The Confederate flag

[Thundercrack85]

Slavery was an issue from America's founding. Several people then realized that it was a tumor that would one day erupt. America's greatest politicians spent the entire 19th century trying to keep the issue from blowing up. New England was ready to secede over the issue.

Anyone who says the Civil War was really about anything other than slavery is either miseducated, or lying. Were there some other minor issues? Yes. But they were inconsequential next to the issue of slavery which was the Confederacy's raison d'être.

 

[Charlatan]

We had a parade today of bigots riding around with their confederate flags on their vehicles through all the ethnic neighborhoods. Somehow they got permission from the local police and even had the cops blocking the side roads for them . There was a guy on my facebook who took a video of it. As he was recording it 3 of them ran into each other and he caught it on video. Then he ran out and trolled them saying "God don't like ugly". I would post a link but it has some nsfw language in it.

 

[Webfoot Hero]

Failure by Wal-Mart to not put a flag of hate on a cake. Instead of banning everything that's potentially offensive in kneejerk reactions, stores should really let the market decide if items should be carried or allowed anymore.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ag-design.html?ito=social-twitter_dailymailus

http://abcnews.go.com/Business/walm...cake-man-denied-confederate/story?id=32103721

 

[Mechanix]

For the record, the employee didn't know the flag is ISIS'. The guy isn't being entirely upfront.
http://m.snopes.com/2015/06/29/walmart-isis-cake/

 

[NotFadeAway]

You wouldn't have to pay me anything to burn as ISIS flag as long as I knew it would hit major media outlets!! Heck, even if it was just me, I'd still burn the thing!!

 

[Octoberist]

KKK chapter to hold rally on South Carolina Statehouse grounds

The Loyal White Knights of the Ku Klux Klan’s Pelham, North Carolina, chapter have reserved the Statehouse Grounds in South Carolina for a rally next month.
James Spears, the Great Titan of the chapter, said the group would be rallying to protest “the Confederate flag being took down for all the wrong reasons.”

“It’s part of white people’s culture,” he added.

Read more: http://www.politico.com/story/2015/...se-confederate-flag-119548.html#ixzz3eXFTP1UX

 

[Octoberist]

The funniest thing is that I've seen folks (with the Confederate Flags as their profile pic) still defending the crap out the use of the flag and what it means to them. Even with the KKK coming in saying 'Hey this flag is for White People and it's hardcore racists, dudes."

 

[regwec]

To be fair, no one can really tell anyone else what something should mean to them.

 

[DaddlerTheDalek]

I can understand that the Confederate flag is problematic because of it's dark past for Americans. We Germans can relate...

 

[Schlosser85]

But Germans don't proudly wave the Nazi flag around and fly it on government buildings. Germans should be role models for a few people (Japan, I'm looking at you too) on facing and renouncing dark chapters in their past.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

To be fair, no one can really tell anyone else what something should mean to them.

To be fair, if someone is ignorant about what a symbol (Che image, ISIS flag, Confederate flag, Nazi flag) stood for it doesn't magically make the symbol noble or benign.

 

[regwec]

Yes, but some symbols can be coopted to a new context. Guy Fawkes's face is a good example. If someone has an eccentric perception of what a symbol means, then it will mean what they perceive to them; if enough people share that perception, it will attain a "truth" of its own.

 

[DKDetective]

But Germans don't proudly wave the Nazi flag around and fly it on government buildings. Germans should be role models for a few people (Japan, I'm looking at you too) on facing and renouncing dark chapters in their past.

Using Nazi signage in Germany is actually a criminal offence there, but European countries have rather different legal doctrines of constitutional rights than the United States. I haven't read the Basic Law (German constitution) since undergrad, but I believe Nazi things are specifically excluded from constitutional rights like freedom of assembly and expression.

 

[regwec]

Yes, and a lot of public policy derogations permitted in EU and human rights law stems from Germany's refusal to allow neo Nazism a public face.

 

[DKDetective]

Yes, and a lot of public policy derogations permitted in EU and human rights law stems from Germany's refusal to allow neo Nazism a public face.

