The Dark Knight Rises vs Batman Returns

[LaughterLives]

How many comic books with Catwoman have you read? I have been collecting comic books with Catwoman in them for over 30 years and Anne Hathaway was the embodiment of the Catwoman in the comic books.
If you found her cringe worthy then you must also find the Catwoman in the comic books cringe worthy.

It doesn't matter if its accurate if the performance is awful.
Books/pictures don't perform, they're static. You're given a visual and your imagination does the rest.

Suicide Squad, Joker is the most comic accurate Joker yet but Leto's performance made it a little difficult to enjoy, didn't it?
Same thing.

 

[The Joker]

Suicide Squad, Joker is the most comic accurate Joker

*Splutter of laughter* That tattooed bling bling jewelry gold jacket wearing looking pimp, night club owner, lovesick bf who can't function without Harley around is the most comic accurate Joker?

Maybe in the same universe where Halle Berry's Catwoman is the most comic accurate Catwoman.

 

[Greens]

Hathaway's Catwoman was more like the comics than Michelle Pfeiffer's. Hathaways performance was solid. The only problem was the costume

And the script. The movie easily could have existed without Catwoman. Take that screentime and use it to flesh out Bane's hold on Gotham.

 

[Filmfan93]

It doesn't matter if its accurate if the performance is awful.
Books/pictures don't perform, they're static. You're given a visual and your imagination does the rest.

Suicide Squad, Joker is the most comic accurate Joker yet but Leto's performance made it a little difficult to enjoy, didn't it?
Same thing.

Nope, he really wasn't.

And that comes from someone who really loved him at first, but then did a bit of thinking and realised he is really, really bad and not the Joker.

 

[LaughterLives]

*Splutter of laughter* That tattooed bling bling jewelry gold jacket wearing looking pimp, night club owner, lovesick bf who can't function without Harley around is the most comic accurate Joker?

Maybe in the same universe where Halle Berry's Catwoman is the most comic accurate Catwoman.

Its ok to be confused about characterization over poor plot choices.

 

[LaughterLives]

And the script. The movie easily could have existed without Catwoman. Take that screentime and use it to flesh out Bane's hold on Gotham.

This exactly! She was worthless.

 

[Fincher]

What I look for in Catwoman isn't based on the comics. Putting aside what I want in Catwoman and just taking TDKR for what it is, though, I liked Anne better in the scenes where she was pretending to be a maid or an innocent bystander and when she was the more down-to-earth real Selina than when she was being "Catwoman". I found her to be varyingly awkward and annoying in that role. Her character, overall, was all right.

 

[Greens]

What I look for in Catwoman isn't based on the comics. Putting aside what I want in Catwoman and just taking TDKR for what it is, though, I liked Anne better in the scenes where she was pretending to be a maid or an innocent bystander and when she was the more down-to-earth real Selina than when she was being "Catwoman". I found her to be varyingly awkward and annoying in that role. Her character, overall, was all right.

I feel like Nolan couldn't properly strike the "femme fatale" chord with her. She felt very neutered. They pulled it off perfectly with Eva Green's character in Casino Royale.

 

[Awest66]

The movie easily could have existed without Catwoman.

I disagree. She's the main female presence of the movie. I fail to see how she was anymore "pointless" than Black Widow was in Winter Soldier.

Take that screentime and use it to flesh out Bane's hold on Gotham.

I'd rather they lose Talia or even Blake than Catwoman.

 

[OutOfBoose]

It doesn't matter if its accurate if the performance is awful.
Books/pictures don't perform, they're static. You're given a visual and your imagination does the rest.

Suicide Squad, Joker is the most comic accurate Joker yet but Leto's performance made it a little difficult to enjoy, didn't it?
Same thing.

 

[Greens]

I disagree. She's the main female presence of the movie. I fail to see how she was anymore "pointless" than Black Widow was in Winter Soldier.

I felt like Black Widow was a lot more present than Catwoman. She was just a non-entity to me. When I look back on the film I don't even consider Catwoman.

 

[The Joker]

Its ok to be confused about characterization over poor plot choices.

It's not ok to not understand that poor plot choices about characters are part of characterizations. Sometimes characters are even reduced to mere plot devices, like Letoker was.

Nope, he really wasn't.

And that comes from someone who really loved him at first, but then did a bit of thinking and realised he is really, really bad and not the Joker.

Exactly. He was abysmal.

 

[jmc]

I think Anne's Catwoman was good, I just don't think Rises was the right story to use her in. I grew to like the costume overtime. I would have preferred a more comic accurate design but the Julie Newmar look worked for me in the end.

 

[Laderlappen]

I don't think Anne Hathaway was bad but Michelle Pfeiffer brought Catwoman to life in a way that has only happen a handful times in comic book movies. I liked Anne though, I think she did a good job.

 

[OutOfBoose]

I love the costume and Anne is pretty cute. But Michelle was pure fire.

 

[Herofan]

Batman Returns by far, much better characters (aside of course from making Gordon a joke), mood and, though it's messy, story; overall a great film while The Dark Knight Rises was just above average.

BR was excellent in its intensity and most of its humor was also effective and well-integrated while TDKR was sometimes trying too hard to be too funny and its villains were fairly underdeveloped/underwhelming.

 

[Herofan]

I wasn't questioning the nature of having the Penguin run for mayor, I was questioning the point and what it actually added to the movie aside from stretching the runtime.

