'That was our kiss!!!!' Query?

[Dragon]

The implication is that she's dating John because she thinks he *might* be Spider-man. You don't have to agree with me, but IMHO it's pretty clear. What else exactly does he bring to the table? He's not Peter, but...

What are you basing this on?

What does John bring to the table??? He's a good-looking, accomplished, famous, RICH guy who loves MJ. And, as she obviously suspects Peter of being Spider-man "I guess I've always known" she sees that a relationship with Peter/Spider-Man is not very realistic. "You're just an empty seat".

And as for that kiss in the cafe, I'd almost be persuaded by your analysis if it weren't for what actually comes out of Mary Jane's mouth, as well as the face she makes.

"Kiss me."

"Kiss you?"

"Just one kiss...I need to know something."

Now what could she possibly need to know.

She wanted to know if Peter was lying or not about loving her. And yes, she also wanted to confirm if he was Spider-Man. but not because she was "looking for" Spidey. She wanted to understand why Peter was rejecting her. If she could be sure he was Spidey, then she'd know that he isn't shutting her out because he didn't love her, but because he felt they couldn't be together.

 

[The Joker]

She wanted to know if Peter was lying or not about loving her.

Exactly

You could tell she didn't believe him when he said he didn't love her. She wanted to kiss him to see if there was any feeling or passion in his kiss.

 

[Captivated]

Exactly

You could tell she didn't believe him when he said he didn't love her. She wanted to kiss him to see if there was any feeling or passion in his kiss.

There you go... I see you and Dragon are handling this argument nicely.

 

[dodus]

I don't know guys. Your interpretation isn't very cinematic, and I don't think it's what Raimi was going for. What's more compelling and worthy of drama--a girl who got a taste of Spider-man, developed a crush, and in 2 is using that one weapon in her arsenal--the kiss from 1--as a method for finding out his secret identity? Or the standard "lets see if there's any passion" kiss formula from every other relationship movie.

I don't think any of us are going to be able to come up with irrefutable evidence for one side or the other, so I'll stick with the more entertaining conclusion.

 

[Dragon]

I don't know guys. Your interpretation isn't very cinematic, and I don't think it's what Raimi was going for. What's more compelling and worthy of drama--a girl who got a taste of Spider-man, developed a crush, and in 2 is using that one weapon in her arsenal--the kiss from 1--as a method for finding out his secret identity? Or the standard "lets see if there's any passion" kiss formula from every other relationship movie.

I don't think any of us are going to be able to come up with irrefutable evidence for one side or the other, so I'll stick with the more entertaining conclusion.

I don't know about irrefutable, but at least what I'm saying is backed up by something on screen. What you're presenting is not only on screen, but contradicted by the action of the stories.

And if anything, what you're suggesting isn't cinematic at all. Or at least not good cinema.

I have ALOT of problems with the Peter/MJ relationship in both the movies and the comics. But what you're suggesting makes it extremely uninspired.

A girl with a crush on a superhero? How simplistic and superficial can you get? If that were all MJ was about, then she's nothing more than the typical damsel in distress looking for a permanent savior. We've seen this extremely boring concept portrayed for too many years in Lois Lane. Yes, early in Spidey 1 that's who MJ is. But she does begin to evolve.

At least, MJ loving and accepting Peter, the ordinary guy, over the extraordinary hero that few could measure up to, tells us some good things about her. First that she isn't totally superficial. Second, that all she's looking for is someone to believe in her, and she can find the strength to be a fully realized person without the need to always be saved.

 

[November Rain]

I'M stretching? I'm going based oin MJ's dialogue. I don't know what you're going based on.

In Spidey 1, in the cemetary she makes it clear that it's PETER, not Spidey she loves- "It wasn't who I thought it'd be- I kept thinking- I hope I get through this so I can see PETER PARKER'S FACE AGAIN". And the clincher: "I LOVE YOU PETER".

She could have easily told Peter she was in love with Spidey if that was the case.

And Spidey 2: "I can't keep thinking about YOU (Peter) It's too painful"

Does she even mention Spider-Man in Spidey 2? Her only feelings for Spider-Man are in that she suspects he's Peter.

Why on Earth would she think some random guy she wound up dating would be Spider-Man with no evdience to base it on? I mean, yeah I think Mj is a doofus, but that's too silly even for her.

As for the kiss in the cafe- again- she sees Peter continually flip-flopping on her. First he loves her, then he bails. Then he wants to start again, then he bails again. She wants to draw his real feelings out of him with a kiss. It's like that song from the 60's "If you wanna know if he loves you so, it's in his kiss".

alright, here's an interesting clencher...

if mj never mentions spidey in the second film and we're sure all her feelings are for pete, then why on earth is she recreating an experience she had with him with john.

this isn't a question to back up my case, but just an interesting parallel question that could also be discussed in this thread since it's all relevant.

 

[November Rain]

There you go... I see you and Dragon are handling this argument nicely.

