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The Atheism Thread - Part 7

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The flood myth is widespread, and the idea that God punishes people through natural disasters, adversity in general, was widespread.

It's an ancient understanding of terrible events. But sadly a lot of people still interpret circumstances like disease as divine retribution. You can't live that way.
 
We have a global warming thread here on the Hype, which is suffused with frightening ignorance and frustrating displays of wishful thinking.

It led me to wonder how direct the correlation between evolution denial and global warming denial was. Any thoughts?
 
We have a global warming thread here on the Hype, which is suffused with frightening ignorance and frustrating displays of wishful thinking.

It led me to wonder how direct the correlation between evolution denial and global warming denial was. Any thoughts?

I would say it's a safe bet that anyone who denies evolution will also deny global warming. If a god created and has a plan for each and every one of us, then he wouldn't have created an earth that we could and would destroy. The Bible says that god created everything for us, for our use and that we are superior to creatures and the environment. With that thinking, anything we do to the environment is all part of the plan. God would not have given us fossils to burn if they would end up destroying the planet.

As for the other way around, I'm not sure global warming deniers would necessarily deny evolution outright, but they're likely not educated as to how evolution works and could probably easily be swayed to deny it as well.
 
There are video clips on youtube of politicians and people in washington saying global warming is a farce. That God created this earth and gave us dominion over it. That we couldnt possibly be hurting the environment.

Delusion and faith will go hand in hand, two by two...right off the cliff.
 
As for the other way around, I'm not sure global warming deniers would necessarily deny evolution outright, but they're likely not educated as to how evolution works and could probably easily be swayed to deny it as well.
One of the more outspoken skeptics of AGW/ACC theory claims to believe in evolution, but has more than once demonstrated a deficiency in his/her understanding of it.
 
I rrally dont understand how its deniable at all even considering the bible's claims. Im only 23, but have lived in the same area my entire life and in my lifetime Ive seen a drastic change in my local weather. Tornados used to be non existent in my area, but in the past five years weve had at least one every summer. Seasons have changed too.

For people who are in their 50s and 60s should be able to see these changes better than me. Our weather has changed a lot in the past fifty years.
 
I rrally dont understand how its deniable at all even considering the bible's claims. Im only 23, but have lived in the same area my entire life and in my lifetime Ive seen a drastic change in my local weather. Tornados used to be non existent in my area, but in the past five years weve had at least one every summer. Seasons have changed too.

For people who are in their 50s and 60s should be able to see these changes better than me. Our weather has changed a lot in the past fifty years.
The typical response to that is "but it's cold here right now! So how can there be global warmin? Ha ha science, you aint gonna trick me!

Unfortunately, like a lot of science deniers, they don't understand how it works so they will gleefully buy into any attempt to disprove it.
 
I rrally dont understand how its deniable at all even considering the bible's claims. Im only 23, but have lived in the same area my entire life and in my lifetime Ive seen a drastic change in my local weather. Tornados used to be non existent in my area, but in the past five years weve had at least one every summer. Seasons have changed too.

For people who are in their 50s and 60s should be able to see these changes better than me. Our weather has changed a lot in the past fifty years.

Don't you know the rate of sinning per person has increased since the 50s, hence God is putting his judgement upon us with all this bad weather. And their is no more big sinners then in South Eastern USA.
 
The typical response to that is "but it's cold here right now! So how can there be global warmin? Ha ha science, you aint gonna trick me!

Unfortunately, like a lot of science deniers, they don't understand how it works so they will gleefully buy into any attempt to disprove it.

I get that response a lot. Im just a laymen in weather science but I try to explain that global warming doesnt mean it gets sweltering hot everywhere. The earth isnt one uniform temperature. If you change temperature in just one section you can throw everything off. Cold areas will still be cold, but they will be ten degrees warmer and that ten degrees difference is the difference between the ice caps freezing and melting and that has massive effects on the weather.

Whats really sad is even if a monster hurricane that broke the scale hit us these fools would say it was god's wrath and has zero to do with climate change. It really makes me sad for my whole damn species.
 
