The Rise of Skywalker The Last Jedi vs The Rise of Skywalker

[writer0327]

TLJ by a landslide. It actually attempted to tell a meaningful story about failure, identity crisis, and finding your purpose and was 90% successful. I have watched TROS twice now and I still don't know what its about other than spectacle and melodrama.

 

[Blade Hoarder]

Is this for real? TLJ is a film. TROS is a collection of mcguffins suspended in the air by plot contrivances.

 

[C. Lee]

TROS.

 

[moviedoors]

TLJ by a landslide. It actually attempted to tell a meaningful story about failure, identity crisis, and finding your purpose and was 90% successful. I have watched TROS twice now and I still don't know what its about other than spectacle and melodrama.

Is this for real? TLJ is a film. TROS is a collection of mcguffins suspended in the air by plot contrivances.

Word.

People can moan about The Last Jedi all they like; setting aside whether one agrees with the direction, they cannot deny that it has direction and a focused point of view that it is aiming to be about something, and all of the narrative and dramatic choices are consistent with those thematic aims. I love those choices, but if others don't, that's fine. But it's there, it's baked into what that movie is.

But at least it had those goals and those aims and a direction. What the hell is The Rise of Skywalker about? This is not a movie interested in using the mythos of Star Wars as a jumping-off point to explore bigger ideas, akin to a Leone Western or a Kurosawa Samurai movie; it's a movie interested only in referencing itself in its past glory. It's about how awesome we all agree those old movies are. It's just so damned safe, needy, and hollow.

 

[Mr. Peanut]

It's interesting. I haven't seen RoS yet (after TLJ I'll never buy a Disney Star Wars movie ticket again), but I can easily tell I'll like it more than TLJ by a country mile. And yet I can easily see why some people prefer TLJ.

TLJ had much more of a focused theme and message than the other ST movies, that much is certainly true. The problem is that the theme was...meta commentary. Deconstruction. It was more concerned with saying something about Star Wars than it was with simply being a fun escapist fantasy adventure.

J.J., on the other hand, is all about the nostalgia wankfest. Less ideal than a purely unique and original story, but acceptable to most Star Wars fans. He pulled off the wankfest well with TFA, but a combination of circumstances (having a conflicting creative vision with Rian and TLJ, having to write around Carrie's stock scenes, having Terrio involved with the script) resulted in a much poorer wankfest with RoS. But in the end, RoS is still more concerned with being Star Wars than it is with being about Star Wars, which is what makes it more appealing to general audiences.

 

[Spider-Fan]

No, the theme of Last Jedi was not deconstruction, although that was a tool he certainly used in the story. The theme of the movie was about hope in the face of failure. All the main characters face defeat and disappointment and loss of hope. It's vital to the story that many of the plot threads lead to failure. But what happens when the heroes are facing darkest hour? Out comes Luke to light the spark of hope that they talked about all movie. To be the hero Rey thought he was at the beginning of the movie. It wasn't about deconstructing Star Wars or saying Star Wars sucks. It's very much the opposite. It's a love letter to Star Wars. It's showcasing why Star Wars is so important. Because it gives hope to people. I think that gets lost in the translation because people just want to focus on Luke throw the lightsaber over his shoulder. But that's not where the story ends.

 

[Gothamsknight]

The Rise Of Skywalker for me.

 

[The Chris]

The Last Jedi for me by a lot. Not only do I find it more engaging in its ideas and the way it pushes the characters and pushes you to examine what you love about Star Wars in the 1st place, but the Rise of Skywalker for me is fun but a mess on a filmmaking level. Especially with it's rapid fire pacing, safe creative choices and odd desire to be two movies jammed together (while being shorter than the previous film). As a filmmaker myself that is hard to ignore, and I've been a JJ fan since his early TV stuff.

 

[sycamore]

TLJ by a landslide. It actually attempted to tell a meaningful story about failure, identity crisis, and finding your purpose and was 90% successful. I have watched TROS twice now and I still don't know what its about other than spectacle and melodrama.

Exactly how I feel. Flawed as it may be, TLJ is at least coherent, ROS is just not.

 

[The Caped Knight]

Original Trilogy
1. The Return of The Jedi (My Favorite)
2. The Empire Strikes Back (ground breaking climax)
3. A New Hope (A timeless Classic jewel)

Sequel Trilogy
1. The Force Awakens (best)
2. The Rise of Skywalker (A mess but enjoyable moments)
3. The Last Jedi (hate it)

Prequel Trilogy
1.The Revenge of Sith (bridging the gap)
2. Attack of the Clones (wasted opportunities)
3. The Phantom Menace (the only good is duel of the Fates)

 

[pr0xyt0xin]

Both movies are disappointing at best. Potentially series-ruining at worst.

I personally have so much ire for the way Disney handled this trilogy. So safe and boring and scatterbrained and bleh.

Force Awakens was such a good start. Not perfect. But good. The only thing I would have changed is having ANOTHER planet killer. Now it seems like planet killing weapons are the only thing Star Wars stories are about. Ugh.

