The Constructive Thread

[EssayM]

With all respect to Willie Lumpkin, this is my attempt at perfecting his "positive thread" idea (wait, don't go yet!). In this version, negative comments ARE allowed, but with a few guidelines:

1. Avoid insults. No one is "stupid" for looking forward to this movie, and no one is a "mindless fanboy" for wanting the rights back at Marvel.

2. If you want to post a critical comment about this production and/or the people involved, try to make it constructive: more than a few words, clearly explaining your position, with a minimum of GIFs and silly images.

3. Try to complain about things that actually matter to the final film's quality.

4. Try not to be overly dramatic; remember, it's just a movie, it's not the end of the world. And saying stuff like "Fox is committing financial suicide!" is just a fancy way of saying you don't like the movie.

5. Whatever your stance, try to understand the other side's point of view before responding.

If you don't want to abide by those rules, that's fine, there are plenty of other threads here for you to post in. I just want to see if we can maybe get a good dialogue going, instead of all positive or all negative. So, what do you say?

 

[Six]

Honestly, at this point the whole way I can see us getting a decent Fantastic Four movie is if Fox lets the rights revert. They have too much going against them at this point and their track record is mediocre at best.

 

[Ant-manic]

so this is kind of admitting that the people who post in these threads are mostly trolls, right? why else would you have to specify constructive criticism?

 

[Ragnaroknroll]

I like what EssayM is saying here and respect it but I'm not sure a separate thread is necessary. I don't get how it's trolling to express your opinion as long as people can do so in a civilized manner.

 

[EssayM]

I like what EssayM is saying here and respect it but I'm not sure a separate thread is necessary. I don't get how it's trolling to express your opinion as long as people can do so in a civilized manner.

*checks back over first post* Did I say that?

 

[Sardaukar]

I'm finding that I can't write anything without looking up at the top to make sure I'm following the guidelines (uh...did I just break one?)

 

[The Question]

With all respect to Willie Lumpkin, this is my attempt at perfecting his "positive thread" idea (wait, don't go yet!). In this version, negative comments ARE allowed, but with a few guidelines:

1. Avoid insults. No one is "stupid" for looking forward to this movie, and no one is a "mindless fanboy" for wanting the rights back at Marvel.

2. If you want to post a critical comment about this production and/or the people involved, try to make it constructive: more than a few words, clearly explaining your position, with a minimum of GIFs and silly images.

3. Try to complain about things that actually matter to the final film's quality.

4. Try not to be overly dramatic; remember, it's just a movie, it's not the end of the world. And saying stuff like "Fox is committing financial suicide!" is just a fancy way of saying you don't like the movie.

5. Whatever your stance, try to understand the other side's point of view before responding.

If you don't want to abide by those rules, that's fine, there are plenty of other threads here for you to post in. I just want to see if we can maybe get a good dialogue going, instead of all positive or all negative. So, what do you say?

I would make one addition to those rules: Avoid the "no true scotsman" argument. I've seen a lot of people making the claim that the only "true" Fantastic Four fans who've known and loved these characters for years are the ones dreading this film right out the gate, and that **** is just mean.

 

[Ragnaroknroll]

*checks back over first post* Did I say that?

No sorry - I was actually responding to both you and Ant-Manic's comment that implied that if someone has a differing opinion from their own then that person is a troll.

Again I don't see how yet another thread is necessary. You're either for the film or you're not (or you're not sure). We are not making this film so I'm unclear as to how "constructive" we can be. People should just be able to voice their opinions without attacking others personally. I feel the "Positive Thread" gives a skewed perspective on how people in general feel about this film but I respect it and will steer clear of it so the people who like the idea of this Fox reboot can have their space. But this thread seems like overkill.

 

[Ragnaroknroll]

I would make one addition to those rules: Avoid the "no true scotsman" argument. I've seen a lot of people making the claim that the only "true" Fantastic Four fans who've known and loved these characters for years are the ones dreading this film right out the gate, and that **** is just mean.

Fair enough but don't discount fans who have a more vested interest in this property than others. There are a lot of people who really really care about these characters - myself included.

A person should qualify their level of interest. Are you a casual fan or die hard fan? Are you a fan of the the films, comics, or TV cartoons or all of the above? Are you a fan of Fantastic Four in particular? Or just a Marvel fan? Or are you a fan of DC? or both Marvel and DC? If both do you lean one way or the other? If you're a Fantastic Four comic fan what comics have you read, what are your favorites and which arcs do you prefer, etc.?

If this film is supposedly being made for the fans, I think this all makes a difference in evaluating opinions and who will actually show up to watch this.

For example, I'm not a Batman fan. So I'm game for whatever they want to throw on the big screen. I don't care if they change things around. The Joker could be a girl. Bane could be Irish. Batman could be a wealthy entrepreneur or an ex-con. His parents could've lived or the Joker could've pulled the trigger. It doesn't really matter to me. I just want to be entertained and see a good movie.