Don't you know the rate of sinning per person has increased since the 50s, hence God is putting his judgement upon us with all this bad weather. And their is no more big sinners then in South Eastern USA.

Oh God, that really is what some people think, isn't it?
 
Don't you know the rate of sinning per person has increased since the 50s, hence God is putting his judgement upon us with all this bad weather. And their is no more big sinners then in South Eastern USA.

We are approaching a quantum sin-gularity.

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So a prophecy said that we'd learn more as time went on? That is so freaking obvious it's beyond common sense. That's as much a divine prophecy as cooking a pizza and saying there will be cheese on it.

Mans laws today? Like don't kill each other? Don't steal? Things that have been considered commonplace since we were cavemen? Things that even animals don't like to happen?

These prophecies you insist on telling us are happening have been attributed to thousands of various things over the millennia and will continue to be attributed to things for years to come. Look at those saying the recent 'blood moon' was a foretelling of the end times. It's in the bible too! Hey, look at this! It tells you how often it happens throughout the centuries.

Well look at that. It says it's a regular astrological occurrence. That's not much of a prophecy if it's not something special beyond not happening that often. We can even chart how often it will happen and within a few days centuries on advance. Which one will the end times happen on?

The bible is relevant as a basic moral aid when not taken as literal truth.
Unfortunately it went right over your head as per the "knowledge will increase." This was a prophecy for the latter days, not throughout the last couple of millennia. And just as you said, there has been a huge increase in knowledge over the last century as compared to about 2,000 years prior. Again, this is with my suggestion that we are in the last days.

As per the Bible and today's society, like I said, it fits in (and that's regardless of how long it has been fitting in for). In other words, it's not just a book that is outdated.

As per the prophecies you said that have been used many times before... well, as I mentioned in the before, they could never have happened in the past 2,000 years or more (depending on when they were written) as Israel needed to be a nation for the end times to begin and this only happened in 1948.
 
Do you have any type of physical evidence whatsoever to back up any portion of these claims?
 
There will never be physical evidence to support any of that.
 
Unfortunately it went right over your head as per the "knowledge will increase." This was a prophecy for the latter days, not throughout the last couple of millennia. And just as you said, there has been a huge increase in knowledge over the last century as compared to about 2,000 years prior. Again, this is with my suggestion that we are in the last days.

As per the Bible and today's society, like I said, it fits in (and that's regardless of how long it has been fitting in for). In other words, it's not just a book that is outdated.

As per the prophecies you said that have been used many times before... well, as I mentioned in the before, they could never have happened in the past 2,000 years or more (depending on when they were written) as Israel needed to be a nation for the end times to begin and this only happened in 1948.

I bet you that by the end of this century it won't have happened. Or the next or the next.

How about those times in the bible that jesus said he'd be back within the generation he left? I did some checking and as per the original translation meaning it didn't mean 'race' like some interpretations try to say but a literal generation so under a century at the latest. Matthew 16:28 24:34 and 23:36, Luke 9:27 21:32

That didn't happen. Unless no one noticed. :huh:
 
Do you have any type of physical evidence whatsoever to back up any portion of these claims?
If you read anything I said, then you would know that in regards to the end times, it is simply my belief/suggestion that we are in the end times. This is the only thing I've said (to my memory) that I "believe" I could be wrong about but unlike you, I've seen enough evidence for the Bible as being true to where I will take the end times prophecies as something serious. For me, I'd rather be wrong for considering the biblical end time scriptures than ignoring them and be wrong.
 
I bet you that by the end of this century it won't have happened. Or the next or the next.

How about those times in the bible that jesus said he'd be back within the generation he left? I did some checking and as per the original translation meaning it didn't mean 'race' like some interpretations try to say but a literal generation so under a century at the latest. Matthew 16:28 24:34 and 23:36, Luke 9:27 21:32

That didn't happen. Unless no one noticed. :huh:
Without the spirit of God, how can you know scripture? But for those who are interested, the generation that is to see the end times did not have to be the generation that Jesus spoke to. The simple idea is that it would be a generation that would see all those "end time" things. For example, Matthew 24:19 tells us about terrible times in "those days" which could be a reference to the soon future back then or it could be a yet future time thousands of years later.
 