But The Last Jedi is almost unwatchable for me. Its forgettable and the sideplots are mind numbing. TLJ makes TFA a worse film and might actually also be the worst thing about Rise of Skywalker too. In that RoS feels like its the sequel to some different version of episode 8. Nothing in it makes sense.

This is a personal opinion but Rey should have went further down the dark side path. Perhaps nearly killing Ben (for killing Luke?) sending him crawling back to his mother and back to the light. We should have seen hints to palpatine in TLJ and Rey should have let the darkness in fully before teaming with Ben in the end and turning on him together. I am sure that concept came up in the writers room but disney was too coward to do it.

 

[Filmfan93]

The Rise of Skywalker.

I really like TLJ, but the problems with TROS come entirely from TLJ and how it had to fix all the things Rian did in that film:

- TLJ had Snoke killed so Palpatine's introduction (and demise) in the last film felt rushed. If he was introduced in TLJ and the journey to the wayfinder started there, the first half of TROS wouldn't feel rushed.

- TLJ established Rey's a nobody. TROS had to quickly fix that and offered a rushed revelation that she is a Palpatine. If Luke also wasn't killed in TLJ, she could've been revealed as Skywalker here and have more scenes with Luke to flesh out that (but since Luke is a Force Ghost here, they kind of close a lot of doors towards his appearance). And since Luke is dead, Rey being a Palpatine was more plausible, since it gave her some connection to the main villain of the ST (all 3 trilogies for that matter).

- TLJ had Luke killed while having the character not do anything for 90% of the film before that point. If Rian didn't kill him, Luke could've come to help Rey in the fight against Palpatine in TROS and not just be a force ghost and a voice throughout the film. JJ also tried to fix Luke with the lightsaber catch scene, as well as showing his hopeful and inspiring side (as he was in the OT). Rian did that, but it was in the last 15 mins of TLJ. People wanted the real Luke Skywalker for the majority of TLJ and not just towards the end. Luke was Luke for way too little in the ST.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

I was quite 'meh' on TROS. Abrams worst movie for me. But I downright hate TLJ now and find myself unable to watch it. So TROS for me, which tried it's best to fix many of the problems created by TLJ, but ultimately fell short half the time.

 

[Closerframe]

Despite its glaring problems, TLJ felt like it moved the story forward. Initially, I hated the direction it was taking the series, but in hindsight, a lot of the decisions made by Johnson make logical sense--specifically how Luke was depicted. For fans who disagree with this characterization because that's not the Luke they remember from RotJ, really consider how a person in real life would change over time. These characters shouldn't be depicted as two dimensional archetypes stuck in a time capsule because we need to give a majority of what the fans want. Clearly, taking that approach, backfired with TROS which felt like a bunch of Reddit fan fiction plot lines rolled up into one cataclysmic mess.

Everyone is free to have their opinion, but to argue TROS is a better film because it had more action sequences and easter eggs than TLJ, is a nonsensical observation that completely negates what Star Wars should be about. And I can't blame Johnson for TROS failures. No one told Abrams that he had to spent most of the movie undoing what Johnson set out to do. He could have taken the next step in exploring Ren's reign over the First Order and Hux's power struggle to maintain dominance over the ranks. Instead, he shoehorned Palpatine into the plot so it could feel as though there was an ultimate villain.

 

[psylockolussus]

The Last Jedi.

 

[Mr. Peanut]

No, the theme of Last Jedi was not deconstruction, although that was a tool he certainly used in the story. The theme of the movie was about hope in the face of failure. All the main characters face defeat and disappointment and loss of hope. It's vital to the story that many of the plot threads lead to failure. But what happens when the heroes are facing darkest hour? Out comes Luke to light the spark of hope that they talked about all movie. To be the hero Rey thought he was at the beginning of the movie. It wasn't about deconstructing Star Wars or saying Star Wars sucks. It's very much the opposite. It's a love letter to Star Wars. It's showcasing why Star Wars is so important. Because it gives hope to people. I think that gets lost in the translation because people just want to focus on Luke throw the lightsaber over his shoulder. But that's not where the story ends.

"Hope in the face of failure" is the theme of all of Star Wars in general. The first movie is literally called A New Hope. The second is about how this new hope fails in his role as the new hope. The third movie is about how Vader finds hope from within the ultimate failure of falling to the dark side. There was an entire prequel trilogy devoted to the failure of Anakin, the Jedi Order, and the Republic that eventually required a new hope.

The Last Jedi says nothing new about failure or hope. Everything new it has to say is in how it deconstructs Star Wars' long established theme of failure and hope. It shows different, more irreverent kinds of failure than what you would expect to see in high fantasy (hence why Luke milking sea cows was so important to Rian...it wasn't just failure he wanted, he wanted debasement of the grand fantasy archetypes), it makes the failure more critical of standard hero archetypes (in Luke and Poe's case), or built around subverting expections (Finn and Rose's side plot is designed to feel like the kind of side plot that would end in success so that it can properly feed into the main plot).

"Failure and hope" is a theme of TLJ, just as it's a theme of all of Star Wars, but what it really cares about is deconstructing that theme (along with plenty of others).

 

[henzINNIT]

This is a personal opinion but Rey should have went further down the dark side path. Perhaps nearly killing Ben (for killing Luke?) sending him crawling back to his mother and back to the light.

