The Last Jedi TFA vs TLJ

[BatLobster]

And I can understand some of the disappointment in Finn having goofy, affable moments by finding dissonance in that behavior with his background, but I sometimes (not specifically to you) feel that people talk themselves into a more critical view of Finn's goofy behavior than is warranted. Finn is actually a very serious character at all his plot important points: his opening scenes, his confessions at Maz's palace, his full face turn when Rey gets kidnapped, his charge towards Kylo. His humor is founded primarily in forging a bond with Rey, Poe, and Han, and is overall very John-McClane-in-Die-Hard: he's someone who knows he's in over his head, and is running on manic desperation. That's part of the reason why he gets a bit less comedic after Rey gets kidnapped; he's having to face his fear and control it, so it, and his corresponding mania, only pop-up occasionally.

Maybe he doesn't have the tortured psyche people expect from a brainwashed soldier, but I kind of feel that's the point. They're following the clone troopers in showing the faceless shock troops as still being tragically relatable and shockingly normal... when they're not trying to kill you.

And regardless, the TLJ subplot with Finn is incredibly sloppy, with the most important character moments both being underwhelming compared to even the first scene in TFA and founded largely in expositional dialogue.

To me, TFA made Finn the perfect entry character for old and new fans. And TLJ pissed it away.

Fair take. Finn didn't really work for me entirely in either film, but when I look at the totality of his character across both films I feel like I can start to see something there that can hopefully be done justice in 9. I don't feel like anything has been pissed away, he just took a bit more of a backseat here. On the other hand, Poe took more of a front seat, which I was cool with- and he needed development badly after TFA.

I can't disagree on the Canto Bight stuff being a bit clunky and probably favored Rose over Finn (who I like as a new addition), but I still think it was pretty satisfying to see a more fully-committed Finn get to fight and defeat Phasma and I found his one-liners ("Rebel scum") and comedic bits ("oh they hate that ship!") were more on-point by the time we got to the second half of the film.

I also have a hard time criticizing a Star Wars film for having some exposition. Every single one of them has it. I mean think about how much Luke is simply told by Obi-Wan in Episode IV about why he should go on the adventure. It's always been there as part of the world-building. I just feel like "exposition!" has become every arm-chair screenwriter's go to criticism (not directing that at you in particular-- just a general trend), when sometimes it just has to be there to move the story along and this franchise in particular has always had it. I can understand saying the Canto Bight stuff was a bit on the nose and preachy, but the fact that Rose talks to Finn about a bit about war profiteering...I mean, plenty of my favorite films have stuff like that. It's not a deal-breaker for me, and generally I appreciated how this film was willing to slow down the pace and breathe a bit at times. That's an important part of a Star Wars film to me.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Han grew most in ANH. He goes from uncaring scoundrel to the exact opposite. 100% disagree he grows more in TFA. As for how the film held together, the entire core-plot is a carbon copy of the original Star Wars. Further they name-drop other characters or events from other movies seemingly every few seconds. Yes Rey and Finn are clearly their own characters, but despite that they spent a fair amount of the movie salivating over the original trilogy elements.

As for the visuals, we probably will just have to disagree on those. Nothing in force awakens is as pretty to me as snoke's throne room or Holdo's lightspeed jump. It just has more visual Dynamics in my opinion

Han is never uncaring. Its a facade, a part of his tough guy act. TFA shows Han Solo the father. A man full of shame, regret and even fear.

The core plot is not a carbon copy of Star Wars. It is more akin to an OT greatest hits, but even that would be inaccurate.

My favorite imagery in Star Wars are the Duel in the Clouds and the Duel in the Snow. Nothing quite like them.Then you TFA has a better shot Falcon chase, the attack on the Jakku village, Han's death, Starkiller Base firing, Rey's daily life on Jakku, etc.

 

[Limonade]

I liked TLJ more than TFA. The story, because of Luke's quasi-participation, felt a bit more complete to me (sans Han) than anything produced in the last two decades, being honest.

