The Atheism Thread - Part 6

[Flint Marko]

Now that Cosmos has aired, what were your thoughts?

I really enjoyed it. I learned quite a bit. The whole 'cosmic calendar' thing really put things in perspective.

 

[Gr0oT]

It's fun that it's being aired on Fox, if there is a target audience that needs some enlightenment...

 

[Hobgoblin]

An interesting thing that was pointed out to me.

Isaiah 41: 21-24
“Present your case,” says the Lord.
“Set forth your arguments,” says Jacob’s King.
22 “Tell us, you idols,
what is going to happen.
Tell us what the former things were,
so that we may consider them
and know their final outcome.
Or declare to us the things to come,
23 tell us what the future holds,
so we may know that you are gods.
Do something, whether good or bad,
so that we will be dismayed and filled with fear.
24 But you are less than nothing
and your works are utterly worthless;
whoever chooses you is detestable.


Luke 4:12

You shall not test the Lord your god.

 

[KevanG]

So basically 'Put up or shut up'?

 

[Hobgoblin]

Yes, but only for other gods....

 

[KevanG]

Prove you're a god or get out. Sounds reasonable.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

That "shall not test" riggamaroll has always irked the crap out of me. Neeson speaks to a certain extent for me when he starts crying out in THE GREY.

 

[KevanG]

"Don't test God!" Well why not? If he made us, then he made us to be curious. So he can't get pissy because we're pestering him and trying to analyze him.

 

[Hobgoblin]

I always assumed that "made in God's image" referred to human intelligence. So basically, God made us the most intelligent creature on the planet, but we shouldn't use that intelligence in any ways he doesn't like. Never mind the medical breakthroughs that our questioning has brought about.

 

[Thundercrack85]

I always assumed that "made in God's image" referred to human intelligence. So basically, God made us the most intelligent creature on the planet, but we shouldn't use that intelligence in any ways he doesn't like. Never mind the medical breakthroughs that our questioning has brought about.

I would think so. I'm curious what a literalist would say on that.

 

[Hobgoblin]

I would think so. I'm curious what a literalist would say on that.

Especially since God was the one that created cancer, smallpox, plague, polio, cholera, ebola, malaria, the flu, and AIDS. I guess we were just supposed to accept these pestilences quietly and not follow up on possible cures.

 

[MrsKent26]

"Don't test God!" Well why not? If he made us, then he made us to be curious. So he can't get pissy because we're pestering him and trying to analyze him.

Shhh!

If we test God, it will only prove that nothing out of the ordinary will happen when we do so and therefore he doesn't exist!

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

So... About COSMOS... Seeing as it airs on FOX, I assume that the FOX NEWS channel will hold their ire over the section about Bruno and the whole Catholic Church gets the Roman authorities to burn people over what they think thing, but I am surprised no one else has caused a stir. Did anyone see NDT on COLBERT? He has a great way of handling these issues I think. It's not too blunt or confrontational, however he doesn't give an inch either.

 

[Gr0oT]

"Don't test God!" Well why not? If he made us, then he made us to be curious. So he can't get pissy because we're pestering him and trying to analyze him.

That's part of the test of faith young grasshopper, being given the gift of reason but having the obedience not to use it.

Especially since God was the one that created cancer, smallpox, plague, polio, cholera, ebola, malaria, the flu, and AIDS. I guess we were just supposed to accept these pestilences quietly and not follow up on possible cures.

That is just a test of faith o doubtful one it is not for you to question His callous ways.

Even the most vile of occurrences such as the kidnapping, torture, rape and murder of toddlers is all part of His design or it wouldn't happen!
There is no light without darkness!
Another lamb of God slaughtered to remind you of the strength of prayer!

So... About COSMOS... Seeing as it airs on FOX, I assume that the FOX NEWS channel will hold their ire over the section about Bruno and the whole Catholic Church gets the Roman authorities to burn people over what they think thing, but I am surprised no one else has caused a stir. Did anyone see NDT on COLBERT? He has a great way of handling these issues I think. It's not too blunt or confrontational, however he doesn't give an inch either.

NDT, as you call him, has a very eloquent touch.
Not as abrasive as a Dawkins or a Hitchens, the kid gloves might be important to use for those on the cusp of enlightenment?

 

[Hobgoblin]

Even the most vile of occurrences such as the kidnapping, torture, rape and murder of toddlers is all part of His design or it wouldn't happen!
There is no light without darkness!
Another lamb of God slaughtered to remind you of the strength of prayer!

Interesting.

