 

[Rodrigo90]

I have to disagree with that.

Spoiler

Kenny knew that the people at Wellington were caring. He knew it all along and it was confirmed when they tossed the supplies down. What he did wasn't for a win. Everything he did was for the safety of people he cared about. He has his issues, but he was presented with hard times, and he reacted in his own way. Sure, he was firey and explosive, but he cared and he was a good man. I could never forgive Jane for doing what she did. She manipulated and provoked Kenny in the worst of ways. Of course, she was testing him and wanted him to react less violently, fearing what it would cause if he continued on like that. But it was a despicable act do. Clementine forgiving her is so messed up, and it sort of twists her into bordering villainy in the future.
Kenny wanted Clem to remain innocent and a child in Wellington. Jane wanted Clem to be like her, which is a messed up concept. Then for Clem to be presented with the choice of letting in or turning a family away was horrible. Whereas the Kenny ending was more emotional and innocent in nature.

 

[Matt]

I have to disagree with that.

Spoiler

Kenny knew that the people at Wellington were caring. He knew it all along and it was confirmed when they tossed the supplies down. What he did wasn't for a win. Everything he did was for the safety of people he cared about. He has his issues, but he was presented with hard times, and he reacted in his own way. Sure, he was firey and explosive, but he cared and he was a good man. I could never forgive Jane for doing what she did. She manipulated and provoked Kenny in the worst of ways. Of course, she was testing him and wanted him to react less violently, fearing what it would cause if he continued on like that. But it was a despicable act do. Clementine forgiving her is so messed up, and it sort of twists her into bordering villainy in the future.
Kenny wanted Clem to remain innocent and a child in Wellington. Jane wanted Clem to be like her, which is a messed up concept. Then for Clem to be presented with the choice of letting in or turning a family away was horrible. Whereas the Kenny ending was more emotional and innocent in nature.

Spoiler

But isn't Jane's point well taken? What if Clem goes with Kenny and does something that results in AJ's death? Will Kenny kill Clem? Kenny cannot be trusted. It is only a matter of time before one of his outbursts kills Clem.

And I disagree that the Wellington ending is unambiguous. The way the gates simply close leaves a buttload of ambiguity, IMO. As for them throwing food...the Governor was amicable toward Rick at first also. Kenny has no way of knowing that Wellington is a good place. Him saying, "I knew it," doesn't make it true. We have no idea what is behind that wall. Kenny sending Clem in out of desperation is another one of his reckless moves.

 

[Rodrigo90]

Spoiler

But isn't Jane's point well taken? What if Clem goes with Kenny and does something that results in AJ's death? Will Kenny kill Clem? Kenny cannot be trusted. It is only a matter of time before one of his outbursts kills Clem.

And I disagree that the Wellington ending is unambiguous. The way the gates simply close leaves a buttload of ambiguity, IMO. As for them throwing food...the Governor was amicable toward Rick at first also. Kenny has no way of knowing that Wellington is a good place. Him saying, "I knew it," doesn't make it true. We have no idea what is behind that wall. Kenny sending Clem in out of desperation is another one of his reckless moves.

Spoiler

He would have never intentionally hurt her or AJ. That much is clear. Kenny's only a loose cannon when provoked, and Jane was pushing him to his limits, very cruelly. He's a mean SOB, but it's only because he worries about what may happen to those he cares about. You can't blame the guy for his temper. His temper could one day potentially cause too much trouble that it may result in deaths, but that's only happened with Jane, because he thought she killed the baby.

Jane let herself in for the trouble with Kenny, because she pushed him. Though Jane DID try to stop the fight by putting her knife away, and she did say the baby's death was an accident. Kenny didn't listen and let his temper win out. He let his negative feelings towards Jane win out, so he just concluded he killed the baby, only because she seemed to care only for herself.

Jane WANTED Kenny to overact, and she knew he would. So she wanted him to leave her and Clementine. Did she do it with the the intention of killing him? Perhaps. Which was hinted at. That was pretty low.

Kenny's recklessness stemmed from his desperation to keep Clementine and AJ safe. I guees it's a no won situation for him. He's reckless in his temper and reckless in his caring. I guess basic human emotions have no place in that world anymore! You have to be cold and ruthless to be accepted

 

[Matt]

Spoiler

He would have never intentionally hurt her or AJ. That much is clear. Kenny's only a loose cannon when provoked, and Jane was pushing him to his limits, very cruelly. He's a mean SOB, but it's only because he worries about what may happen to those he cares about. You can't blame the guy for his temper. His temper could one day potentially cause too much trouble that it may result in deaths, but that's only happened with Jane, because he thought she killed the baby.

Jane let herself in for the trouble with Kenny, because she pushed him. Though Jane DID try to stop the fight by putting her knife away, and she did say the baby's death was an accident. Kenny didn't listen and let his temper win out. He let his negative feelings towards Jane win out, so he just concluded he killed the baby, only because she seemed to care only for herself.

