The Curious Case of Spider-Man & Hulk Rights (Or Keep Hope Alive That the Rights Will Revert)

They don't need him. You can think otherwise, but they really don't. You are just talking non sense and showing your fan side. You are letting that affect your judgement from a business perspective.

Disney wants the property healthy because of merchandise, but merchandise is consistent regardless.
Pretty much. Spider-Man was still the most highest selling superhero in terms of merchandise in 2014 despite the fact the widely disliked AMS2 was released the same year. Spider-Man will be fine regardless of what happens. If he gets pulled out after Far From Home then I guess my dream of seeing his bromance with Johnny Storm on the big screen goes unfulfilled.

But it is what it is.
 
If Disney wants to continue their monstrous, crazy hits with the MCU, then YES, they need Spider-Man. He is one of the most iconic superheroes ever. It's like saying DC doesn't need Batman after a certain point, lol.

If Disney is content with more modest success from here on out, then I guess they can move on without Spidey. What company in their right mind would think "You know what? We're okay with making not as much money as before" though?
This is an interesting argument. Has the MCU become bigger than it's characters? I'd say yes, definitely. But they're getting some A-listers back in the MCU in exchange for Spider-Man. I'm not saying they can't survive without Spider-Man because they undoubtedly can and have. Can Spider-Man survive without them? Long term, no. Sony has more to lose pulling out than Disney does, especially with the combined MCU they have access to thr XM/F4 worlds

Next year will probably be Black Widow, Eternals and Shang-Chi. Definitely not the most exciting year for Marvel films. But they still have CM, T'Challa and the Guardians franchise. Strange 2 might also see some growth over the first
 
This is an interesting argument. Has the MCU become bigger than it's characters? I'd say yes, definitely. But they're getting some A-listers back in the MCU in exchange for Spider-Man. I'm not saying they can't survive without Spider-Man because they undoubtedly can and have. Can Spider-Man survive without them? Long term, no. Sony has more to lose pulling out than Disney does, especially with the combined MCU they have access to thr XM/F4 worlds

Next year will probably be Black Widow, Eternals and Shang-Chi. Definitely not the most exciting year for Marvel films. But they still have CM, T'Challa and the Guardians franchise. Strange 2 might also see some growth over the first


Its part of the reason why I still dont really buy the whole "x-men and ff are years away" quote from Feige. I just think hes being coy. And not giving away anything just yet. There's no way they haven't been working on rough ideas since at least Summer 2018.
 
If Disney wants to continue their monstrous, crazy hits with the MCU, then YES, they need Spider-Man. He is one of the most iconic superheroes ever. It's like saying DC doesn't need Batman after a certain point, lol.

If Disney is content with more modest success from here on out, then I guess they can move on without Spidey. What company in their right mind would think "You know what? We're okay with making not as much money as before" though?

No need in continuing this conversation. Agree to disagree.
 
Its part of the reason why I still dont really buy the whole "x-men and ff are years away" quote from Feige. I just think hes being coy. And not giving away anything just yet. There's no way they haven't been working on rough ideas since at least Summer 2018.
I certainly hope so. If the X-Men and F4 were not at Disney post-Endgame, I'd definitely be more inclined to say it won't be smooth sailing entirely as Marvel would have less material. This new deal gives Marvel decades more material that's worth exploring and they don't need to scrap the bottom of the barrel anymore

I hope they don't sit on these properties too long. The prospects of New Avengers and legacy characters is definitely very attractive to me personally. Also seeing Wanda and Vision continue to grow
 
Its part of the reason why I still dont really buy the whole "x-men and ff are years away" quote from Feige. I just think hes being coy. And not giving away anything just yet. There's no way they haven't been working on rough ideas since at least Summer 2018.

Feige has said before how he's keen to get the X-Men back. Now he gets it back, he wants to put it on the backburner? You'd think he'd be excited to finally get to use FF and X-Men, just like he was able to use Spider-Man in Civil War. He didn't decide "let's wait with Spidey".

