The Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes - The ANIMATED SERIES is now set for 2011

[TheCorpulent1]

Those are some mighty mature-looking kids if it is. Maybe Iron Man is the teen Armored Adventures version under the helmet, but I doubt it.

 

[Web-Head408]

I already see this being better than that crapfest we got a few years ago that didn't even have Cap and IM on the team. At least this show's gonna have the three main members.

Count me in on it.

 

[RAMORE]

Those are some mighty mature-looking kids if it is. Maybe Iron Man is the teen Armored Adventures version under the helmet, but I doubt it.

I was focusing more on the continuity than a deage perse duh.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

I wouldn't expect tight continuity from any adaptation. Hell, it's hard enough to get tight continuity from the comics at this point. Expect changes. Hopefully they'll be minimized, but even if they're not it might still be cool. X-Men: Evolution, in spite of its wonky character ages and different storylines, is considered a decent show, if I'm not mistaken.

 

[Dread]

I agree withthe founding members thing my biggest issue with alot of these shows is randomly deaging characters and changing continutiy ie. xmen evolution.

I don't see that here. The youngest looking one from the preview art was Wasp, but then again, how old was Janet when she first appeared? Especially if we want to say 40+ years in real time is 13 in Marvel Time and I doubt Marvel wants to claim Wasp is, gasp, 35. I'd say 30 is a stretch. Which means she was likely in her early 20's at the beginning of her career.

At this point, I am amazed at the original founding roster and that we're getting a show at all. We have about 2 years to get more preview information to better gauge things.

At the least, I think Marvel is smelling DC losing influence on the airwaves, with BATMAN TEAM-UP looking like a dud, and are trying to get their animation acts together. I say it's about time.

I already see this being better than that crapfest we got a few years ago that didn't even have Cap and IM on the team. At least this show's gonna have the three main members.

Count me in on it.

This is what I mean by being better than A:UTS by default. Having a low bar is an advantage sometimes. I mean just look at how Bruce Timm struggles to top himself. Avengers as a TV show at least doesn't have that. It has some impatient and

 

[Dread]

I wouldn't expect tight continuity from any adaptation. Hell, it's hard enough to get tight continuity from the comics at this point. Expect changes. Hopefully they'll be minimized, but even if they're not it might still be cool. X-Men: Evolution, in spite of its wonky character ages and different storylines, is considered a decent show, if I'm not mistaken.

The history of the Avengers can be handled like a loose mythology for the series bible, but, yeah, one shouldn't expect panel-by-panel accuracy. I mean, JUSTICE LEAGUE was hardly that close to the comics, more akin to building from Timm's personal vision and going with iconic versions.

The Avengers can look at the stories history and gear arcs towards the main beats, but expect changes. Heck, if Kingpin is stuck in the DD camp and wasn't allowed in SS-M, then expecting Wanda & Pietro in this show by 2011 may be a stretch. That alone changes things a great deal. Thankfully, there are tons of great Avengers characters to choose from. So long as the history and personality of the character remain at the foundation, things should be good.

For example, while movies hate the "gamma bomb" origin, the mushroom cloud is a GREAT visual, and cartoons usually keep it for Hulk. Having a scheme of Loki form the team, Hank eventually building Ultron, the formation of the Masters of Evil (even the death of the original Baron Zemo), these all can be woven in with more mature and timely pacing. That's what I want.

 

[Hypestyle]

get Paul Dini & Bruce Timm to moonlight under a pseudonym..



wanted guests
Luke Cage
Blade
Falcon
Photon/Pulsar
Iceman
Spider-Man
Cloak & Dagger

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Yeah, I'd like major plot elements to be brought over largely unchanged. Loki should be the motivating factor for the team's creation, Hank should build Ultron, Wonder Man, the Black Knight, and the Vision should be villains who defect to the Avengers, Kang needs to make plenty of appearances, etc.

I also think Hank and Jan should have some kind of falling out and Hank should leave in disgrace, only to come back to save the day later on. They could kiddify it a bit by leaving out the domestic violence and making Hank be under some kind of mind control (which is actually close to the comic version anyway, since he was having a mental breakdown at the time).