 

[godisawesome]

The Last Jedi is easily better. A far more interesting and epic story, despite it's many flaws.

The Force Awakens is a paint by numbers nostalgia-fest without an original thought in its head. It's basically an inferior remake of the original.

Oddly enough, I kind of see TLJ as also suffering from being a by the numbers nostalgia-fest... save for the subversions and their execution in the Force plot. And since I've got complex feelings on elements of the Force plot (mostly that I think Luke's just a tad too broken, though tolerable, and Rey feels underwritten in comparison to Kylo and Luke here, and in comparison to Luke in the OT), to me, the exagerrated caricature of ESB elements in TLJ makes it inferior to TFA.

ESB had a great chase of our other heroes, separated from their Jedi member early on? TLJ has one too, but replace the kinetic intensity of a marvelous chase through asteroids and space worms with a straight line slow speed chase where nothing changes for 18 hours. The Empire is the unstoppable juggernaut wearing the supporting characters down with a massive logistical edge? TLJ has that too, but with an even bigger Super Star Destroyer, and exaggeratedly comically incompetent villains whose reason for being unable to catch the heroes is deeply questionable. ESB sets up a potential romance between two of our heroes away from the first film's suggested pairing, and uses them to raise the emotional stakes of the film once it reconnectes to the main P plot? TLJ has a tepid, half-hearted version they're not dedicated to in case they want to change their minds later, surrounded by a botched subplot that just barely ties into the overall plot. ESB features a cunning trick by the heroes to evade detection by enemy ships (literally hiding right on the back of a Star Destroyer), but the gambit fails because of an equally cunning enemy? TLJ does that too!... But without the cunning, since the heroes' trick relies on the villains being too stupid to visually watch the Raddus instead of relying on sensors, and to not get suspicious when the Resistance fleet heads right by a habitable planet in space. ESB has walkers attack and overwhelm the heroes before taking their base with snow troopers? So does TLJ!... Though I will admit the Force story coming in here helps because Luke's last stand is boss.


The Force plot is where the most focus and time went into making the risks work, and it paid off. It's why this film is good, and not bad. Mark Hamill's given great material to work with, as is Kylo Ren, and the plotline comes to a satisfying conclusion. But I do feel that TFA approached its ANH material a bit more originally, especially with Finn as the main functional protagonist until Rey is called by the saber, and by depicting the First order as more of a North Korea in space. And even as good as the Force plot is, I also feel I can argue effectively that it made Rey, ostensibly the trilogy's protagonist, to third wheel behind Luke and Kylo, and that it yet again refused to progressive her beyond the mystery of her parents. At least TFA had the Force awaken inside her.

 

[Grootster]

TFA, by far (and that's coming from someone who isn't even a huge fan of TFA).

At least TFA feels somewhat like a Star Wars movie and had some minor form of character development. TLJ doesn't feel much like Star Wars at all, and the characters are even more underdeveloped and flat.

 

[Spider-Fan]

Han is never uncaring. Its a facade, a part of his tough guy act. TFA shows Han Solo the father. A man full of shame, regret and even fear.

The core plot is not a carbon copy of Star Wars. It is more akin to an OT greatest hits, but even that would be inaccurate.

My favorite imagery in Star Wars are the Duel in the Clouds and the Duel in the Snow. Nothing quite like them.Then you TFA has a better shot Falcon chase, the attack on the Jakku village, Han's death, Starkiller Base firing, Rey's daily life on Jakku, etc.

The core story in TFA is a droid carries info the rebellion/resistance need and the first order/empire want it. It ends up on a desert planet where they find a force sensitive youngling who must leave home and pursue the fight, leading to an ultimate confrontation with brand new starkiller/death star that they need to blow up. Oh, and they at some point go to a bar for passage. That core story is exactly ANH. TLJ also.plays with familiar elements often, but it does so more originally as opposed to using the same mold.

As for TFA, him being a father doesn't mean he grew more. The arc in ANH just shows far more growth, imo. As for the shots you mention, the opening bomber fight, Snoke's.throne room, and the lightspeed jump all still trump those to me. TLJ just was more dyanmically shot IMO.