The thing is that if you watch the scene as a separate entity away from the rest of the film as was showcased in the spiderman 2 teaser trailer and from all the knowledge of the second film, it becomes more evident that MJ is using her only clue about whom spiderman is to uncover whether pete is or not.

by her saying she needs to know something and not saying something along the lines of 'I need to know whether you truelly don't love me' means there must be something more to that kiss than simply detecting whether pete is lying about her feelings for him or not.

which then also must mean that there must be something more to her kiss with john.

I know one can easily say both of those scenes aren't related to one another but i honestly think they are, unfortunately i don't really have more than a gut feeling and some loose evidence to go on but my rationalisation makes me enjoy the film better.

 

[The Joker]

alright, here's an interesting clencher...

if mj never mentions spidey in the second film and we're sure all her feelings are for pete, then why on earth is she recreating an experience she had with him with john.

this isn't a question to back up my case, but just an interesting parallel question that could also be discussed in this thread since it's all relevant.

Well, at the end of Spidey 1, after she kissed Peter in the graveyard and he walks away from her, she puts her hand to her lips and turns to look at him with surprise.

So, she must have known, or at the very least sensed that Peter was Spider-Man. She must have gotten the same romantic rush kissing Peter that she did with Spider-Man. Otherwise, she wouldn't have looked so surprised after kissing Peter. So, in SM-2, she recreates the upside down kiss to see does she get the same exhiliration from kissing John like that.

When she obviously doesn't, she goes and seeks out Peter, laying her feelings for him on the line. Further backing up her "I think I always knew who you really were" statement. That's how I see it, anyway.

 

[Dragon]

Well, at the end of Spidey 1, after she kissed Peter in the graveyard and he walks away from her, she puts her hand to her lips and turns to look at him with surprise.

So, she must have known, or at the very least sensed that Peter was Spider-Man. She must have gotten the same romantic rush kissing Peter that she did with Spider-Man. Otherwise, she wouldn't have looked so surprised after kissing Peter. So, in SM-2, she recreates the upside down kiss to see does she get the same exhiliration from kissing John like that.

When she obviously doesn't, she goes and seeks out Peter, laying her feelings for him on the line. Further backing up her "I think I always knew who you really were" statement. That's how I see it, anyway.

Agreed Doc. And let's remember this is a movie. The reason for the upside down kiss with John is for cinematic reasons. If she merely kissed him in the normal way, we wouldn't fully get the idea that she's really trying to measure her feelings for John against her feelings for Peter.

 

[November Rain]

But surely the second rush she got with parker since she was in love with him would be greater than her rush with spiderman so if any kiss was to be recreated it would be the graveyard type kiss.

in the second film she doesn't even acknowledge spidey or talk about how she used to like him, so why revert back to experiences with spidey instead of experiences with peter.

it's very muddled.

 

[November Rain]

Agreed Doc. And let's remember this is a movie. The reason for the upside down kiss with John is for cinematic reasons. If she merely kissed him in the normal way, we wouldn't fully get the idea that she's really trying to measure her feelings for John against her feelings for Peter.

feelings for spiderman.

 

[Dragon]

The thing is that if you watch the scene as a separate entity away from the rest of the film as was showcased in the spiderman 2 teaser trailer and from all the knowledge of the second film, it becomes more evident that MJ is using her only clue about whom spiderman is to uncover whether pete is or not.

by her saying she needs to know something and not saying something along the lines of 'I need to know whether you truelly don't love me' means there must be something more to that kiss than simply detecting whether pete is lying about her feelings for him or not.

which then also must mean that there must be something more to her kiss with john.

I know one can easily say both of those scenes aren't related to one another but i honestly think they are, unfortunately i don't really have more than a gut feeling and some loose evidence to go on but my rationalisation makes me enjoy the film better.

You really took even the teaser as beng MJ trying to test if he's Spidey? Because I didn't. The teaser has her ask Peter if he loves her or not. Peter says no. Then she wants to kiss him to make sure. This to me was a direct connection to the cemetary scene in Spidey 1, when he first rejects her, even though he tells us in voiceover that he loves her. I took it to mean that MJ wanted to be sure of her and Peter's relationship, or the lack thereof, before moving on to John.

 

[Dragon]

feelings for spiderman.

Feeling for Peter- She knows or believes he's Spider-Man.

 

[Dragon]

But surely the second rush she got with parker since she was in love with him would be greater than her rush with spiderman so if any kiss was to be recreated it would be the graveyard type kiss.

in the second film she doesn't even acknowledge spidey or talk about how she used to like him, so why revert back to experiences with spidey instead of experiences with peter.

it's very muddled.

But there was nothing visually unique about the graveyard kiss. How were we the audience supposed to know if she was comparing John to Peter or just kissing him and thinking he's a lousy kisser?

 

[November Rain]

perhas by hightlighting that kiss with art done by alex ross in the beginning sequence, and shooting it in a similar light with facial reactions form similar angles.