 

[Dread]

get Paul Dini & Bruce Timm to moonlight under a pseudonym..



wanted guests
Luke Cage
Blade
Falcon
Photon/Pulsar
Iceman
Spider-Man
Cloak & Dagger

Dini wasn't exactly producing gold on his last few episodes of STATIC SHOCK and JLU.

As for the guests, some of them were never Avengers, and I'd probably prefer some other members before we bring in Luke Cage. Photon & Falcon could be cool at some point.

Yeah, I'd like major plot elements to be brought over largely unchanged. Loki should be the motivating factor for the team's creation, Hank should build Ultron, Wonder Man, the Black Knight, and the Vision should be villains who defect to the Avengers, Kang needs to make plenty of appearances, etc.

Indeed. Of course the biggest problem with Kang is his design; Timm & Co. embraced Silver Age designs, no matter how corny they were (see Dr. Polaris from the 4th season premire). Marvel cartoons haven't been as willing. The '99 series tried updating Kang's armor, but it looked very bulky and awkward. Hopefully some sort of compromise design can be reached. So long as Kang's helmet is recognizable and his color scheme is maintained, I can see some leeway.

I am shocked, SHOCKED that you would mention Black Knight. Kidding. Yeah, it would be good to see him. He was involved in the Avengers since the 60's, after all. His uncled was part of the Lethal Legion or Masters of Evil or whatever a few times.

But, yeah, so long as the core stories are the same, I don't mind alterations to the details.

I also think Hank and Jan should have some kind of falling out and Hank should leave in disgrace, only to come back to save the day later on. They could kiddify it a bit by leaving out the domestic violence and making Hank be under some kind of mind control (which is actually close to the comic version anyway, since he was having a mental breakdown at the time).

Hank isn't Hank if he isn't tormented. How far the cartoon goes depends on the censors and, frankly, on Yost & Co. I've seen TMNT get away with some intense ****, and that's on Fox's 4kids block. Kids' WB used to rewrite the rules all the time with Batman Beyond. There are ways to show a disfunctional relationship without wife-slapping, if they have to. But there are also ways to show it, or imply it, or get around it.

Hell, on Kid's WB, they used to show a shadow of young Bruce Wayne's parents laying dead at his feet before it would morph into the Bat-symbol to introduce Batman. It was shown on weekday afternoons and Saturday mornings. Where there is a will, there is a way.

My concern is that Yost hasn't been too willing to challange what most networks would accept in his Marvel DTV's in any catagory besides gore. I hope this is not a sign of things to come. TEEN TITANS sometimes did some intense stuff (one episode had Slade all but literally strip Raven's clothes off on screen and hold her from behind), but none of those were Cielio's episodes.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

I am shocked, SHOCKED that you would mention Black Knight. Kidding. Yeah, it would be good to see him. He was involved in the Avengers since the 60's, after all. His uncled was part of the Lethal Legion or Masters of Evil or whatever a few times.

He's been involved a lot more than that. Dane's time on the Avengers is almost as long as some of the team's big names. He just comes and goes a lot and tends to stick around during periods that weren't all that popular. If it were me, I'd make him a full-time member and leave him there, but I'm obviously biased.

 

[[A]]

I love who Ant-Man has a.. well, an ant, in his hand t: duh

 

[cerealkiller182]

He's been involved a lot more than that. Dane's time on the Avengers is almost as long as some of the team's big names. He just comes and goes a lot and tends to stick around during periods that weren't all that popular. If it were me, I'd make him a full-time member and leave him there, but I'm obviously biased.

Hes on MI-3 now, and I feel its more appropriate. Considering he left Excalibur for their lack of teamwork and MI-3 is an establish government agency I doubt he'd move (at least for the forseeable future)

 

[Jennifer Walters]

I hate the art style and Goth Wasp.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Hes on MI-3 now, and I feel its more appropriate. Considering he left Excalibur for their lack of teamwork and MI-3 is an establish government agency I doubt he'd move (at least for the forseeable future)

I'm happy with him on MI-13 too. I like his friendship with Captain Britain and he's always had one foot in Arthurian lore, so it's definitely appropriate.