I am not say TFA is a bad movie or has bad camera work. Despite my issues with it, I still like the movie. I just feel TLJ trumped it in every regard.

 

[moviedoors]

I also have a hard time criticizing a Star Wars film for having some exposition. Every single one of them has it. I mean think about how much Luke is simply told by Obi-Wan in Episode IV about why he should go on the adventure. It's always been there as part of the world-building. I just feel like "exposition!" has become every arm-chair screenwriter's go to criticism (not directing that at you in particular-- just a general trend), when sometimes it just has to be there to move the story along and this franchise in particular has always had it. I can understand saying the Canto Bight stuff was a bit on the nose and preachy, but the fact that Rose talks to Finn about a bit about war profiteering...I mean, plenty of my favorite films have stuff like that. It's not a deal-breaker for me, and generally I appreciated how this film was willing to slow down the pace and breathe a bit at times. That's an important part of a Star Wars film to me.

I agree with this generally, but I also came into this thread thinking about the one scene in THE FORCE AWAKENS that I really find it difficult to sit thru, and it's the scene where Han and Leia catch up. It's two characters just bluntly stating things they both already know to each other. It feels like the rough draft version of a scene, where all that's on the page is the bare intentions and it's still awaiting the more elegant rewrite. It leaves Ford and Fisher stranded.

I'll also touch on the "THE FORCE AWAKENS is a remake of A NEW HOPE" charge. I rewatched it for the first time all the way thru last night since seeing it in theaters, and I still feel like this is somewhat over-stated. Yes, it copies some broad strokes, but they're pretty broad. And I like Starkiller Base! It's a foreboding, apocalyptic visual. But, I do agree the movie as a whole leans too heavily on nostalgia. Like why is that scene with Han shooting Chewie's gun in there? He's never picked that gun up before in decades? Do we really need to see that little practice droid? Trash compactor references? It's just too on the nose. I love it as a Star Wars fan, but the film lover in me has to admit it falls just short of really being all the way great.

And I'm getting to my point: THE LAST JEDI, all day long. I just saw it again, and it's just so damn good. I love it as a Star Wars fan AND as a film lover.

 

[writer0327]

Initially I said TFA after the movie first came out. But in the last 2 weeks, I have watched TLJ four times in the theater. Each time I love it more and I still want to see it again. I'm going with TLJ.

 

[Adhesive Boy]

Definitely TFA. For all it's shortcomings in just being repetition of ANH to such a high degree I don't think it has nearly as much in terms of plot holes and conveniences as TLJ did. TFA's story is just more competently put together.

That's more than enough to win comfortably but not being terrible at following established things from the OT increases the gap even more.

 

[writer0327]

TFA, by far (and that's coming from someone who isn't even a huge fan of TFA).

At least TFA feels somewhat like a Star Wars movie and had some minor form of character development. TLJ doesn't feel much like Star Wars at all, and the characters are even more underdeveloped and flat.

The characters of Rey, Finn, Kylo, and Luke are incredible developed, IMO. In fact, I think Kylo Ren has possibly the most interesting story in all of Star Wars lore.

 

[Grootster]

The characters of Rey, Finn, Kylo, and Luke are incredible developed, IMO. In fact, I think Kylo Ren has possibly the most interesting story in all of Star Wars lore.

I have to disagree. Finn basically rinse-repeated his character arc from TFA ([BLACKOUT]coward who's trying to run away from the fight into brave man who's willing to sacrifice himself for his friends[/BLACKOUT]). Rey hasn't changed a whole lot whatsoever from where she was at the end of TLJ (she didn't even change a whole lot in TFA). Luke's arc was very basic and overdone for such an important character to Star Wars history ([BLACKOUT]world-weary man is convinced to rejoin the fight[/BLACKOUT]). Kylo just kind of flip-flops and ultimately ends up [BLACKOUT]staying who he was in TFA[/BLACKOUT].