It added to the theme that the Gothamites were pretty dim or at least very easy to manipulate, to Shreck and the Penguin posing a different kind of challenge to Batman, to the Penguin thinking that he could rule Gotham rather than seek vengeance and then on again (due to his own fault) being rejected being really vengeful.

The entire subplot about Max Shreck trying to steal Gothams power is completely dropped and never mentioned again, Penguin and Catwoman's plot to frame Batman for kidnapping the Ice Princess also conributes nothing of value to the narrative. On top of that, We have the Penguin switching from one idiotic plan to another

The power plant is not much of a subplot at all, more like background and character motivations. It makes a lot of sense that since both Penguin and Catwoman resent Batman (one wanting to be the new public hero, one thinking he's the hero of a bad system) they would want to discredit him and while the whole tone was cartoony I don't see how the plans are idiotic.

I'm not saying TDKR is perfect by any stretch of the imagination but it's definitely more consistent in terms of plotting than Batman Returns and has a much better story to boot.

Isn't it pretty convenient coincidence that Bane got Gordon's speech? Why did Ra's expel Bane (Talia was too young or Bane is more sadistic?)? Why does Batman trust Catwoman other than feeling sorry for her? Why is way-past-his-prime Batman so overly confident that he can beat Bane and his army? You've also got Bane trying to appeal to people like a populist even though he threatens to blow up the city and we get no sense of how many people like his alternate system, that seems like unintentional cartooniness.

BR is a sexist pile of garbage. Because apparently in Tim Burton's world, the only way that a woman could conceivably give Batman a good fight is if she had to be RESURRECTED FROM THE DEAD BY MAGICAL CATS.

I think that's a better, more interesting and likeable explanation/origin than just "She trained a lot offscreen"/"She's been a thief for a long time before" (and is really sneaky while Batman is past his prime).

 

[The Joker]

It added to the theme that the Gothamites were pretty dim or at least very easy to manipulate

That wasn't a theme in the movie.

to Shreck and the Penguin posing a different kind of challenge to Batman, to the Penguin thinking that he could rule Gotham rather than seek vengeance and then on again (due to his own fault) being rejected being really vengeful.

Nor was this. Schreck was only pushing Penguin to be mayor so he could have his phony energy sucking power plant green lit, since the regular mayor rejected it. Penguin showed no interest in the scheme until Schreck promised him unlimited poon-tang.

The power plant is not much of a subplot at all, more like background and character motivations. It makes a lot of sense that since both Penguin and Catwoman resent Batman (one wanting to be the new public hero, one thinking he's the hero of a bad system) they would want to discredit him and while the whole tone was cartoony I don't see how the plans are idiotic.

It was unnecessary baloney. Plot filler. Batman was a wanted man before in B'89, and it didn't stop him taking down the Joker. Why would him being discredited stop him now. And it didn't, since he still took down Penguin the next night after he was framed.

Isn't it pretty convenient coincidence that Bane got Gordon's speech?

Convenient maybe, but it at least served a real purpose to the story.

Why did Ra's expel Bane (Talia was too young or Bane is more sadistic?)?

No, because he was a painful reminder of the hell Ra's had left his wife to die in. This was spelled out in the movie.

Why does Batman trust Catwoman other than feeling sorry for her?

Maybe because she saved his life, and risked her own neck to come back and help him.

Why is way-past-his-prime Batman so overly confident that he can beat Bane and his army?

Because like in the comics, Batman underestimated Bane. He thought Bane was just a mercenary.

You've also got Bane trying to appeal to people like a populist even though he threatens to blow up the city and we get no sense of how many people like his alternate system, that seems like unintentional cartooniness.

You see armies of people ransacking the streets, taking part in his kangaroo courts etc. Do you really need an official number to know roughly how many are taking part in his revolution?

 

[Herofan]

Burton deliberately went for a version of The Penguin that wasn't like the comics;

'Upon their first meeting, it became apparent that the director wanted a characterisation that bore little or no resemblance to previous Penguins. ''The last thing I wanted to hear from Tim was that we were going to do the Penguin from the comic book or the TV series,'' recalls DeVito.'

http://www.angelfire.com/film/batman/movies/returns/cast/penguin.html


It's one of the things fans hated about the movie

Would you want Burton to do a Penguin really close to the Burgess Meredith version or the comics of the '50s and '60s? I loved the Burgess Meredith character but I don't think anything like that would work outside of the West series, in a new action-character-drama rather than a self-spoofing film.

 

[Awest66]

Batman Returns by far, much better characters (aside of course from making Gordon a joke), mood and, though it's messy, story; overall a great film while The Dark Knight Rises was just above average..

I think you've got the movies on the poll mixed up.

Rises easily trumps Returns in terms of both characters and story.

 

[Rorschach2012]

I think you've got the movies on the poll mixed up.

Returns easily trumps Rises in terms of both characters and story.

 

[Frankeh]

I think you've got the movies on the poll mixed up.

Rises easily trumps Returns in terms of both characters and story.

I think Returns easily trumps Rises in terms of both characters and story.

 

[Awest66]

I think you've got the movies on the poll mixed up.

Returns easily trumps Rises in terms of both characters and story.

Agree to disagree

 

[Awest66]

I think Returns easily trumps Rises in terms of both characters and story.

In what regard? Aside from Penguin and Catwoman (maybe Shreck), Returns has very little in the way of actual characters (Batman is sidetracked even further, Alfred and Gordon have basically nothing to do)

Story wise, Returns is pretty messy, more so than Rises easily.

 

[LaughterLives]

I fail to see how

hahaha! No explanation will help you see what you fail at. Same goes with your buddy the clown.