The Confederate flag

[Kelly]

Should white Americans "pay" for the sins of the past?

Absolutely not.

Should they agree that some things done in the past were horrific and should never happen again?

I would hope so.

That point was brought up in my classes debate...

 

[Mad Ones]

Except the past always comes back to haunt, especially when things are assumed to be final. Slavery continues to haunt America because the conditions that created it continue to be ignored.

 

[Kelly]

That is an interesting point, can you elaborate on that....

What conditions do you think created slavery?

 

[Wylie Times]

Except the past always comes back to haunt, especially when things are assumed to be final. Slavery continues to haunt America because the conditions that created it continue to be ignored.

There are people actively trying to rewrite history to completely gloss over American slavery and downplay it's impact.

Part of the problem is that many of the people who hold on to the confederate flag romanticize or outright ignore history.

 

[DeadPresident]

Edit

 

[Mad Ones]

One major condition was biological determinism, which created race as separate categories of biological conditions (i.e. back then it was skull shape and size, and other physical, measurable qualities), instead of understanding race as a positioning on a more fluid spectrum. This gave some racial categories more humanity, and others were dehumanized, justifying slavery for many. Biological determinism still exists. Now race is categorized based off of genetic differences, but this same categorization still exists.

The novel Beloved really demonstrates how America is still haunted by slavery even after it was ended. It's a great book.

 

[DeadPresident]

This is an interesting debate. I think some people do see "racism" when they see the Confederate Flag, but that is not the symbol of racism in it's ultimate form. For me the symbol of 100% absolute racism is the Nazi Flag. That flag symbolizes evil. It symbolized the systematic imprisonment and annihilation of 6 million Jews. The Confederate Flag may have men like Jefferson Davis, Stonewall Jackson, Robert E. Lee and eventual KKK founder Nathan Bedford Forrest, but the men behind the Nazi flag make the Confederates look like sissies. Adolph Hitler, Heinreich Himmler, Joseph Goebbels, Herman Goring, Josef Mengele, Adolph Eichmann, Klaus Barbie......all 1,000 times more evil then the men who symbolized the Confederacy.

I do think the Confederate Flag does symbolize racism, but it's tame compared to the Swastika.

That's like playing down rape because it's not perceived to be as bad as murder.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

This is an interesting debate. I think some people do see "racism" when they see the Confederate Flag, but that is not the symbol of racism in it's ultimate form. For me the symbol of 100% absolute racism is the Nazi Flag. That flag symbolizes evil. It symbolized the systematic imprisonment and annihilation of 6 million Jews. The Confederate Flag may have men like Jefferson Davis, Stonewall Jackson, Robert E. Lee and eventual KKK founder Nathan Bedford Forrest, but the men behind the Nazi flag make the Confederates look like sissies. Adolph Hitler, Heinreich Himmler, Joseph Goebbels, Herman Goring, Josef Mengele, Adolph Eichmann, Klaus Barbie......all 1,000 times more evil then the men who symbolized the Confederacy.

I do think the Confederate Flag does symbolize racism, but it's tame compared to the Swastika.

Slavery was no walk in the park. Families were broken up. Women were raped. Food was worthy of animals. Punishments were inhumane. Work conditions were harsh. Hopeless long work days from the cradle to the grave. Some could argue that a quick death would be more merciful.

Both genocide and slavery are pretty damn evil.

 

[Thundercrack85]

Well, I'd love to respond to all that HH, but I have been officially warned for maliciously slandering Southerners and Germans. So yeah.

PM me if you want to discuss anything concerning the two.

 

[Wylie Times]

This is an interesting debate. I think some people do see "racism" when they see the Confederate Flag, but that is not the symbol of racism in it's ultimate form. For me the symbol of 100% absolute racism is the Nazi Flag. That flag symbolizes evil. It symbolized the systematic imprisonment and annihilation of 6 million Jews. The Confederate Flag may have men like Jefferson Davis, Stonewall Jackson, Robert E. Lee and eventual KKK founder Nathan Bedford Forrest, but the men behind the Nazi flag make the Confederates look like sissies. Adolph Hitler, Heinreich Himmler, Joseph Goebbels, Herman Goring, Josef Mengele, Adolph Eichmann, Klaus Barbie......all 1,000 times more evil then the men who symbolized the Confederacy.