Otherwise it's like that Sex and the City episode where Carrie and Mr Big are in some hotel room and she's keen to have sex with him (and so was he at first). But then he starts reading her book and becomes engrossed in it, preferring to spend time on that, much to her frustration, instead of taking advantage of what's right in front of him.
 
This is an interesting argument. Has the MCU become bigger than it's characters? I'd say yes, definitely. But they're getting some A-listers back in the MCU in exchange for Spider-Man. I'm not saying they can't survive without Spider-Man because they undoubtedly can and have. Can Spider-Man survive without them? Long term, no. Sony has more to lose pulling out than Disney does, especially with the combined MCU they have access to thr XM/F4 worlds

Next year will probably be Black Widow, Eternals and Shang-Chi. Definitely not the most exciting year for Marvel films. But they still have CM, T'Challa and the Guardians franchise. Strange 2 might also see some growth over the first

I would say that the MCU technically never needed Spider-Man in the first place if you think about it, considering how big that first Avengers movie was. Why did Marvel cut that deal with Sony then? Because they saw financial benefits in the long term with acquiring joint-custody of Spider-Man. It's about perpetually raising the stakes with the MCU, and adding Spider-Man into the mix certainly helped with that.

The MCU definitely would have done fine without Spider-Man ... But I think adding Spider-Man into the mix helped to transform the MCU into this giant behemoth monster in the box office. When I saw The Avengers in 2012, I thought "It can't get any bigger or better than this." I don't think anyone could have anticipated just how big these movies would get, and I think that adding Spider-Man helped Marvel out with that. A lot. I don't think so many people would be calling Endgame "The biggest movie of the decade, if not the biggest movie of all time" had characters outside of the original six like Spider-Man, the Guardians, and Black Panther not been involved.

I think the MCU has become too big to fail for a while. Eventually, all things come to an end. However, I just can't imagine a company like Disney see how huge these movies have become and think, "You know what? This is as good as it gets."

The Fox deal is a big deal, but it's been pretty much confirmed that the MCU is holding off on those characters for the next five years or so. James Gunn confirmed he is done after Guardians 3, so that series is about to end. Most people I've talked to only saw Captain Marvel because of Infinity War and Endgame-- will she have that same box office power post-Endgame (I doubt it)? Black Panther will be the only really big name post-Endgame for a while if the MCU lets Spidey go. Personally, I don't see how letting Spidey go after Far From Home is beneficial.
 
I very clearly remember some random exec at Marvel saying, "well if you get full profits for a property, but only 50% for another property, which one do you focus on" when talking about FF/XM. Furthermore XM and FF got much more shoved to the side post Disney acquisition.

Disney execs would have to sign up on such a deal (i.e. SM deal). The Sony leaks showed there was an email involving Iger and Horn. This is above Feige's pay grade, though of course his bosses will want to keep him happy as much as feasibly possible. Same is true for Sony btw, it would go above Rothman's head. Any amendments to the contract in 2015 would involve the parent company. Any further amendments would involve the parent company.
I wasn't saying that the execs wouldn't have to review or sign off of on it, but that it was one made through negotiations between Sony Pictures and Marvel Studios, not necessarily Sony Entertainment and Disney whose involvement was towards the end when it came to actually making the contract. My main point is that Iger isn't sitting in on every meeting Marvel is having and deciding which franchises gets the go ahead. More like he gets more general reports of what's Marvel is doing, signs off on it. So when it comes time for renewing the negotiations and if the deal remains good for both parties and Feige wants it, Iger will sign off. As long as the studio remain so phenomenally profitable I doubt Iger would deny it. While my understanding of the corporate structure of Disney is somewhat limited

If I recall that quote about FF/XM was towards a potential Fox/Marvel deal in the style of Sony. I don't think Fox has merchandise claims on anything that wasn't tied to the films. My point was that it wasn't Iger who made the call to prevent FF/XM from merchandising but Ike Perlmutter. Likewise when the deal was announced it wasn't Iger who ordered them back but simply Ike getting that stick out of his ass. It's not something here's directly involved in. Plus that move can be argued whether or not that course of action was the best choice (you'd have to actually have the numbers to crunch in order to do so).
 