It reminds me of this passage:

21 When Jesus had again crossed over by boat to the other side of the lake, a large crowd gathered around him while he was by the lake. 22 Then one of the synagogue rulers, named Jairus, came there. Seeing Jesus, he fell at his feet 23 and pleaded earnestly with him, "My little daughter is dying. Please come and put your hands on her so that she will be healed and live." 24 So Jesus went with him. A large crowd followed and pressed around him. 25 And a woman was there who had been subject to bleeding for twelve years. 26 She had suffered a great deal under the care of many doctors and had spent all she had, yet instead of getting better she grew worse. 27 When she heard about Jesus, she came up behind him in the crowd and touched his cloak, 28 because she thought, "If I just touch his clothes, I will be healed." 29 Immediately her bleeding stopped and she felt in her body that she was freed from her suffering. 30 At once Jesus realized that power had gone out from him. He turned around in the crowd and asked, "Who touched my clothes?" 31 "You see the people crowding against you," his disciples answered, "and yet you can ask, 'Who touched me?' " 32 But Jesus kept looking around to see who had done it. 33 Then the woman, knowing what had happened to her, came and fell at his feet and, trembling with fear, told him the whole truth. 34 He said to her, "Daughter, your faith has healed you. Go in peace and be freed from your suffering."

Mark 5:21-34 (English Standard Version)

Let me tell a little about my family. My aunt and uncle had 6 kids, three boys and three girls. The boys were all badly mentally challenged and had several physical disabilities. Two of them have passed on. Even though they all lived into middle age, they were basically children. I never saw it, but apparently they also suffered from psychosis and could be quite scary.

My aunt and uncle are both deeply religious people. My aunt sang in the choir and is very knowledgeable in Catholic rituals. I have no doubt that she spent countless hours in prayer over the years for her sons. Where was God's healing, in return for her faith? Her sons couldn't pray for themselves, so she did it for them. Why would God make a point that faith can heal sickness and then not follow through with His own point?

 

[KevanG]

That's part of the test of faith young grasshopper, being given the gift of reason but having the obedience not to use it.

Meh, faith smaith. I want some concrete evidence before I start calling anyone a god. After all we aren't supposed to worship false/other gods/idols so without some sort of evidence how could you prove it one way or another?

If they have an issue with that then too bad. Don't make your instructions so contradictory.

 

[MrsKent26]

Meh, faith smaith. I want some concrete evidence before I start calling anyone a god. After all we aren't supposed to worship false/other gods/idols so without some sort of evidence how could you prove it one way or another?

If they have an issue with that then too bad. Don't make your instructions so contradictory.

Whoa, I dig this post.

This is pretty profound, actually. Well said.

 

[KevanG]

I've just never found the need to be religious. I find that the more we know the less we need gods as we become our own gods. We'll never likely find out what happens after we die or conquer death and I'm okay with that. I don't mean become our own gods as in worship ourselves or each other but as we move away from the need to have a higher power that's supposed to be watching us and we mature enough to understand that if there's life after death or not, it doesn't matter. What we do here is what matters, not for any reason beyond it's what's right and not for any reason that some force might punish us like a disapproving parent.

 

[MrsKent26]

I've just never found the need to be religious. I find that the more we know the less we need gods as we become our own gods. We'll never likely find out what happens after we die or conquer death and I'm okay with that. I don't mean become our own gods as in worship ourselves or each other but as we move away from the need to have a higher power that's supposed to be watching us and we mature enough to understand that if there's life after death or not, it doesn't matter. What we do here is what matters, not for any reason beyond it's what's right and not for any reason that some force might punish us like a disapproving parent.

I completely agree and that's exactly how I feel about it. Makes perfect sense to me.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

I think a big fear, yes FEAR that the religious, which is to say those of the Abrahamic faiths, have about a life with no GOD in it, really comes down to a fear of the depths of human nature. And there is a part of that I kind of see the point in. They want to have an all seeing and knowing deity because it creates a mental/spiritual/emotional order for every day living. Without a GOD to ensure some kind of order and justice, to lay down some kind of moral viewpoint, they think all would be chaos and people deciding right and wrong for themselves would overturn ALL morality. And I'm talking everything here, not just the usual social conservative stuff. There's a fear that mankind would just start to rationalize any behavior. Rape, murder, slavery, cannibalism... and I can see their point to a degree. We are all, as individuals and a species pretty damned good at doing our worst and telling ourselves it's no big deal. Having an unquestionable, all powerful judge and setter of standards was a damn helpful tool for our ancestors.


For myself though, I don't think that is an absolute deal. I disliked Morrison's work in general, doubly so because he often has some great insights into the characters he is writing. Despite that dislike I often find myself quoting Luthor from that last issue of ALL STAR. We are all alone in this universe, and we are all connected. We are all we have.

In a universe where we have no GOD to turn to as an ultimate bringer of justice and lawgiver nor someone who will reward acts of kindness and compassion and empathy, we need to be kind, compassionate and empathetic more than ever. In a life without a universal adjudicator the subject of justice, and how to make sure it is applied correctly is of the utmost importance. A world view without GOD is not a license for anarchy. It is in fact a call to greater self control and self reflection. It is a call for greater compassion and a search for "good".