I'm sure a Batman fan - as much as he wants to see a good movie - would not feel that way at all but would also want to be sure his beloved character is done justice and his portrayal is true to the source material. I felt Willie made an excellent point about this in another thread.

 

[The Question]

Fair enough but don't discount fans who have a more vested interest in this property than others. There are a lot of people who really really care about these characters - myself included.

A person should qualify their level of interest. Are you a casual fan or die hard fan? Are you a fan of the the films, comics, or TV cartoons or all of the above? Are you a fan of Fantastic Four in particular? Or just a Marvel fan? Or are you a fan of DC? or both Marvel and DC? If both do you lean one way or the other? If you're a Fantastic Four comic fan what comics have you read, what are your favorites and which arcs do you prefer, etc.?

If this film is supposedly being made for the fans, I think this all makes a difference in evaluating opinions and who will actually show up to watch this.

For example, I'm not a Batman fan. So I'm game for whatever they want to throw on the big screen. I don't care if they change things around. The Joker could be a girl. Bane could be Irish. Batman could be a wealthy entrepreneur or an ex-con. His parents could've lived or the Joker could've pulled the trigger. It doesn't really matter to me. I just want to be entertained and see a good movie.

I'm sure a Batman fan - as much as he wants to see a good movie - would not feel that way at all but would also want to be sure his beloved character is done justice and his portrayal is true to the source material. I felt Willie made an excellent point about this in another thread.

My point is that someone not automatically hating and dreading this production doesn't mean they're not diehard fans with a deep investment in the characters, it just means that they're not as bothered by some details being changed or they view what really matters and should be preserved about the characters differently.

 

[Ragnaroknroll]

My point is that someone not automatically hating and dreading this production doesn't mean they're not diehard fans with a deep investment in the characters, it just means that they're not as bothered by some details being changed or they view what really matters and should be preserved about the characters differently.

Okay I'm cool with that and agree. But that's an interesting discussion right there - if you are a die-hard fan just how far are you willing to accept change to your favorite characters? All the people complaining about MBJ - Personally I'm annoyed that we can't even get a natural blonde for Sue. Alba was a bigger miscast than Mara but why not someone like Yvonne Strahovski? She also strikes me at being better at playing the motherly role. Kate Mara strikes me more as the psycho girlfriend type.

 

[The Question]

Okay I'm cool with that and agree. But that's an interesting discussion right there - if you are a die-hard fan just how far are you willing to accept change to your favorite characters? All the people complaining about MBJ - Personally I'm annoyed that we can't even get a natural blonde for Sue. Alba was a bigger miscast than Mara but why not someone like Yvonne Strahovski? She also strikes me at being better at playing the motherly role. Kate Mara strikes me more as the psycho girlfriend type.

I feel like there's a flaw in your premise here. You're assuming that being a true fan means that there is an amount of change to the details of the property that you will find unacceptable. I think it all depends on what kind of changes on feels matters. Me, personally, I don't care if Sue is a redhead. I don't care if Johnny is black. I don't care if Reed is 27. I don't care if Ben has a pretty face. I care that the actors and the filmmakers capture the spirit of these characters, not that they translate their physical appearance from the comics as accurately as possible. For me, getting right what these characters are all about is the top priority. Getting right what they look like is barely a priority at all.

 

[Ragnaroknroll]

I feel like there's a flaw in your premise here. You're assuming that being a true fan means that there is an amount of change to the details of the property that you will find unacceptable. I think it all depends on what kind of changes on feels matters. Me, personally, I don't care if Sue is a redhead. I don't care if Johnny is black. I don't care if Reed is 27. I don't care if Ben has a pretty face. I care that the actors and the filmmakers capture the spirit of these characters, not that they translate their physical appearance from the comics as accurately as possible. For me, getting right what these characters are all about is the top priority. Getting right what they look like is barely a priority at all.

Well I wasn't trying to assume anything. I was asking. How much change is acceptable? I think you've answered that but may I also ask how big a Fantastic Four fan are you? I'm just curious. Personally I've read Fantastic Four off and on since issue 1 and loved them since I was a little kid. I'm a huge fan of Lee and Kirby, Byrne and Hickman.

As far as capturing the spirit of the characters, after the last two films I'm surprised you would have the confidence that Fox's third try would be successful? Reed, Doom and Sue - arguably the heart of the franchise - were all botched terribly. I thought the dynamic between Ben and Johnny was the only thing they did correctly.

 

[The Question]

Well I wasn't trying to assume anything. I was asking. How much change is acceptable? I think you've answered that but may I also ask how big a Fantastic Four fan are you? I'm just curious. Personally I've read Fantastic Four off and on since issue 1 and loved them since I was a little kid. I'm a huge fan of Lee and Kirby, Byrne and Hickman.

I haven't read superhero comics consistently in years (it's an expensive habit), but I've always been a huge FF fan. I love those guys. One of my all time favorite comics is "This Man, This Monster."