Its part of the reason why I still dont really buy the whole "x-men and ff are years away" quote from Feige. I just think hes being coy. And not giving away anything just yet. There's no way they haven't been working on rough ideas since at least Summer 2018.

I think he's talking about an X-Men or Fantastic Four movie. The characters will show up before then, I'm certain. They won't rush it though like they did Spider-man.

I wasn't saying that the execs wouldn't have to review or sign off of on it, but that it was one made through negotiations between Sony Pictures and Marvel Studios, not necessarily Sony Entertainment and Disney whose involvement was towards the end when it came to actually making the contract. My main point is that Iger isn't sitting in on every meeting Marvel is having and deciding which franchises gets the go ahead. More like he gets more general reports of what's Marvel is doing, signs off on it. So when it comes time for renewing the negotiations and if the deal remains good for both parties and Feige wants it, Iger will sign off. As long as the studio remain so phenomenally profitable I doubt Iger would deny it. While my understanding of the corporate structure of Disney is somewhat limited

If I recall that quote about FF/XM was towards a potential Fox/Marvel deal in the style of Sony. I don't think Fox has merchandise claims on anything that wasn't tied to the films. My point was that it wasn't Iger who made the call to prevent FF/XM from merchandising but Ike Perlmutter. Likewise when the deal was announced it wasn't Iger who ordered them back but simply Ike getting that stick out of his ass. It's not something here's directly involved in. Plus that move can be argued whether or not that course of action was the best choice (you'd have to actually have the numbers to crunch in order to do so).

From Disney's 10K

Under the licensing arrangements for The Fantastic Four and X-Men, the third-party studio pays the Company a licensing fee and receives a share of the Company’s merchandise revenue on these properties.

It wasn't just movie specific merchandise. Fox received a share of the revenue regardless.
 
I feel like it would be idiotic for Sony to sell back Spider-Man since Venom and Spider-Verse made ridiculous amounts of money. It would also be idiotic to reboot Spider-Man himself and not renew the deal with Marvel. Spider-Man is fine as is since the video and streaming sales for Sony and merch sales for Marvel work out well.

At the same time, Universal don't feel any need to play ball for some stupid reason. What happened was that Disney was able to use the Hulk in a team-up film with Thor: Ragnarok which means that Marvel can STILL make a Hulk movie so long as another character gets top billing. Universal are only cheating themselves. What they should do is sell the rights to Hulk and Namor back for around $1 billion and make a pretty penny since for over a decade, they've been making nothing. Now that the Fox deal cleared, Marvel should make said deal once their parent company reaches a return on investment to the tune of $71 billion in profit which will likely be in around 3 years since they make $60 billion in revenue per year and when you manage to factor in licensing deals and operating costs, the increased number of films released per year as well as Hulu and a whole ton more merch based on the X-Men, Fantastic Four, Alien and Predator franchises will likely offset those costs
 
Into the Verse earned $374 million worldwide, thats not a ridiculous amount of money as I know plenty of animated films that earned more than that.

Venom and Into the Verse might have been profitable for Sony, but by the sixth live action/animated film, could they still release more films in a steady pace like the MCU? Doubt it.
 
Into the Verse earned $374 million worldwide, thats not a ridiculous amount of money as I know plenty of animated films that earned more than that.

Venom and Into the Verse might have been profitable for Sony, but by the sixth live action/animated film, could they still release more films in a steady pace like the MCU? Doubt it.

LEGO movie franchise pretty much died by the time Ninjago was released. LEGO Movie Part 2 bombed.
 
I feel like it would be idiotic for Sony to sell back Spider-Man since Venom and Spider-Verse made ridiculous amounts of money. It would also be idiotic to reboot Spider-Man himself and not renew the deal with Marvel. Spider-Man is fine as is since the video and streaming sales for Sony and merch sales for Marvel work out well.