 

[Dread]

He's been involved a lot more than that. Dane's time on the Avengers is almost as long as some of the team's big names. He just comes and goes a lot and tends to stick around during periods that weren't all that popular. If it were me, I'd make him a full-time member and leave him there, but I'm obviously biased.

Obviously.

What I usually liked about Black Knight was he blended fantasy with science, which I thought was interesting. Plus, he usually had some sort of sense of humor between hacking at bad guys, which is always nice.

Hopefully he gets at least one or two good guest stints on the show.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Yeah, hopefully. Hopefully the roster's also allowed to expand rather than staunchly sticking with the founders. I like the founders and all, but the Scarlet Witch, the Vision, Wonder Man, Hercules, and a few others have almost as much right to be on the team as the founders do at this point.

 

[Dread]

Yeah, hopefully. Hopefully the roster's also allowed to expand rather than staunchly sticking with the founders. I like the founders and all, but the Scarlet Witch, the Vision, Wonder Man, Hercules, and a few others have almost as much right to be on the team as the founders do at this point.

That's kind of like saying plenty of Justice Leaguers have a right to be on the roster as Batman, Superman, and Wonder Woman. It may be true, but we all know the lesson of stacking your Big Three on the bench. Cap, Thor, and Iron Man are who the casual audience want to see, and why not?

Hulk leaves the team early so he could always be like a reoccurring guest character and they could continue to rotate that spot for other members now and then. Plus, there are only 6, and most team shows have seven.

 

[Colossal Spoons]

Sign me up

 

[TheCorpulent1]

That's kind of like saying plenty of Justice Leaguers have a right to be on the roster as Batman, Superman, and Wonder Woman. It may be true, but we all know the lesson of stacking your Big Three on the bench. Cap, Thor, and Iron Man are who the casual audience want to see, and why not?

Hulk leaves the team early so he could always be like a reoccurring guest character and they could continue to rotate that spot for other members now and then. Plus, there are only 6, and most team shows have seven.

Who said anything about the big three leaving? I just want the ranks to expand to include more of the major Avengers than just the founders. You know how TV adaptations tend to want to stick to one consistent cast far more than the comics tend to. Look at the '90s X-Men cartoon, where they stuck to that specific cast so doggedly that even founding X-Men like Iceman and Archangel were reduced to tiny cameos. I don't want to see the Vision or Wonder Man end up that way. I want them on the team eventually, but alongside Cap, Thor, Iron Man, and the others, not replacing them.

 

[DOG LIPS]

Awesome, can't wait for this series. UTS just didn't cut it.

2011 is so far away.

 

[Dread]

Who said anything about the big three leaving? I just want the ranks to expand to include more of the major Avengers than just the founders. You know how TV adaptations tend to want to stick to one consistent cast far more than the comics tend to. Look at the '90s X-Men cartoon, where they stuck to that specific cast so doggedly that even founding X-Men like Iceman and Archangel were reduced to tiny cameos. I don't want to see the Vision or Wonder Man end up that way. I want them on the team eventually, but alongside Cap, Thor, Iron Man, and the others, not replacing them.

I see, and I think we are on the same page, as I mentioned how the roster has 6 members rather than the obligatory 7 for most teams, and Hulk easily could leave the official roster for many episodes since he never really was on the roster past Avengers #2 (although they remained involved in altercations with Hulk for a while afterward). There could always be episodes where Iron Man or Thor have to take off for some reason and another Avenger can fill in. JUSTICE LEAGUE and JLU had many episodes where Batman, Superman, and/or Wonder Woman were not present. Hell, they went an entire season without Flash (which sucked) beyond two token cameos. Due to the reasons I mentioned, the Avengers here have two spots to fill.

A good example of how to do what you seem to want actually comes from LOSH. As the show went along, characters like Cosmic Lad and others showed up more and more often to expand the general cast list. Of course, they overrelied on Superman, but that's another issue.