Jane WANTED Kenny to overact, and she knew he would. So she wanted him to leave her and Clementine. Did she do it with the the intention of killing him? Perhaps. Which was hinted at. That was pretty low.

Kenny's recklessness stemmed from his desperation to keep Clementine and AJ safe. I guees it's a no won situation for him. He's reckless in his temper and reckless in his caring. I guess basic human emotions have no place in that world anymore! You have to be cold and ruthless to be accepted

Spoiler

In this chapter alone, Kenny hits Clementine and THEN BLAMES CLEM. Kenny will hurt his loved ones when his temper wins out. Look at what he did to Larry. If Lee doesn't side with Kenny on literally EVERYTHING in season one, his temper causes him to initially refuse to go with Lee to try and save Clem. He only changes his mind after the boat is stolen.

Kenny's temper is just too much of a liability, IMO. Jane was trying to prove a point that needed to be proven: eventually Kenny's temper would result in the deaths of Clem and AJ.

In the end though, I think that this is the beauty of this chapter. There isn't a right call or a wrong call. All of the endings have valid arguments, which is why they all end ambiguously. Isn't that the point, after all? There is no safety or certainty for Clementine and there probably never will be. That is the world she lives in. Season one was about Lee preparing Clementine to live in and survive in the new world. Season two is about Clementine taking what Lee taught her trying to make her way through the new world and ultimately deciding how she wants to live and who she wants to be in the new world. That is why right before the final choice, we are given the flashback of a conversation with Lee where he and Clementine talk about the choices people are making. That is what the final choice is the ultimate representation of: who Clementine is going to be in the new world.

 

[Rodrigo90]

I agree with all that.

Ultimately, Clementine is what you make her. So there is no true ending, because her personality and feelings are left entirely up to you. All endings work perfectly well in every sense of the context, you know?

 

[Matt]

I agree with all that.

Ultimately, Clementine is what you make her. So there is no true ending, because her personality and feelings are left entirely up to you. All endings work perfectly well in every sense of the context, you know?

Yep. Exactly.

One scene that I found pretty enjoyable was the fire scene at the utility substation. This season has been desperately lacking in the quieter moments of season one, where you get to know the characters. That scene was a welcome addition and such a great calm before the storm moment. For a second there, I thought maybe, just maybe they could all make it work, make it through the chapter with minimal bloodshed, etc...The scene really does set up the final act perfectly. Everything is finally going well...until it isn't.

 

[Rodrigo90]

Yep. Exactly.

One scene that I found pretty enjoyable was the fire scene at the utility substation. This season has been desperately lacking in the quieter moments of season one, where you get to know the characters. That scene was a welcome addition and such a great calm before the storm moment. For a second there, I thought maybe, just maybe they could all make it work, make it through the chapter with minimal bloodshed, etc...The scene really does set up the final act perfectly. Everything is finally going well...until it isn't.

That scene was really nice. You did think the entire group would go strong, then it crumbles before your eyes

I felt this season really pushed you harder than the first one did

 

[Upset Spideyfan]

My thinking was thus:

Spoiler

Jane is just as damaged as Kenny is but has the added danger factor that she is manipulative. Kenny for all of his problems, and he has MANY, always let you know where you stood with him. If he had a problem he came out and said it.

Jane WANTED that fight and I believe it was because she wanted Clementine in her life and Kenny was an obstacle to that point. She was willing to put the baby at risk to make her point, there was no guarantee that if she lost (which she did) Clem or Kenny would find it.

Furthermore she at any point could have stopped the fight if she had blurted out that the child was alive. If she was trying to make the point that Kenny was dangerous, she didn't have to pull the knife on him. She wanted to kill Kenny, plain and simple.

When I told Jane to lay off after blaming him for the deaths of his loved ones (she's got nerve) she accused me of being just like Kenny in a real resentful way. That sent off warning lights in my head. This is a woman who left her sister to die. Yes she came back for Clem but how far is that instinct going to extend. She was willing to put us all in danger to make a point. She acts like she's a voice of reason but she's really anything but.

Wellington is the best chance for the two of them. Yes he doesn't know the community but the fact that they were given supplies speaks volumes. And unlike Jane he is able to put what he wants aside from what the children need which is shelter and some kind of stability.

Jane left the baby in a rusted out car and tried to get my friend killed. Kenny laid it out on the line time and time again. The man is a mess but I trust Kenny a thousand times more than I trust her.

 

[Matt]

My thinking was thus:

Spoiler

Jane is just as damaged as Kenny is but has the added danger factor that she is manipulative. Kenny for all of his problems, and he has MANY, always let you know where you stood with him. If he had a problem he came out and said it.

Jane WANTED that fight and I believe it was because she wanted Clementine in her life and Kenny was an obstacle to that point. She was willing to put the baby at risk to make her point, there was no guarantee that if she lost (which she did) Clem or Kenny would find it.