Even outside of changes or arcs the characters feel kind of lacking in interesting and strong personality to me. Finn is fun I suppose, but not terribly memorable this movie. I could honestly forget Rey is even in TLJ because she's just boring to me; she lacks that passionate, headstrong personality that made Luke (and even Anakin to some extent) memorable and fun (not saying Anakin was a great character, but I honestly remember his personality more.) Rey has moments, but a lot of the time she just feels...there. In TFA she had some fun, witty moments ("I bypassed the compressor", "the garbage will do"), but I don't remember anything like that here, no banter or anything. I've said it before, but I think she needs more interaction and camaraderie with her co-stars.

I do agree that Kylo has an interesting personality (by far the best thing about this trilogy), but he felt kind of wasted here. I didn't particularly like the direction they took with Luke, but I'll admit he was memorable in this. Outside of Luke, the only character that really stuck with me after seeing this movie was Leia...which I really didn't expect to say considering I didn't like how she was handled in TFA.

I'll admit that the Rogue One characters could have been developed and nuanced a bit more, but I feel like they were at least all given interesting and distinct personalities. (One could even say archetypal personalities, but at least archetypes are memorable...I'd argue the OT cast were somewhat archetypal). Chirrut could have had a stronger arc, but at least I remember his personality and distinctive characteristics. He sticks with me a lot more than any of the ST characters. I felt like the new cast was decent in TFA (I could certainly see potential), but they just felt wasted in TLJ to me.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

The core story in TFA is a droid carries info the rebellion/resistance need and the first order/empire want it. It ends up on a desert planet where they find a force sensitive youngling who must leave home and pursue the fight, leading to an ultimate confrontation with brand new starkiller/death star that they need to blow up. Oh, and they at some point go to a bar for passage. That core story is exactly ANH. TLJ also.plays with familiar elements often, but it does so more originally as opposed to using the same mold.

As for TFA, him being a father doesn't mean he grew more. The arc in ANH just shows far more growth, imo. As for the shots you mention, the opening bomber fight, Snoke's.throne room, and the lightspeed jump all still trump those to me. TLJ just was more dyanmically shot IMO.

I am not say TFA is a bad movie or has bad camera work. Despite my issues with it, I still like the movie. I just feel TLJ trumped it in every regard.

That lightsaber duel between Vader and Luke was so good. As was when Leia, the Stormtrooper defected to the Rebellion. Vader fighting to embrace his grandfather's legacy was moving. Luke couldn't possibly leave Tatooine, waiting for his family and all. And when he found Yoda at the end, stunning.

It's easy to make it a carbon copy when you avoid nuance and big chunks of the film. Like Finn, Kylo and Rey's characters and how they easily change the story. One of the most important, obvious points to how it is clearly its own thing is how little blowing up the Starkiller is to the main narrative. Its all about Rey and Kylo. Its why Poe does it. Not Rey.

And I say outside of the Throne Room, TLJ did much less with its look in comparison to TFA. Its not nearly as dynamic. Costume design outside of Rey's new look is poor. Sticking general Leia in dresses throughout was a bad decision imo. Kylo looks much better in TFA. Also I do think you mentioned the Falcon being kind of weightless in TFA, which is kind of ironic considering Kylo and his Tie.

 

[GREEN =w= DAY]

Despite TFA being a rehash of ANH, it was a much better movie than TLJ

TLJ had too many plot holes and stupid character moments unlike TFA. Top it all off, TLJ just totally disregarded everything that Abrams set up with TFA.

 

[MagnarTheGreat]

The Force Awakens > The Last Jedi

 

[Snow Queen]

On the topic of Last Jedi's visuals, I found them to be a bit of a disappointment in general. Both in terms of cinematography and general design work. I feel like the only location that really works as well as it could is the throne room, while places like Crait feel underused for me. Not to mention some green screen and CG I found to be terribly unconvincing. I do really like Rey's costume and the Praetorian Guard costumes, but I'd definitely give that to TFA. Another reason I'm glad Abrams is coming back, as I feel that's one area that TFA knocked it out of the park.