The biggest problem, though, is that neither Yost or Cieli (I almost never get the poor guy's name right) have come from shows that did not do that sort of thing well. Cieli's TEEN TITANS famously had Terra join the team in Season 2 but never included her to the main cast, creating the effect that she was a perennial guest star and thus dampening a lot of oopmh from her eventual betrayal. TEEN TITANS one could say is the poster child for the TV team dynamic you described; for better or worse, the core 5 were the core 5. No other member was allowed to enter for long to break up their cookie cutter dialogue, even when it made sense for it to have happened, such as with Terra.

Yost, having written for X-Men Evolution, has some experience with large rosters, as many characters appeared on that show, and by Season 2, a good half dozen mutants were added to the cast and would show up frequently. In some ways that was one of the hassles of Season 2, all those new characters competing for airtime with the stars. Boom-Boom of all people getting an episode devoted to her, that kind of thing. Yost wanted to have an "inclusive" universe in FANTASTIC FOUR: WGH, which had a string of guest appearences. They even snuck in Peter Parker, albeit on the sly. Hulk, She-Hulk (who joined the team for one episode), Iron Man, Ant-Man, and Namor all showed up. Granted, only Namor showed up twice, and both of his episodes were a bit predictable (especially after Aquaman's episodes in S:TAS and JL).

Vision popped up in NEXT AVENGERS and was among the highlights of that DTV, so there is some love for Vision I think.

See, right now my biggest fear is that neither Yost or Cieli have really been behind definitive, trend setting work. AVENGERS: EMH needs to be that kind of work. JL/U was incredible, but the idea of it being impossible to ever surpass that is both untrue and self defeating. It's Marvel for F's sake! Wanting to outdo DC was what led Stan Lee to creating the modern universe to begin with. Yost and Cieli have some decent work to be proud of, but none of it really would be on anyone's Top 10 list. Yost has worked on a number of DTV's where he doesn't have to worry about network censors as much, and aside for increased violence, the stories are hardly deeper than TV fare. He has talent and knowledge, but not that urge to battle the network for every single thing he wants to put in, and from my experience, the BEST shows push that envelope every single episode. B:TAS did. 2k3 TMNT for the first 4-5 seasons did. BATMAN BEYOND did. Timm took JL to CN to escape that sort of restriction. Until I really see something Yost works on raise the bar, I'll always be a little skeptical.

That said, he's no hack, and again, this series will be better than UTS and will be the best Avengers cartoon we've gotten. But that isn't enough to be excellent.

WOLVERINE AND THE X-MEN 5 episodes in is good, but it's no SPECTACULAR SPIDER-MAN. And it also, one could argue, sticks rigidly to certain characters.

Awesome, can't wait for this series. UTS just didn't cut it.

2011 is so far away.

At least it gives them over two years to get things right during the production phase.

Not only did UTS "not cut it", it was an animation abomination of mankind.

 

[Phatman]

That is the dilemma. The majority of our animation market is still geared towards children. The problem is there is more competition than existed even into the mid-late 90's. Note that even in 1997 or so, you still had to pay for Internet by the hour most times. Cable was still considered a luxury with fewer channels until the 21st century. Nowadays the computer, game systems, DL's, and more cable channels and easy access have virtually destroyed the network TV cartoon market. It made cartoons, which were always expensive to do well, too expensive to invest as much into. Hence looking for easy outs, such as overseas animation, steamlined designs, even FLASH animation via computer and of course anime dubbing.

That said, Saturday mornings still deliver enough ratings that at least 3-4 major networks still offer cartoons from 7 or 8:00 a.m. to Noon, albeit some of them, like Disney, just re-air stuff from cable.

The problem with cartoons, also, is that as they still rely on being geared towards children because merchandise covers a lot of costs and often is how profits are maintained. High toy sales are likely a good reason why the newest run of TMNT cartoons have lasted 7 seasons. But even the action figure market is slowing down because kids "grow up" faster and have more technology to play with. Back when I was a kid, it wasn't unheard of for kids to still be playing with action figures until age 11-12, which is deep into junior high. Nowadays, such kids would be considered "babies" and so the toys are ditched for the controllers more and more. I haven't looked at toy figures but I can't imagine they reach the hieghts of the 80's. Adults collect toys, but that can't make up for this gap. And since adults don't buy toys in droves, gearing cartoons for them, beyond prime time comedies, is usually seen as nil.