Furthermore she at any point could have stopped the fight if she had blurted out that the child was alive. If she was trying to make the point that Kenny was dangerous, she didn't have to pull the knife on him. She wanted to kill Kenny, plain and simple.

When I told Jane to lay off after blaming him for the deaths of his loved ones (she's got nerve) she accused me of being just like Kenny in a real resentful way. That sent off warning lights in my head. This is a woman who left her sister to die. Yes she came back for Clem but how far is that instinct going to extend. She was willing to put us all in danger to make a point. She acts like she's a voice of reason but she's really anything but.

Wellington is the best chance for the two of them. Yes he doesn't know the community but the fact that they were given supplies speaks volumes. And unlike Jane he is able to put what he wants aside from what the children need which is shelter and some kind of stability.

Jane left the baby in a rusted out car and tried to get my friend killed. Kenny laid it out on the line time and time again. The man is a mess but I trust Kenny a thousand times more than I trust her.

Spoiler

my point is this: Clementine can control Jane. The dynamic between Kenny and Clem in the final scene and Jane and Clem are worlds apart. In Kenny, Clem is the submissive little girl looking for protection. She isn't going to survive like that. In Jane, she is in control. Jane is submissive. Clementine can leverage Jane's desire to not be alone into control over Jane. Clem can manipulate Jane. She got her to come back and in their final scene, Clem was the one in control. She will NEVER be able to control Kenny.

My Clem grew up, in my eyes, when she watched Carver die. That is the point where she stops being a little girl and starts being a survivor. I think Jane better ensures that. If you pick Kenny, Clem remains a child, preserves her innocence etc, but a child cannot survive in this world. Furthermore, she continues to be acted upon by other forces. If you pick Jane, Clem becomes an adult and starts being the force acting on others. It may be dark, but turning Clem into that is the only way I can think to protect her by getting her to grow up and protect herself, as Lee and Hobo Chuck wanted in season one.

 

[Upset Spideyfan]

Spoiler

I didn't feel submissive with Kenny at all. To be honest I felt like the one who talked sense into him and calmed him down on numerous occasions. There were plenty of times I rebuked him on matters and we disagreed without it devolving into enmity.

Jane creates a situation to manipulate Clementine that involves placing all of their lives in danger in order to get the outcome that she wants. That seems WAY more controlling to me than the interactions I had with Kenny.

 

[Matt]

Spoiler

I honestly didn't feel submissive with Kenny at all. To be honest I felt like the one who talked sense into him and calmed him down on numerous occasions.

Spoiler

Clem can talk Kenny down at times, but not once he truly goes off. Remember, earlier in the chapter he hit Clem and then blamed her for it. When she tried to stop the fight, he entirely ignored her. Kenny is easily the dominant one in that relationship.

 

[Upset Spideyfan]

Spoiler

Kenny didn't hit my Clementine.

I felt as if I knew how to talk to Kenny without things ever boiling over. I gave him space when he needed it and confronted him when I thought he was acting like an ass.

 

[Rodrigo90]

I like the phrase "My Clementine"

 

[Upset Spideyfan]

Heh, I was mainly using it to differentiate what we experienced on our playthroughs but noted.

Spoiler

I liked Jane but I thought she was a pretty miserable person. The fact that she was still dangerous was exemplified by her leaving the baby in the car. She only cares about the kid because Clem does but otherwise its just a tool to her. That's not the kind of person I wanted Clem to turn into. The Walking Dead is full of enough children becoming hardened husks (and Clem is already a pretty tough and ruthless kid, she doesn't need to shed every shred of her humanity to survive).

 

[Leenie]

Heh, I was mainly using it to differentiate what we experienced on our playthroughs but noted.

Spoiler

I liked Jane but I thought she was a pretty miserable person. The fact that she was still dangerous was exemplified by her leaving the baby in the car. She only cares about the kid because Clem does but otherwise its just a tool to her. That's not the kind of person I wanted Clem to turn into. The Walking Dead is full of enough children becoming hardened husks (and Clem is already a pretty tough and ruthless kid, she doesn't need to shed every shred of her humanity to survive).

I agree completely with this.

 

[Matt]

Heh, I was mainly using it to differentiate what we experienced on our playthroughs but noted.

Spoiler

I liked Jane but I thought she was a pretty miserable person. The fact that she was still dangerous was exemplified by her leaving the baby in the car. She only cares about the kid because Clem does but otherwise its just a tool to her. That's not the kind of person I wanted Clem to turn into. The Walking Dead is full of enough children becoming hardened husks (and Clem is already a pretty tough and ruthless kid, she doesn't need to shed every shred of her humanity to survive).

I disagree with this. Jane clearly cares about AJ as shown by the scene where Clementine lets her hold him and she instantly softens up.

Never-the-less, the fact that everyone has such differing takes on the characters (based on how Clem reacted and their reactions to Clem) shows how well Telltale did in crafting this game. The ending may not have been as emotional as season one's (but what really could be?) but I love how ambiguous and gray it is. Perfect representation of the world of The Walking Dead.