Also, the theory of proportionality and justified limitation of constitutional rights which has spread like wildfire everywhere except the US comes from German jurisprudence. The Canadian Supreme Court actually plagiarized the doctrine without giving proper attribution to the German/European courts.

On hate speech legislation, there was a wonderful series of debates by constitutional scholars, Ronald Dworkin (US-pro free speech) and Jeremy Waldron (NZ-pro hate speech legislation). The videos of their discussion have been uploaded to YouTube and the below website conveniently has all of the videos embedded for anyone who is interested:
http://abcdemocracy.net/2012/07/06/...ald-dworkin-and-jeremy-waldron-on-hate-speech

Both sides have excellent arguments in favour of their respective positions.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

Yes, but some symbols can be coopted to a new context. Guy Fawkes's face is a good example. If someone has an eccentric perception of what a symbol means, then it will mean what they perceive to them; if enough people share that perception, it will attain a "truth" of its own.

But when people use Guy Fawkes mask it's an indirect reference to the Gun Powder Plot of 1605.

People who wear the Guy Fawkes mask are not endorsing the Gunpowder plot. They will tell you they don't care about the Gunpowder Plot. They like the costume of a superhero from a sci-fi movie.

If everyone who used the confederate flag were primarily Dukes of Hazzard fans who didn't endorse the confederacy then people would just laugh it off. But they very much do endorse the confederacy.

 

[regwec]

That may be, but my point is that nobody can authoritatively tell another what a symbol means to that other person. I don't think the KKK can claim ownership of the flag as against others: if the latter feel differently about it, that's up to them.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

That may be, but my point is that nobody can authoritatively tell another what a symbol means to that other person. I don't think the KKK can claim ownership of the flag as against others: if the latter feel differently about it, that's up to them.

But you can't endorse the confederacy without endorsing slavery and secession.

The Klan isn't perverting the confederate flag, they're being honest about what it also represented.

It's like if a violent and militant Marxist wore a Che shirt instead of a hippie college student.

 

[regwec]

Yes, but you aren't seriously suggesting that dopey college students are really endorsing Marxist terrorism? Given that they are not, I don't think they should be censured as if they were. In any case, the flag is clearly a more abstract symbol than a human portrait.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

Yes, but you aren't seriously suggesting that dopey college students are really endorsing Marxist terrorism? Given that they are not, I don't think they should be censured as if they were. In any case, the flag is clearly a more abstract symbol than a human portrait.

No those college students try to marginalize Che's human rights violations the same way some Southerners marginalize the slavery motive from the Civil War. The KKK and the militant Marxist are more honest about those aspects of the symbols they display.

And I don't believe the Confederate flag is that abstract. It's an endorsement of the confederacy and what they fought for which was secession from the United States and the state right to enslave human beings.

 

[regwec]

It is more abstract because, as a geometric design, it is more capable of abstraction. Che is Che, but the flag to some people is no doubt a general signifier of the culture which has been familiar to them all their lives, irrespective of its historical association with slavery. By inclination, my interpretation of the flag is similar to yours, but the point is that not everyone who embraces or is apathetic towards the flag is subscribing to a racist ideology.

 

[NotFadeAway]

Yes, but you aren't seriously suggesting that dopey college students are really endorsing Marxist terrorism? Given that they are not, I don't think they should be censured as if they were. In any case, the flag is clearly a more abstract symbol than a human portrait.

College students and their idiotic career student professors do a lot of dumb things!!!

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

College students and their idiotic career student professors do a lot of dumb things!!!

Ditto for the pro-secession/pro-slavery crowd.

 

[Thundercrack85]

The average person is an idiot.

 

[chaseter]

No those college students try to marginalize Che's human rights violations the same way some Southerners marginalize the slavery motive from the Civil War. The KKK and the militant Marxist are more honest about those aspects of the symbols they display.

And I don't believe the Confederate flag is that abstract. It's an endorsement of the confederacy and what they fought for which was secession from the United States and the state right to enslave human beings.

You are countering yourself.