I do think the Confederate Flag does symbolize racism, but it's tame compared to the Swastika.

Wow, not sure how I missed this post.

You REALLY need to read more into what actually went on during American Slavery. This is exactly what some posters were talking about when saying most people don't know the actual facts surrounding American slavery.

American slavery lasted for nearly 300 yrs.

That's 300 years of beatings, mutilation, rape, and torture. Damn near every horrible the Nazi's did to Jews was done to blacks during American slavery.

The confederate flag is a symbol that represents men who fought to DEFEND that system.

 

[Dr. Evil]

I'm surprised that the Tea Party didn't adopt the Confederate Flag as the symbol.

 

[Dr. Evil]

Wow, not sure how I missed this post.

You REALLY need to read more into what actually went on during American Slavery. This is exactly what some posters were talking about when saying most people don't know the actual facts surrounding American slavery.

American slavery lasted for nearly 300 yrs.

That's 300 years of beatings, mutilation, rape, and torture. Damn near every horrible the Nazi's did to Jews was done to blacks during American slavery.

The confederate flag is a symbol that represents men who fought to DEFEND that system.

I meant from a global perspective, which was something I should have made a lot clearer. Unless a foreigner knows a lot about US history, they see the Confederate Flag and it means nothing to them. That same foreigner sees a Nazi flag at a Neo-Nazi rally in Europe and feels differently.

I don't know how the other countries dealt with Slavery, but nothing in South America or Africa represents "slavery" as much as the Confederate Flag does to America.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

I'm surprised that the Tea Party didn't adopt the Confederate Flag as the symbol.

They're crazy, not stupid.

 

[Dr. Evil]

They're crazy, not stupid.

But aren't they perceived as racists?

 

[Kelly]

They're crazy, not stupid.

I have several friends that are members of a Dallas based Tea Party group and a few here in Houston as well...

They are neither crazy or stupid. They simply want heavy tax reform, to a flat tax or similar, and I'm not sure that they own anything with the Confederate Flag on it. I've gone to a couple of rallies, just to see what was going on, no one seemed all that crazy, don't remember seeing any Confederate Flags, but I could have missed them. I did however see tons of American Flags, and Don't Tread On Me flags.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

But aren't they perceived as racists?

Most politically active people know how divisive the confederate flag is.

It wouldn't be smart to scare potential allies away with a controversial flag.

 

[hippie_hunter]

Well, I'd love to respond to all that HH, but I have been officially warned for maliciously slandering Southerners and Germans. So yeah.

PM me if you want to discuss anything concerning the two.

Hey, I'm game for a deep discussion through PM. When Alex the Great was banned in the political forums, he'd respond to posts I made through PMs to make a point to counter mine.

 

[Kelly]

Well, I'd love to respond to all that HH, but I have been officially warned for maliciously slandering Southerners and Germans. So yeah.

PM me if you want to discuss anything concerning the two.

It wasn't the specifics that you used that got the warning, it was the general usage of Southerners (which I am one) and Germans (which I'm sure we have several that are of German heritage). Just be smarter and as you use specific examples, do the same when talking about the groups. Neo-nazis, KKK, etc. That's all....you know who they are, why be lazy and and go with just Southerners and Germans?

 

[Thundercrack85]

It wasn't the specifics that you used that got the warning, it was the general usage of Southerners (which I am one) and Germans (which I'm sure we have several that are of German heritage). Just be smarter and as you use specific examples, do the same when talking about the groups. Neo-nazis, KKK, etc. That's all....you know who they are, why be lazy and and go with just Southerners and Germans?

Okay. We'll just pretend there isn't an issue in tackling slavery and its legacy in the modern-day Southern United States, so no one is offended.

Also, I was clearly referring to Germany in the mid 20th century, during Nazi times, so... I strongly doubt that would offend any Germans who post here.