At the same time, Universal don't feel any need to play ball for some stupid reason. What happened was that Disney was able to use the Hulk in a team-up film with Thor: Ragnarok which means that Marvel can STILL make a Hulk movie so long as another character gets top billing. Universal are only cheating themselves. What they should do is sell the rights to Hulk and Namor back for around $1 billion and make a pretty penny since for over a decade, they've been making nothing. Now that the Fox deal cleared, Marvel should make said deal once their parent company reaches a return on investment to the tune of $71 billion in profit which will likely be in around 3 years since they make $60 billion in revenue per year and when you manage to factor in licensing deals and operating costs, the increased number of films released per year as well as Hulu and a whole ton more merch based on the X-Men, Fantastic Four, Alien and Predator franchises will likely offset those costs

I can't even claim to be a fan of the films but...

F&F4 made almost $400 million in 2009.
Number 5 made $626 million in 2011.
6 made almost $800 million in 2013
7 made over $1 billion and so did number 8.

All from Universal. They flopped big time with their classic monster franchise but let's not act like they don't have their successes.
 
Yeah but Sony are at least using the rights they have. Universal aren't. What I meant by making nothing is making nothing with the Marvel rights they own.

The only way that Sony will give up Spider-Man is if Bloodshot and Harbinger are huge hits and other Valiant properties prove to be profitable. If they start giving us stuff like Armorines, Eternal Warrior, Quantum and Woody, X-O Manowar, Shadowman and Ninjak, then Sony will have their own superhero universe and they won't need Spider-Man anymore and it would be more profitable to sell the live-action Spider-Man rights back since they won't need to make films about unpopular secondary characters anymore and can put their efforts into a shared universe they completely control and therefore won't have to deal with other studios interfering and will get a better cut of the merchandise since Valiant are small enough to the point where they can be bullied into sharing merch revenue. Same goes for Sony's partnership with Capcom for making films. If Monster Hunter and Mega Man aren't as bad as I fear they'll be, that's another source of easy money where they won't be aiding a rival studio's film universe.

Sony would be stupid to get rid of the Spider-Man animated rights since they can use every single Spider-Man character in animation and set up sequels for Miles Morales, Ghost Spider, Renew Your Vows, Spider-Man Noir and Spider-Man 2099. Spider-Verse blew Marvel's own recent animated films out of the water and won an Oscar. Plus animated films manage to play well with kids.

Characters like Morbius and Silver Sable are obscure and therefore risky. I have little to no idea what Sony are attempting to accomplish with their Spider-Man supporting characters films. And Venom made a ton of money but wasn't a particularly good film. It's a lot like Bayformers where even though the films are successful, they're reviled by the people who pay money to see them. I have low hopes for Morbius but it'll likely make a ton of cash.

Compare that to Universal whose Universal Monsters universe collapsed, the Fast and the Furious franchise is about to end within the next 5 years and Jurassic Park and Despicable Me are all they'll have left in terms of franchises. When you compare Universal to a studio to virtually anyone else, they're in a really bad shape. Lionsgate, Disney, WB, Sony and Paramount all have bankable franchises and licences to create films based on popular IP. Annapurna, STX and Lantern Entertainment aren't owned by a cable TV provider so they can afford to run the arthouse circuit and make smaller films without worrying about being a drag on their parent company. Universal will have to use the Hulk and Namor rights if they want to release more than one or two blockbuster films per year. The alternative is Universal creating a bunch of new IP which they can spin into franchises which may not work. If Universal work with Marvel, then they're looking at Hulk, She-Hulk, Red Hulk and Namor film series. If they don't work out a deal with Marvel, I half expect Comcast to sell Universal within a decade.
 
What they should do is sell the rights to Hulk and Namor back for around $1 billion and make a pretty penny since for over a decade, they've been making nothing.

I literally loled. Some of you have no idea on the value of things. $1B for the rights of first refusal for solo Hulk and (presumably) Namor movies. Yikes.
 
I literally loled. Some of you have no idea on the value of things. $1B for the rights of first refusal for solo Hulk and (presumably) Namor movies. Yikes.
It's not like Universal will settle for less. I'm guessing that they've been offered multiple deals in the past within the hundreds of millions.
 