But, there still is hope. Both SPECTACULAR SPIDER-MAN and WOLVERINE AND THE X-MEN offer content that should please adults as well as kids; the latter is especially dark. So there's hope for AVENGERS: EMH to be geared properly. I am sure Yost & Ceilio likely are aware of the past failure of an Avengers show. Yost in particular in interviews usually knows his stuff. They know there is pressure to do it right; these sorts of opportunities only come around once a decade (or less). To drop the ball twice in a row would be unforgiveable. Still, like I said, it is hard to be worse than A:UTS. To me, that's the second worst comic book cartoon ever made (topped only by Superfriends, which refused to die and still taints network expectations for fluffy shows).

As for "nothing like Gargoyles ever again", I will say that Wiesman is off to a great start in SPECTACULAR SPIDER-MAN, and if you want some truly underrated comic cartoons, then the first 5 seasons of TMNT from 2002-2006 are some great stuff (which Wiesman also worked on for a while, as well as Yost and other writers). That entire span of over 100 episodes is truly an accomplishment. FAST FORWARD in 2007 bungled things, but they're trying to right the ship in '08.

I actually find it a GOOD SIGN that the roster shown are the founders. That is keeping with Avengers history. There's nothing barring The Hulk from becoming a "part timer" after the first few episodes and bringing in others like Black Panther, Vision, etc. Pym is there and through him come Ultron and Vision anyway (and if you want to be really faithful, Vision's brain patterns from the seemingly dead Wonder Man; one of the few things A:UTS tried to do right). JL/U didn't have every founding member appear in every episode and often had guest stints from B and C listers (B'WANNA BEAST for F's sake got an entire episode). There were tons of geek references in FANTASTIC FOUR: WGH, which Yost co-wrote.

There's potential here, even if it takes getting past some Disney HERCULES esque exaggerated character models.

I think this show is another step in the right direction for hand-drawn animated series too. TMNTand SSM was a turning point IMO in righting the ship. What I find is that kids and adults love more "adult" animated hows and hate it when a show is dumbed down. "Darker" more adult-themed stories actually do better in the ratings with kids and adults.

For me, the art design really isn't as important as the storytelling is. Whether it's the Kirbyesque Timm design of DCAU, The Bratz-esque style of SSM or thr photorealistic style of Gargoyles, a good story makes the viewer want to watch it over and over again. I don't mind the TF animated style designs, it's very colorful and unique.

Greg Weisman is a great writer and he adds a lot of depth to his characters in his storytelling. If he can write Hank and Jan's relationship with the complexity of Elisa and Goliath, this series will be awesome. I can't wait to see what he's going to do with Ultron. There's a lot of potential for Pym; his inferiority complex, his need to measure up to the other more powerful Avengers. The core founders had great personalities that contrasted one another. That's going to make for good storytelling. I have nothing but anticipation for this series. Now if the studios can do something about the crap distribution for these shows (Bringing them back as anchors for their Staurday morning lineups like TNBA and STAS) I see a light at the end of the tunnel for Hand-drawn animation. If Transformers Animated, TMNT and SSM were on the same channel, I'd have a reason to stay in on Saturday mornings

 

[spiderfan970]

There's potential here, even if it takes getting past some Disney HERCULES esque exaggerated character models.

At this point the Disney-style would be a godsend instead of these awkwardly drawn pictures...These designs make the show look like it's going to be cheaply flash animated or something.

It's so bad. I don't know how anybody is going to be able to animate them effectively, they've got so many weird lines and complex shapes.

...Even the font looks bad. Not the avengers part, that's fine..But the rest, looks like something akin to comic sans.

Like I said I can think of like ten or more guys doing nothing right now who should've gotten this job.

 

[Dread]

I think this show is another step in the right direction for hand-drawn animated series too. TMNTand SSM was a turning point IMO in righting the ship. What I find is that kids and adults love more "adult" animated hows and hate it when a show is dumbed down. "Darker" more adult-themed stories actually do better in the ratings with kids and adults.