 

[Spider-Fan]

That lightsaber duel between Vader and Luke was so good. As was when Leia, the Stormtrooper defected to the Rebellion. Vader fighting to embrace his grandfather's legacy was moving. Luke couldn't possibly leave Tatooine, waiting for his family and all. And when he found Yoda at the end, stunning.

It's easy to make it a carbon copy when you avoid nuance and big chunks of the film. Like Finn, Kylo and Rey's characters and how they easily change the story. One of the most important, obvious points to how it is clearly its own thing is how little blowing up the Starkiller is to the main narrative. Its all about Rey and Kylo. Its why Poe does it. Not Rey.

How can you save destroying the Starkiller base was not the main point of the narrative, when the entire climax of the movie is focused on destroying it. Just like the Death Star. Yes in this case the plot was focused around the map to Skywalker as opposed to plans for the Starkiller base, but nevertheless the plot of playing out the same. The first order and the Empire are doing the exact same thing chasing people, who may have slightly different backstories than the people in the original trilogy, but that does not change the fact that the story is playing out beat for beat the same. You can put whatever cosmetic changes you want to some of the characters and stuff and change their back stories a little, but that does not change the narrative being the same.

Also I would argue A New Hope is better because the plot makes more sense. The map to Skywalker is never adequately explained. We know they're looking for Luke Skywalker for some reason, and this map leads to him. But as for why this map exist in such still remain a mystery. Also by making Starkiller base one thing and the map to Skywalker another, it doesn't make the two plot lines mesh as cleanly. The map to Skywalker to me just seems like an attempt to keep the audience wanting to see him, and living off the Nostalgia of the original trilogy by teasing him. Also it isn't explained why this is the dominant thing the first order is doing. I get the obvious Luke as a Jedi and they want to get rid of him, but that is all we know. Further the relationship between the resistance and the Rebellion is not adequately explained How can there be a resistance if the Republic is in power? I can live with the first order being explained to some offshoot of the empire, but when watching the force awakens, I was very confused as to the relationship between the resistance in the rebellion. In A New Hope the politics are very simple. There's a rebellion going against the Empire. Simple straight to the point needs no further explanation.

And I say outside of the Throne Room, TLJ did much less with its look in comparison to TFA. Its not nearly as dynamic. Costume design outside of Rey's new look is poor. Sticking general Leia in dresses throughout was a bad decision imo. Kylo looks much better in TFA. Also I do think you mentioned the Falcon being kind of weightless in TFA, which is kind of ironic considering Kylo and his Tie.

Once again here we don't agree. The Opening space battle with the bombers is very dynamically shot. Just look at the way they put the camera in positions on the starships were not used to. Such as when they focus just that one person's eye when she wakes up and things like that. They play with the camera a lot. They pretty much do this all throughout the movie. So for me in the end, the movie Just is more Dynamic than Force awakens ever was both visually and story-wise

 

[Spider-Fan]

And once again, I don't hate TFA. I like it a lot and find it very charming, I just think it has flaws and feel TLJ and OT surpass it

 

[BatLobster]

I'm honestly surprised to see people down on TLJ's cinematography. I thought it looked gorgeous for the most part. Creature design still looks great, continuing the healthy mix of practical and CG from TFA. The Fathiers looked a bit iffy I'll admit, but with the Rathtars always sticking out like a sore thumb in TFA to me I'm willing to call it even there. Snoke looks much better, and no I'm sorry but I can't buy the Hologram thing as an excuse for how subpar he looked in TFA. Snoke appears as a traditional blue hologram in TLJ and looks much better there too. It just wasn't the best choice to portray him that way in TFA, imo. The return of actual space battles is always welcome in a Star Wars film too, though I won't fault TFA for bucking tradition there.