Also, Comcast's stake in Hulu is estimated to be almost $3 billion. There will likely be Hulu negotiations around international expansion next year and the Hulk and Namor rights will be something Disney will settle for when it comes to those talks. It's ultimately just a matter of what Universal will accept. $1 billion should be the max bid since that's what Marvel offered Sony for the Spider-Man rights but since the Hulk films haven't been as profitable and there has never been a Namor film, I'd expect it to be settled for around $250-300 million.
 
It's not like Universal will settle for less. I'm guessing that they've been offered multiple deals in the past within the hundreds of millions.

Also, Comcast's stake in Hulu is estimated to be almost $3 billion. There will likely be Hulu negotiations around international expansion next year and the Hulk and Namor rights will be something Disney will settle for when it comes to those talks. It's ultimately just a matter of what Universal will accept. $1 billion should be the max bid since that's what Marvel offered Sony for the Spider-Man rights but since the Hulk films haven't been as profitable and there has never been a Namor film, I'd expect it to be settled for around $250-300 million.

LMAO
 
Yea there's no way that's happening. They forked out the cash for Spider-Man because he's much more lucrative than Namor and Hulk. But 1 bill was their highest offer and they're not dropping half of that for Hulk/Namor
 
Yeah, those are not worth anywhere near $1 billion.
 
If Disney wants to continue their monstrous, crazy hits with the MCU, then YES, they need Spider-Man. He is one of the most iconic superheroes ever. It's like saying DC doesn't need Batman after a certain point, lol.

If Disney is content with more modest success from here on out, then I guess they can move on without Spidey. What company in their right mind would think "You know what? We're okay with making not as much money as before" though?

Completely disagree. MCU will do just fine without SM. Of COURSE it would be great to have him in the fold, but I think there are more BPs and CMs out there for solos and with X and FF back in the fold as well as the best of the villains, MCU is set for the foreseeable future. Not every movie is going to be a home run, but MCU is batting at a very impressive clip right now. The SM franchise is more in need of MCU right now than the other way around.
 
1 billion for Hulk and Namor rights? I may be a dumb layman, but even know that's preposterous. :funny:
 
Also, Comcast's stake in Hulu is estimated to be almost $3 billion. There will likely be Hulu negotiations around international expansion next year and the Hulk and Namor rights will be something Disney will settle for when it comes to those talks. It's ultimately just a matter of what Universal will accept. $1 billion should be the max bid since that's what Marvel offered Sony for the Spider-Man rights but since the Hulk films haven't been as profitable and there has never been a Namor film, I'd expect it to be settled for around $250-300 million.
Does that include ownership of The Incredible Hulk film and Universal Studios Orlando theme park rights too ??
 
Completely disagree. MCU will do just fine without SM. Of COURSE it would be great to have him in the fold, but I think there are more BPs and CMs out there for solos and with X and FF back in the fold as well as the best of the villains, MCU is set for the foreseeable future. Not every movie is going to be a home run, but MCU is batting at a very impressive clip right now. The SM franchise is more in need of MCU right now than the other way around.
This. The MCU doesn't need Spider-Man. Anyone saying that are just fooling themselves, imo. They technically don't even need FF and X-Men. If Marvel can make billion dollar movies out of B-list characters like BP and CM(more money than any Spider-Man film has made by the way) then they definitely won't lose much if/when Spider-Man is taken out.
 
This. The MCU doesn't need Spider-Man. Anyone saying that are just fooling themselves, imo. They technically don't even need FF and X-Men. If Marvel can make billion dollar movies out of B-list characters like BP and CM(more money than any Spider-Man film has made by the way) then they definitely won't lose much if/when Spider-Man is taken out.

Yeah, but, I will say, SM can be a very cool character and who knows what Marvel might be able to do with him in the fold. FF and Spidey could be pretty awesome. Still, MCU has more in their stable than they can possibly develop in the near future.
 

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