 

[November Rain]

Feeling for Peter- She knows or believes he's Spider-Man.

it's ultimately for spiderman, who may or may not be pete.

her feelings and emotions for pete were resolved after her rejected her right up until it reminded and rekindled her feelings for spiderman since their experiences were similar.

if we are going by your analysis, she's always been chasing after that feeling she had with spiderman, which was recreated with pete at the end of the second film and not with john in the third.

spiderman first, pete second.

 

[Dragon]

perhas by hightlighting that kiss with art done by alex ross in the beginning sequence, and shooting it in a similar light with facial reactions form similar angles.

That would've been overdoing it. Particularly the alex Ross insert. None of the rest of the film had used that style of staging, so it wuld've broken the flow to use it here. It was simpler and more to the point to have MJ perform the upside down kiss on John. Even if there is debate as to what she wanted to accomplish by doing it, the connection at least is clear.

 

[November Rain]

the thing is that you may say it was overdoing it but they pretty much did the same thing in the last film.

when parker first realised he was getting his powers, something dropped off mj's tray, he caught it and didn't realise how.

now when harry drops his vase, he catches it and the ball in a similar manner and doesn't know how it's done.

to hightlight the relationship between these two scenes, the former is shown to jog people's memories that it occured in the first film.

same goes for the upside down kiss to contrast with the events in this film...

actually the upside down kiss is also highlighted by alex ross in the second film to jog people's memories about it to contrast with mj's kiss with john.

You are normally more vigilant that this dragon, the opening scene recap in both sequels have always been specifically used to refresh the crowd for events about to happen. I dont see how you've missed this in not only the first sequel but in both sequels.

 

[Dragon]

it's ultimately for spiderman, who may or may not be pete.

her feelings and emotions for pete were resolved after her rejected her right up until it reminded and rekindled her feelings for spiderman since their experiences were similar.

Explain that again- I don't understand what you mean.

If you mean that her feelings for Peter were resolved after the rejection at the cemetary, no way. From her first scene in Spidey 2 it was clear she still had strong feelings for him. Harry even confirms it via his dialogue: "She's waiting for you.." Look at her reaction to Peter telling her he's going to her show- she's nearly in tears. Look at her excitement in the drssing room "You never know who might show up". And again- "I can't keep thinking about you- it's too painful" In what world does that represent resolved feelings?

if we are going by your analysis, she's always been chasing after that feeling she had with spiderman, which was recreated with pete at the end of the second film and not with john in the third.

spiderman first, pete second.

She hasn't been chasing the feeling with Spider-Man. She's looking for love.

She thought she might have found it with Spidey "I'm in love with someone else. Or at least I think I am". He's the first guy who does something for her without expecting anything in return.

Then she was sure she found it with Peter. He loved and supported her for who she was. Not as an object (Flash/Harry) or damsel in distress (Spidey). She maintained that feeling until her disappointment with Peter forced her (in her mind at least) to accept John's proposal. But the failed kiss proved to her that she didn't feel as strongly for John as Peter.

If there was any feeling on MJ's behalf for Spider-Man outside of Peter, she could have, would have sought him out.

 

[Dragon]

the thing is that you may say it was overdoing it but they pretty much did the same thing in the last film.

when parker first realised he was getting his powers, something dropped off mj's tray, he caught it and didn't realise how.

now when harry drops his vase, he catches it and the ball in a similar manner and doesn't know how it's done.

to hightlight the relationship between these two scenes, the former is shown to jog people's memories that it occured in the first film.

same goes for the upside down kiss to contrast with the events in this film...

actually the upside down kiss is also highlighted by alex ross in the second film to jog people's memories about it to contrast with mj's kiss with john.

You are normally more vigilant that this dragon, the opening scene recap in both sequels have always been specifically used to refresh the crowd for events about to happen. I dont see how you've missed this in not only the first sequel but in both sequels.

Yeah..

I meant if they used the Ross shot IN THE SCENE. Of course I know it was presented in the opening credits.

As for the Harry catch vs. Peter- that's not the same. They wanted to make it clear that despite his amnesia, Harry retained his super powers, and to establish the threat of his memory returning.

In the case of the kiss- again- simpling presenting the upside down kiss was a strong enough visual clue to understand what MJ was going for. There was nothing special visually about the cemetary kiss but for it being the first time that MJ kisses Peter. If Raimi wanted to compare MJ's feelings for John and Peter there was no more direct method to do it. The upside down kiss was one of the most striking images from Spidey 1. It was even referenced in other media. This is why, if anything, the kiss is included in Spidey 3. They could have easily had Spidey land and kiss Gwen.

 

[November Rain]

i never said anything about alex ross art being used in the scene, i said in the beginning sequence

 

[Dragon]

i never said anything about alex ross art being used in the scene, i said in the beginning sequence

A misunderstanding Ms. Rain

 

[November Rain]

that's mr lapdog actually..



edit: sorry but i'll have to get back to your other points at another time, most likely tomorrow. these conversations take up time. what happened to the days of short replies?



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