My issue with with the forest battle in TFA is it's got that overly blue hue that makes it feel like a lit set rather than an actual forest at night (which it is). The stakes just don't feel as big in the third act for me as opposed to TLJ, where it really soars all the way through the end and is firing on all cylinders. The moment where Rey force grabs the saber is a really nice, "Star Wars magic" moment, but for me TLJ managed to spread out that feeling over the entire last 15-20 minutes or so. A film that goes out with a bang really makes all the difference for me.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

How can you save destroying the Starkiller base was not the main point of the narrative, when the entire climax of the movie is focused on destroying it. Just like the Death Star. Yes in this case the plot was focused around the map to Skywalker as opposed to plans for the Starkiller base, but nevertheless the plot of playing out the same. The first order and the Empire are doing the exact same thing chasing people, who may have slightly different backstories than the people in the original trilogy, but that does not change the fact that the story is playing out beat for beat the same. You can put whatever cosmetic changes you want to some of the characters and stuff and change their back stories a little, but that does not change the narrative being the same.

Also I would argue A New Hope is better because the plot makes more sense. The map to Skywalker is never adequately explained. We know they're looking for Luke Skywalker for some reason, and this map leads to him. But as for why this map exist in such still remain a mystery. Also by making Starkiller base one thing and the map to Skywalker another, it doesn't make the two plot lines mesh as cleanly. The map to Skywalker to me just seems like an attempt to keep the audience wanting to see him, and living off the Nostalgia of the original trilogy by teasing him. Also it isn't explained why this is the dominant thing the first order is doing. I get the obvious Luke as a Jedi and they want to get rid of him, but that is all we know. Further the relationship between the resistance and the Rebellion is not adequately explained How can there be a resistance if the Republic is in power? I can live with the first order being explained to some offshoot of the empire, but when watching the force awakens, I was very confused as to the relationship between the resistance in the rebellion. In A New Hope the politics are very simple. There's a rebellion going against the Empire. Simple straight to the point needs no further explanation.



Once again here we don't agree. The Opening space battle with the bombers is very dynamically shot. Just look at the way they put the camera in positions on the starships were not used to. Such as when they focus just that one person's eye when she wakes up and things like that. They play with the camera a lot. They pretty much do this all throughout the movie. So for me in the end, the movie Just is more Dynamic than Force awakens ever was both visually and story-wise

Because it's not. The climax of the film is Rey embracing the Force, and defeating Kylo. A Kylo who has also "awakened" by killing his father (though not how he intended). Hence the search for the map to Skywalker. It is the focal point not only of the climax, but the entire film. Poe does what he does and then we cut back to what matters. The entire base plot line functions to the goal of this. Putting Han and Rey in Kylo's reach.

This is one of the reasons I prefer TFA. It isn't about blowing up a base. It is about a young woman and young man making decisions that set them on a path down the light and dark of the Force. It's the eternal battle between the light and the dark that defines Star Wars.

Also did you just ding TFA for not telling us where the map comes from? Really? t:

The Resistance opposes the First Order? What is complicated about that? You throw in the word Rebellion, which has no baring on anything in TFA. Just like how TLJ decides to suddenly turn the Resistance into the Rebellion.

Give me the Falcon chase in TFA over those any day. Give me the duel in the snow. Give me JJ's Force vision. Better color grading, better cinematography, better costume design, better effects work.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

I'm honestly surprised to see people down on TLJ's cinematography. I thought it looked gorgeous for the most part. Creature design still looks great, continuing the healthy mix of practical and CG from TFA. The Fathiers looked a bit iffy I'll admit, but with the Rathtars always sticking out like a sore thumb in TFA to me I'm willing to call it even there. Snoke looks much better, and no I'm sorry but I can't buy the Hologram thing as an excuse for how subpar he looked in TFA. Snoke appears as a traditional blue hologram in TLJ and looks much better there too. It just wasn't the best choice to portray him that way in TFA, imo. The return of actual space battles is always welcome in a Star Wars film too, though I won't fault TFA for bucking tradition there.