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Yeah, something along those lines. I just don't blindly follow the readings of the established scientific community. There have been numerous times in the past where scientific dogma were overthrown by newer and more radical researches. Maybe we haven't figured out all the answers yet and we are basing our knowledge on guesses. Again, I am not saying that's exactly the case of our evolution. I am just keeping my mind open to the possibilities.

When new paradigms are introduced into scientific thought they are derived from evidence. The theory of evolution is heavily supported by available evidence. Every biologist in the world has it in their interest to be the one to somehow take down the theory of evolution. Doing so would mean a great amount of fame and potentially fortune. The theory of evolution, like all scientific theories, is under constant scrutiny and it continues to hold up in the face of new evidence and constant challenges.

Science is all about keeping an open mind, but not so open it falls out.

Also rarely are scientific paradigms "thrown out" but rather refined, added to and corrected.

Just look at how models of the atom have changed in the last 150 years. None of them have been exactly "wrong" but rather incomplete. We've moved from the conception of little particles, to an understanding that those particles are made of smaller particles, to an understanding that even those particles are made of smaller particles. The classic symbol for an atom of a nucleus surrounding by rings of electron orbits has been replaced instead by a nucleus surrounded by "probability clouds" spaces where electrons are mostly likely to be. The idea of the ringed orbits remains a useful visualization for teaching how co-valent bonds and such work, but we know know that those rings are not the most accurate representation. These things are refined. The concept of the atom has not been thrown out because it is supported by systematically collected evidence.
 
Without the spirit of God, how can you know scripture? But for those who are interested, the generation that is to see the end times did not have to be the generation that Jesus spoke to. The simple idea is that it would be a generation that would see all those "end time" things. For example, Matthew 24:19 tells us about terrible times in "those days" which could be a reference to the soon future back then or it could be a yet future time thousands of years later.

Without an understanding of linguistics and historical context, how can you know scripture?

The bible "fits in" to society because it is constantly re-created. People tend to derive from it exactly the meanings they are looking for, through translation, interpretation, and selectivity of emphasis.
 
I'd like to see ANY sort of actual evidence that it's the end times before I'd be convinced of it.

Why is everyone so crazy for the end times anyway? The devil takes over, billions die through various means, non-christians get to burn in hell if they don't like it as there's no chance to repent after it starts and everyone else gets to live happily ever after? Yeah, that sounds great. :whatever:

Sounds more like the OT than anything else. The loving and caring god is taken away and only if you worship the 'right' god then you get saved. What about the jews who follow the Torah? What about those that follow Mohammed? What about those that are great people that are better people than 99% of the planet but don't follow your religion? It says all will be judged at that time. What if the masses of people say "Why not them too? Why can't my brother come with me as he is a good man but made mistakes during his life and you've judged him unworthy?" Why wouldn't people just leave him because they don't want to be part of that?

There's no choice, no option to continue, just heaven or hell. That means that we as a species cannot continue as we are. We get forced into whatever role is chosen for us or we get to burn. That is the mark of a despot. "You do as we say and you'll be fine. You get all sorts of nice things, you get to be happy and safe. If you go against me though and don't follow me exactly then you get tortured and burned forever."

The point I make is that if there is a creator god then everything we've ever done is pointless as he's been pushing us along a path he wants so nothing we've ever done is our own. It's why I believe in evolution, besides the overwhelming evidence of fossil records and geology/archeology/ect. We've done all of this ourselves. No Gods. No Masters. Just us. We've made ourselves come from the trees and did everything to bring us to today. Every war, every murder, every death for any reason is our fault. Every invention, every bit of help we've given to others, every time we've loved, that's on us too. Anything else degrades us as a species.
 
As per the big bang and the Bible's comparison I've been mentioning from Job 9:8 and other scriptures, many believe the big bang is still going on today and perhaps this is why:



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What is the universe expanding into?