Exactly. Kids don't like being talked down do, and don't see themselves as kids. All they want to be seen as is adults, even if they're not yet. Kids are exposed to more thing than we were and some people lament how they grow up too fast. Maybe. But it is what it is. I always roll my eyes when kids easily can see far worse things on WWE or the average PG-13 movie than a lot of cartoons. I recall being a kid in the 80's and rolling my eyes when Leonardo or Wolverine could never cut anything but robots. Virtually ignoring the cornball morality lessons.

Think of the best shows down the line and they are always the shows that pushed things, showed that maturity level.

For me, the art design really isn't as important as the storytelling is. Whether it's the Kirbyesque Timm design of DCAU, The Bratz-esque style of SSM or thr photorealistic style of Gargoyles, a good story makes the viewer want to watch it over and over again. I don't mind the TF animated style designs, it's very colorful and unique.

Art design can be gualling if you dislike it, but so far, the models in A:EMH don't look too bad. The only one that is iffy is Iron Man's helmet. Exaggerated designs are par for the course, and they don't look as extreme as some of the LOSH designs did in the early stages or Cheeks Galloway on SS-M.

Greg Weisman is a great writer and he adds a lot of depth to his characters in his storytelling. If he can write Hank and Jan's relationship with the complexity of Elisa and Goliath, this series will be awesome. I can't wait to see what he's going to do with Ultron. There's a lot of potential for Pym; his inferiority complex, his need to measure up to the other more powerful Avengers. The core founders had great personalities that contrasted one another. That's going to make for good storytelling. I have nothing but anticipation for this series. Now if the studios can do something about the crap distribution for these shows (Bringing them back as anchors for their Staurday morning lineups like TNBA and STAS) I see a light at the end of the tunnel for Hand-drawn animation. If Transformers Animated, TMNT and SSM were on the same channel, I'd have a reason to stay in on Saturday mornings

Greg Weisman is NOT involved in this show; he is the story editor behind SPECTACULAR SPIDER-MAN.

The people behind AVENGERS: EARTH'S MIGHTIEST HEROES so far are Chris Yost, who has worked on TMNT, THE BATMAN, X-MEN EVOLUTION, FANTASTIC FOUR: WGH and on the Lion's Gate DTV's, and Cieli (forgot the first name), who has worked on ROBOT CHICKEN and directed 9 episodes for the first two seasons of TEEN TITANS.

 

[Phatman]

Exactly. Kids don't like being talked down do, and don't see themselves as kids. All they want to be seen as is adults, even if they're not yet. Kids are exposed to more thing than we were and some people lament how they grow up too fast. Maybe. But it is what it is. I always roll my eyes when kids easily can see far worse things on WWE or the average PG-13 movie than a lot of cartoons. I recall being a kid in the 80's and rolling my eyes when Leonardo or Wolverine could never cut anything but robots. Virtually ignoring the cornball morality lessons.

Think of the best shows down the line and they are always the shows that pushed things, showed that maturity level.



Art design can be gualling if you dislike it, but so far, the models in A:EMH don't look too bad. The only one that is iffy is Iron Man's helmet. Exaggerated designs are par for the course, and they don't look as extreme as some of the LOSH designs did in the early stages or Cheeks Galloway on SS-M.



Greg Weisman is NOT involved in this show; he is the story editor behind SPECTACULAR SPIDER-MAN.

The people behind AVENGERS: EARTH'S MIGHTIEST HEROES so far are Chris Yost, who has worked on TMNT, THE BATMAN, X-MEN EVOLUTION, FANTASTIC FOUR: WGH and on the Lion's Gate DTV's, and Cieli (forgot the first name), who has worked on ROBOT CHICKEN and directed 9 episodes for the first two seasons of TEEN TITANS.

Sorry to hear he's not involved with this. But now i know why SSM is so good. A good story editor like him is worth more than platinum.

But the production teeam here sounds pretty good. TMNT X-men Evolutioin and the Batman (post Season One) were solid. I'm hoping they keep the action at a TMNT level.