 

[Lead Cenobite]

I don't think everyone who waves the confederate flag are racists, and meanings change over time. Like that one bit by George Carlin, it's the context of words/symbols that matter. Words and symbols aren't inherently racist, it's the intention of the people using them.

 

[Kelly]

Okay. We'll just pretend there isn't an issue in tackling slavery and its legacy in the modern-day Southern United States, so no one is offended.

Also, I was clearly referring to Germany in the mid 20th century, during Nazi times, so... I strongly doubt that would offend any Germans who post here.

There is a major difference in stating "The South" as a region is where slavery was prevalent, and it is still "The South" where racism can be found more as opposed to the rest of the country. Rather than "Southerners" as a general statement are "this or that", and "THEY" are this or that...big difference.

 

[flickchick85]

Yes, "The South" is a region, made up of plenty of different types of groups, many of whom are problematic and have backward attitudes ripe for the critiquing, so by all means, critique away. But when you start directing your blanket statements toward "Southerners," well now you're addressing your insult toward an entire group of people from that region, many of whom post here and don't appreciate being lumped in with the more bigoted and ignorant among us, and that's what was deemed inappropriate. Hope that makes a little more sense.

 

[Wylie Times]

I meant from a global perspective, which was something I should have made a lot clearer. Unless a foreigner knows a lot about US history, they see the Confederate Flag and it means nothing to them. That same foreigner sees a Nazi flag at a Neo-Nazi rally in Europe and feels differently.

I don't know how the other countries dealt with Slavery, but nothing in South America or Africa represents "slavery" as much as the Confederate Flag does to America.

You're original post still reads as though you're saying American Slavery wasn't as bad as the Jewish holocaust and the perpetrators of that weren't as evil as the those who perpetuated and fought to maintain slavery and white supremacy in the United States.

Like I said, the exact same things went on, only it happened for nearly 300 yrs.

There's a disturbing attempt by many to downplay just how horrific American slavery was and paint those who participated in it in a sympathetic light.

Someone earlier in the threat mentioned how the founding fathers get a "pass" for owning slaves, but in reality they're not. MANY Black people see the founding fathers in the same light. George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, and even "The great emancipator" Abe Lincoln were all white supremacists. These are facts that are continually downplayed within the mainstream.

Hell even many of the people in the abolitionist movement were white supremacists. They abhorred slavery but didn't see blacks as equal or deserving of equal rights to white Americans.

American refuses to deal with the realities of what happened during Slavery, reconstruction, and Jim Crow.

One more thing I'll add is that it's VERY unfair for anyone to act as if racism is somehow unique to the south or southerners. Both in the past and today as much racism can be found in the rest of the country as in the south. It just tends to be more blatant in the southern states than in others (which doesn't make it any worse or better).

I don't think everyone who waves the confederate flag are racists, and meanings change over time. Like that one bit by George Carlin, it's the context of words/symbols that matter. Words and symbols aren't inherently racist, it's the intention of the people using them.

What exactly have the people who wave around the confederate flag done to change it's meaning?

Mind you a big part of the reason they hold on to the flag is the history behind it, they just want to ignore every negative aspect about said history (which is plentiful).

People can't have it both ways. You can't wave that flag around and talk about "Southern pride" and "Honoring those that fought for the confederacy" while at the same time continually deny what the confederacy fought to maintain. It's comparable to celebrating Hitler because you admire his art while at the same time ignoring his role in the holocaust.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

I don't think everyone who waves the confederate flag are racists, and meanings change over time. Like that one bit by George Carlin, it's the context of words/symbols that matter. Words and symbols aren't inherently racist, it's the intention of the people using them.

Once again, if someone puts up a nazi flag does their non-racist intentions really matter over the more obvious, historical implication that offends others?

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

South Carolina was founded over 350 years ago.

The Civil War lasted 4 years.

Why does the Confederate flag represent their entire history?

Plus, there are plenty of people who aren't from the South who display the Confederate flag proudly.

Why?