 

[Gr0oT]

Interesting.

It reminds me of this passage:

Mark 5:21-34 (English Standard Version)

Let me tell a little about my family. My aunt and uncle had 6 kids, three boys and three girls. The boys were all badly mentally challenged and had several physical disabilities. Two of them have passed on. Even though they all lived into middle age, they were basically children. I never saw it, but apparently they also suffered from psychosis and could be quite scary.

My aunt and uncle are both deeply religious people. My aunt sang in the choir and is very knowledgeable in Catholic rituals. I have no doubt that she spent countless hours in prayer over the years for her sons. Where was God's healing, in return for her faith? Her sons couldn't pray for themselves, so she did it for them. Why would God make a point that faith can heal sickness and then not follow through with His own point?

You always end up getting stonewalled whatever your argument is when God is concerned. Something as tragic as your family would be 'explained' with an anecdote like God works in mysterious ways or some nastier believer might go so low as to argue that it is some sort of divine reckoning for something someone in your family did a hundred years ago.

The thing that bugs me though is that although I wholeheartedly disagree with faith I have an understand that people will never lose it, it is a self replicating virus and the host it inhabits needs it.

It would be cruel for me to try and take faith away from someone who say, just lost a child. Because for them without their faith and without being assured that there is a heaven that the child has gone to and where they can reunite with the child when their time comes... Without that they fall apart.

Meh, faith smaith. I want some concrete evidence before I start calling anyone a god. After all we aren't supposed to worship false/other gods/idols so without some sort of evidence how could you prove it one way or another?

If they have an issue with that then too bad. Don't make your instructions so contradictory.

I see what you're saying, but that is the brilliance of the faith concept.
You try to use that line of reasoning with any believer and they'll simply pity you because to them their belief isn't something that can be measured, it's something that is felt and is known to be true.
People are indoctrinated into the system that has powerful fail safes.

I have Greek friends, extremely Christian and if I try to explain to them that if they were born during the times of Ancient Greece they'd have fully believed in polytheism and they just get contrary with me.

 

[KevanG]

If anyone calls themselves a god then I'll just quote Yoda and tell them I want a flower.

 

[MrsKent26]

A flower? I want $1 million. That would make me a believer.

 

[Gr0oT]

I think a big fear, yes FEAR that the religious, which is to say those of the Abrahamic faiths, have about a life with no GOD in it, really comes down to a fear of the depths of human nature. And there is a part of that I kind of see the point in. They want to have an all seeing and knowing deity because it creates a mental/spiritual/emotional order for every day living. Without a GOD to ensure some kind of order and justice, to lay down some kind of moral viewpoint, they think all would be chaos and people deciding right and wrong for themselves would overturn ALL morality. And I'm talking everything here, not just the usual social conservative stuff. There's a fear that mankind would just start to rationalize any behavior. Rape, murder, slavery, cannibalism... and I can see their point to a degree. We are all, as individuals and a species pretty damned good at doing our worst and telling ourselves it's no big deal. Having an unquestionable, all powerful judge and setter of standards was a damn helpful tool for our ancestors.


For myself though, I don't think that is an absolute deal. I disliked Morrison's work in general, doubly so because he often has some great insights into the characters he is writing. Despite that dislike I often find myself quoting Luthor from that last issue of ALL STAR. We are all alone in this universe, and we are all connected. We are we have.

In a universe where we have no GOD to turn to as an ultimate bringer of justice and lawgiver nor someone who will reward acts of kindness and compassion and empathy, we need to be kind, compassionate and empathetic more than ever. In a life without a universal adjudicator the subject of justice, and how to make sure it is applied correctly is of the utmost importance. A world view without GOD is not a license for anarchy. It is in fact a call to greater self control and self reflection. It is a call for greater compassion and a search for "good".

These presumptions show the weakness of belief in the human animals morality without the shackles of religion and implies that for the biggest believers if all a sudden it was made clear there is no god that all a sudden they'd be prone to bouts of rape, murder and general anarchy, which is frightening.

When you counter that the reason why Abrahamic faiths snowballed like they did was because of all the blood that was spilled spreading it many times they'll turn around and say the greatest monster were atheist.

Men like Mao, Hitler, Stalin.
Those men weren't atheist, those men were megalomaniacs that perceived themselves as gods.
They weren't pursuing some atheistic agenda of wiping out all faiths, they just structured themselves on the tenets of the major faiths... If they are to be the supreme rulers then of course there is room for nothing else.

 

[enterthemadness]

If anyone calls themselves a god then I'll just quote Yoda and tell them I want a flower.

You rang and no flower.