My issue with with the forest battle in TFA is it's got that overly blue hue that makes it feel like a lit set rather than an actual forest at night (which it is). The stakes just don't feel as big in the third act for me as opposed to TLJ, where it really soars all the way through the end and is firing on all cylinders. The moment where Rey force grabs the saber is a really nice, "Star Wars magic" moment, but for me TLJ managed to spread out that feeling over the entire last 15-20 minutes or so. A film that goes out with a bang really makes all the difference for me.

Nothing wrong with TLJ cinematography. TFA's is simply better imo, like Empire and Star Wars are simply better.

One of the major issues with the third act of TLJ is it forgets the protagonist exist.

 

[spiderman2]

Nothing wrong with TLJ cinematography. TFA's is simply better imo, like Empire and Star Wars are simply better.

One of the major issues with the third act of TLJ is it forgets the protagonist exist.

I don't think TLJ has a issue with the 3erd act its like perfect and the best part of the movie.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

I don't think TLJ has a issue with the 3erd act its like perfect and the best part of the movie.

Where is Rey?

By the way, I say this fulling acknowledging I am the #1 Luke fanboy, and that the third act probably contains my favorite scene in film history.

 

[spiderman2]

The Last Jedi is easily better. A far more interesting and epic story, despite it's many flaws.

The Force Awakens is a paint by numbers nostalgia-fest without an original thought in its head. It's basically an inferior remake of the original.

I find that TFA is far superior to ANH and it is not a remake at all. Does it have similarities? Yes but its part of star wars so of course it does has ever franchises have things that like make it that franchise.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YbaliPyihCY
Around 7:42 he talks about the whole being a remake type of thing.

 

[BatLobster]

See, I honestly Luke and Rey were co-protagonists in this film. (and Kylo, who acts as both but reverts back to antagonist by the end). Luke clearly does not fit squarely into the mentor archetype that Rey (and we) are expecting him to fall into, and Rey's plea with him ends up being as much, if not more about Luke finding his way back to the Force as it is about Rey needing a teacher/parent figure.

Luke buys the Resistance time and inspires the galaxy, but Rey joins the fight and is the one who actually saves them in the end. I mean compare that to Luke in Empire. What does he actually accomplish? He falls into a trap, is not able to save his friends and gets his hand cut off.

The fact that Luke had a more pronounced journey in this film isn't a flaw to me. I liken it to TDK where Harvey/Batman/Gordon are all co-protagonists but Harvey undergoes the biggest change and can therefore be argued to be the lead protagonist.

The title of this film refers to Luke. IMO it's his second hero's journey in the saga.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

See, I honestly Luke and Rey were co-protagonists in this film. (and Kylo, who acts as both but reverts back to antagonist by the end). Luke clearly does not fit squarely into the mentor archetype that Rey (and we) are expecting him to fall into, and Rey's plea with him ends up being as much, if not more about Luke finding his way back to the Force as it is about Rey needing a teacher/parent figure.

Luke buys the Resistance time and inspires the galaxy, but Rey joins the fight and is the one who actually saves them in the end. I mean compare that to Luke in Empire. What does he actually accomplish? He falls into a trap, is not able to save his friends and gets his hand cut off.

The fact that Luke had a more pronounced journey in this film isn't a flaw to me. I liken it to TDK where Harvey/Batman/Gordon are all co-protagonists but Harvey undergoes the biggest change and can therefore be argued to be the lead protagonist.

The title of this film refers to Luke. IMO it's his second hero's journey in the saga.

In the scenario you present, Harvey would have to stop the Joker to be comparable. You'd have to build the climax around him. The film doesn't. It's Batman's movie. This is Rey's movie and it is so for 2 acts. And then it isn't.

Spoiler

Even if I bought that argument, and I don't. But say I did, where is Rey? Not that Rey had to save the day. She needed to be more involved. They show her in the Falcon and then she is just randomly flying around, looking for them. Like she didn't see the base before. They basically come up with a flimsy way to remove her from the conflict.

One of the major flaws is how badly structured it is outside of Luke and Kylo. They have no real battle, Finn acts a fool, and instead of just using the Walkers with the big lasers on their back, they decide they need some mini-Death Star tech.