As far as capturing the spirit of the characters, after the last two films I'm surprised you would have the confidence that Fox's third try would be successful? Reed, Doom and Sue - arguably the heart of the franchise - were all botched terribly. I thought the dynamic between Ben and Johnny was the only thing they did correctly.

1: I don't have confidence, I'm just not making any assumptions.

2: Different director, different writer, different actors. I'm not going to assume anything about this new outing from the same studio when the creative talent is completely different.

3: I actually don't think the Tim Story FF films did a bad job capturing the spirit of the characters. I don't feel like Reed or Sue were botched at all, and despite the changes made to the character, their version of Doom still felt sufficiently Doom-y to me. The problem with those movies wasn't that they failed to capture the spirit of the characters, the problem was that they were really ****** movies. Their failure was on a technical level. They got the characters, it's just that the characters were in a really weak script directed by a visionless hack. That's my opinion, anyway.

 

[EssayM]

Okay I'm cool with that and agree. But that's an interesting discussion right there - if you are a die-hard fan just how far are you willing to accept change to your favorite characters? All the people complaining about MBJ - Personally I'm annoyed that we can't even get a natural blonde for Sue. Alba was a bigger miscast than Mara but why not someone like Yvonne Strahovski? She also strikes me at being better at playing the motherly role. Kate Mara strikes me more as the psycho girlfriend type.

I feel like the limit is where you can still recognize what character they're supposed to be. Like if you watch a random scene from the TASM 2 trailer, you can tell that Jamie Foxx is supposed to be Electro, even though he's a different race. Similarly, as long as MBJ is shown in his "flamed on" form and annoys the Thing, it shouldn't be hard to figure out who he's supposed to be. As a contrast, the characters in Dragonball Evolution and the GI Joe movies could literally be anyone.

 

[Ragnaroknroll]

I haven't read superhero comics consistently in years (it's an expensive habit), but I've always been a huge FF fan. I love those guys. One of my all time favorite comics is "This Man, This Monster."

One of my favorites too! GREAT comic!

1: I don't have confidence, I'm just not making any assumptions.

I'm not making assumptions about how this film will term out. I'm making an informed prediction. I believe there's a difference.

2: Different director, different writer, different actors. I'm not going to assume anything about this new outing from the same studio when the creative talent is completely different.

I'll play devil's advocate here:

Different director - an unproven director who has exactly one moderately successful film and (to me) a somewhat gimmicky film at that (personally not a fan of the found footage films). I feel the Fantastic Four deserve someone more experienced at the helm with better credentials. The last time Fox went with a new promising director with one successful, acclaimed film was Gavin Hood. The resulting film was X-Men Origins: Wolverine, in my opinion a true nadir in the X-Men series and just a lousy film overall.

Different writer - actually there have been many writers and many rewrites and the last rewrite by Simon Kinberg. Simon Kinberg who wrote films like X-Men: The Last Stand and XXX:State of the Union. Not winning me over here.

Different cast - by far the worst cast I could ever imagine for the Fantastic Four. They've already been critiqued to death so I won't rehash but absolutely nothing about this cast says Fantastic Four to me.

Combined with Fox's track record with all CBM's not involving X-Men - in particular two very terrible Fantastic Four films - I think it's very justified to have serious reservations about this film and hope for the long term viability of the franchise that it ends up in better hands. My hope is that if enough people are vocal about their opposition to this film Fox won't go through with it. The fact that they've approached other directors at this stage means they are definitely having doubts about this whole project. That right there is cause for concern.

3: I actually don't think the Tim Story FF films did a bad job capturing the spirit of the characters. I don't feel like Reed or Sue were botched at all, and despite the changes made to the character, their version of Doom still felt sufficiently Doom-y to me. The problem with those movies wasn't that they failed to capture the spirit of the characters, the problem was that they were really ****** movies. Their failure was on a technical level. They got the characters, it's just that the characters were in a really weak script directed by a visionless hack. That's my opinion, anyway.

Here is where we really disagree. I loved the pick of Ioan Gruffudd originally. I thought he was terrific in Horatio Hornblower and he really looked the part. But the character was written and directed completely wrong. Rather than portray Reed as the confident and accomplished leader he really is they made him a total insecure wuss.

Alba as Sue was never convincing as an intelligent scientist nor did she strike me as the motherly heart and soul of the team in any way - and the relationship with her brother came across as forced. I didn't feel the family element here.

Lastly, Doom was the worst! A truly derivative abomination, he was contrived to be nothing more than a metrosexual Sam Raimi Norman Osborn knockoff with the hybrid powers of Colossus and Electro. Rather than the despot who rules his kingdom with an iron hand, he runs a company - so ineffectually I might add that he gets forced out by a bunch of executives. Instead of petulantly seeking revenge on Reed, where was the tormented but uncompromising, confident genius behind the mask in search of redeeming his mother's soul? This Doom spent more time admiring his good looks in a mirror. Doom doesn't have good looks! I don't know how they could've done a worse job with this character.