I am very confused about things my science book says about the expanding universe. Every book I have seen has defined the universe as "everything". If the universe is expanding what is it expanding into? It would have to expand into even more universe. I understand that the red spectra indicates that things are moving away from us but that is drifting not expanding, right? If you could help me to understand this, it would be appreciated. Thank you for your time.
This is a very good question which is not at all easy to give a satisfactory answer to! The first time I tried to write an answer to this, we got so many follow-up questions from people who were still confused that I decided to try to answer it again, this time much more comprehensively. The long explanation is below. However, if you just want a short answer, I'll say this: if the universe is infinitely big, then the answer is simply that it isn't expanding into anything; instead, what is happening is that every region of the universe, every distance between every pair of galaxies, is being "stretched", but the overall size of the universe was infinitely big to begin with and continues to remain infinitely big as time goes on, so the universe's size doesn't change, and therefore it doesn't expand into anything. If, on the other hand, the universe has a finite size, then it may be legitimate to claim that there is something "outside of the universe" that the universe is expanding into. However, because we are, by definition, stuck within the space that makes up our universe and have no way to observe anything outside of it, this ceases to be a question that can be answered scientifically. So the answer in that case is that we really don't know what, if anything, the universe is expanding into.
Now, for those of you who want a more comprehensive discussion:
Let me begin by saying that "expanding" isn't really the best word to describe what is happening to the universe, although that is the word that is often used - a word choice which I think leads to a lot of unnecessary confusion regarding what is already a difficult topic! A more accurate word for what the universe is doing might be "stretching".
The difference between "expanding" and "stretching", for me at least, is that an "expanding universe" conjures up an image where there is a bunch of galaxies floating through space, all of which started at some center point and are now moving away from that point at very fast speeds. Therefore, the collection of galaxies (which we call the "universe") is expanding, and it is certainly fair to ask what it is expanding into.
The current theories of the universe, however, tell us that this is not the picture we should have in mind at all. Instead, the galaxies are in some sense stationary - they do not move through space the way that a ball moves through the air. The galaxies simply sit there. However, as time goes on, the space between the galaxies "stretches", sort of like what happens when you take a sheet of rubber and pull at it on both ends. Although the galaxies haven't moved through space at all, they get farther away from each other as time goes on because the space in between them has been stretched.
Of course, when we think of space in everyday life, we don't think of it as something which is capable of stretching. Space, to us, just seems like something which is there, and which everything else in the universe exists within. But according to Einstein's theory of general relativity, space isn't really as simple as our common sense tells us. If we want to understand the actual way that the universe functions, we need to find some way to incorporate Einstein's ideas into our mental picture and imagine space as a more complicated entity which is capable of doing things like "bending" and "stretching".
To help us imagine this, a lot of people have come up with analogies for the universe in which space is represented by something more tangible. For example, there is the analogy with a sheet of rubber (or sometimes a balloon) that I mentioned above. My favorite analogy, though, involves imagining the universe as a gigantic blob of dough. Embedded in the dough are a bunch of raisins, spread throughout. The dough represents space, and the raisins represent the galaxies. (To the best of my knowledge, this analogy was originally proposed by Martin Gardner in his 1962 book Relativity for the Million.) We have no idea how big the dough is at this point - all we know is that it is very big, and we, sitting on some raisin somewhere inside it, are so far away from the "edge" that the edge can't possibly have any effect on us or on what we see.
Now, someone puts the dough in the oven and it begins to expand. The raisins move apart from each other, but relative to the dough they don't move at all - the same particles of dough that start off near a particular raisin will always be next to that raisin. That is what I meant when I said that the galaxies aren't really moving through space as the universe expands - here, the raisins aren't moving through the dough, but the distance between the raisins is still getting larger.

And so the Bible got this "stretching" correct it seems: It is worth getting our heads around the problem, because the stretching of space is actually biblical. In Isaiah 42:5 and 45:12 both state that God stretches out the heavens like a curtain.
 
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Basically it's a written explanation of stuff you already know that is common sense for anyone who has a basic grasp of the theory.
 
People have been predicting the ends of times since we came down from the trees and have been adapting the ancient text to suit their particular time period. All they need is some element within in the text to warp to their already made up perspectives.
 
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