I mean... that is pretty close to what we saw in TROS anyway.

 

[Nemeres]

Poor The Last Jedi

With 'Knives Out,' Rian Johnson Finally Bounces Back From Critically Acclaimed, Billion Dollar 'The Last Jedi'

 

[Reaver027]

I hate TLJ and i think TROS was a decent movie. So my pick is TROS.

 

[Spider-Fan]

"Hope in the face of failure" is the theme of all of Star Wars in general. The first movie is literally called A New Hope. The second is about how this new hope fails in his role as the new hope. The third movie is about how Vader finds hope from within the ultimate failure of falling to the dark side. There was an entire prequel trilogy devoted to the failure of Anakin, the Jedi Order, and the Republic that eventually required a new hope.

The Last Jedi says nothing new about failure or hope. Everything new it has to say is in how it deconstructs Star Wars' long established theme of failure and hope. It shows different, more irreverent kinds of failure than what you would expect to see in high fantasy (hence why Luke milking sea cows was so important to Rian...it wasn't just failure he wanted, he wanted debasement of the grand fantasy archetypes), it makes the failure more critical of standard hero archetypes (in Luke and Poe's case), or built around subverting expections (Finn and Rose's side plot is designed to feel like the kind of side plot that would end in success so that it can properly feed into the main plot).

"Failure and hope" is a theme of TLJ, just as it's a theme of all of Star Wars, but what it really cares about is deconstructing that theme (along with plenty of others).

Deconstruction is not a theme. It's a method. Saying the theme of anything is deconstruction shows a fundamental lack of understanding the term. Deconstruction is a method of storytelling used to illustrate a theme or message. Not a theme unto itself. And yes, that is a larger theme of the series, but it's explored using a different method here.

 

[Mr. Peanut]

Deconstruction is not a theme. It's a method. Saying the theme of anything is deconstruction shows a fundamental lack of understanding the term. Deconstruction is a method of storytelling used to illustrate a theme or message. Not a theme unto itself. And yes, that is a larger theme of the series, but it's explored using a different method here.

If a semantic argument is really what you want, we can't go ahead and check Merriam-Webster:

Definition of THEME

a: a subject or topic of discourse or of artistic representation - guilt and punishment is the theme of the story
b: a specific and distinctive quality, characteristic, or concern - the campaign has lacked a theme

Deconstruction is most definitely a specific and distinctive quality of The Last Jedi, especially in relation to other Star Wars films. Therefore it can be considered a theme according to the second definition of theme.

 

[Spider-Fan]

If a semantic argument is really what you want, we can't go ahead and check Merriam-Webster:



Deconstruction is most definitely a specific and distinctive quality of The Last Jedi, especially in relation to other Star Wars films. Therefore it can be considered a theme according to the second definition of theme.

In storytelling terms, deconstruction is a method of telling the story. I have a degree in this field, bro. I know the difference between a theme and storytelling device. In storytelling terms, you're deconstructing a genre, series, etc in order to illustrate the broader theme or message of the story. This is not really up for debate. It's screenwriting 101.

 

[Mr. Peanut]

In storytelling terms, deconstruction is a method of telling the story. I have a degree in this field, bro. I know the difference between a theme and storytelling device. In storytelling terms, your deconstructing a genre, series, etc on order to illustrate the broader theme our or message of the story. This is not really up for debate. It's screenwriting 101.

You're being pedantic. Deconstruction is a recurring element that permeates and distinguishes The Last Jedi. What term would you use to distinguish a recurring a central storytelling device from one that is non-recurring? A story could use deconstruction in one particular scene, for instance, and then never again. But this is not what The Last Jedi does. Thus it is a recurring theme under the second definition of the word. Or would you prefer I use the word "motif"? Or "pattern"?

 

[Spider-Fan]

You're being pedantic. Deconstruction is a recurring element that permeates and distinguishes The Last Jedi. What term would you use to distinguish a recurring a central storytelling device from one that is non-recurring? A story could use deconstruction in one particular scene, for instance, and then never again. But this is not what The Last Jedi does. Thus it is a recurring theme under the second definition of the word. Or would you prefer I use the word "motif"? Or "pattern"?

I am not being pedantic. If you cannot answer the basic question of what does this mean that it is not a theme. Theme is the underlying meaning of work. You can say something is a deconstruction of something, but what does deconstruction mean? Deconstruction doesn't mean anything. It's a descriptive. It's not an idea that conveys a meaning. Now what the deconstruction is trying to say about a given work, that is its theme. So no I'm not being pedantic, being correct

 

[Mr. Peanut]

I am not being static. If you cannot answer the basic question of what does this mean that it is not a theme. Scene is the underlying meaning of work. You can say something is a deconstruction of something, but what does deconstruction mean? Deconstruction doesn't mean anything. It's a descriptive. It's not an idea that conveys a meaning. Now what the deconstruction is trying to say about a given work, that is its theme. So no I'm not being pedantic, being correct

Okay, then please answer my question. What term would you use to distinguish a recurring a central storytelling device from one that is non-recurring? Give me a better word to use and I'll use it.