The Dark Knight Rises vs Man of Steel

[jokesonm3]

I hate to see DC vs DC fights... but i chose MoS.

 

[Omegabat]

Not with a plot as frankly, stupid as what Bane had going on. It's Cobra Commander on G.I. Joe level idiocy to have your supposed ruthless villain take the effort to actually keep the police force alive all those months, and no, there is NO SINGLE GOOD REASON FOR HIM TO DO THAT. None, unless he was planning on them being able to rise up against him, which of course is what happens cuz of the magic of plot convenience. Also, the idea that after, what, months in a sewer that the police would be in any shape to launch an assault on Bane's men is ridiculous. GF III is lackluster, but TDKRises is just a hot mess all around. Coppola's daughter was not great shakes as an actress, but at least the part was key to the film. Where as while Nolan has lightning in a bottle with Anne Hathaway as Selina, did he put more of her in the movie? Nope. We just had to spend any time on Foley and Blake, two unnecessary characters if there ever were. I also don't remember anything as painful in GF III as the scene where Blake explains how he figured out Bruce was Batman, and yes, that includes the seduction in the kitchen between Garcia and Sophia.

Did we watch the same movie? he kept them alive because they were all gonna die anyway because of the nuke. He wanted to maintain the image of a benevolent revolutionary,not a ruthless barbarian.
Whats next? how does Bane eat and maintain his body despite not going to the gym?

 

[dc_mos]

Man of Steel.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

Did we watch the same movie? he kept them alive because they were all gonna die anyway because of the nuke. He wanted to maintain the image of a benevolent revolutionary,not a ruthless barbarian.
Whats next? how does Bane eat and maintain his body despite not going to the gym?

You can't maintain the image of a benevolent revolutionary when not one Goddamned person in the city outside of the dudes who were locked up in prison were happy that he blew up the freaking place killing and maiming who knows how many people Let's put it this way... How much do you think myself and other New Yorkers would react to Osama Bin Laden if the day of the 9/11 attack he appeared in the middle of Times Square saying, "Hey, join my glorious revolution?" The idea of Bane doing his revolutionary schtick was half baked at best. The idea that NOT killing the police is a good move is plot convenience of the highest order. People have the absolute wrong conclusion that Bane was undermined as a character because it turned out he was really subservient to Talia. Nope. That part is WAY off the mark. What undermines him is the silly Saturday morning cartoon villain nonsense foisted up the character and effectively defanging him after building the character up pretty well in the early goings of the film. That breaking the Bat scene is a rare bright spot but, again, as badass as he was eventually they couldn't maintain that. Can I also ask why anyone would believe the guy that BLEW UP THE CITY, when he makes claims of knowledge that Jim Gordon had? Now... It was the truth (A truth he learned through plot convenience working overtime ) but again... would anyone realistically care what the dude who killed maybe thousands in multiple bombings in one day has to say? Well, we actually never really do learn since the citizens of Gotham, outside of Foley or Blake, again, useless characters, are pretty voiceless in a story that kind of demanded the reaction of the average citizen as well as seeing in depth the way they were living their lives under the occupation. But nope... It's main cast only.

Besides... The police are all trapped underground, right? The city is in chaos? Right? Well... IF he had decided to nerve gas the force, who the hell would have known? Let's not mention the absurdity of these cops mounting a counter revolution after all their time underground. Those dudes, even with "care packages" would be emaciated, vitamin D deficient, some mentally unstable, husks of men staying in those conditions for as long as they did. Did you see what those Chilean Miners looked like when they got out? None of them were gonna be charging terrorists with armed with machine guns any time soon. So too should it have been with these cops.

But let's add some more brilliance...

How and why didn't Bruce realize that Selina was leading him to a section of the sewers RIGHT UNDER HIS OWN R&D SECTION OF HIS OWN BUILDING? There are oversights and then there are clustercusses of epic proportions. Again... That's silly for any version of Batman.

The process of Bruce also losing his money is stupid, again, in a way that only could happen if you are writing an 80's cartoon. "Geez Bruce, we know that there were crazy shenanigans seen on the National News at the Gotham Stock Exchange when it was assaulted by terrorist, with witnesses that could testify that they had done something to the computers, but... Nah, we ain't gonna investigate, we'll just magically get rid of THE ENTIRETY OF YOUR ASSETS SOME HOW. In one day some how they even manage to shut off the electricity for some reason at the manor, and... That makes no sense. But I guess we needed an excuse for Bruce to schtupp Talia near a fireplace, because oh my lord what a well written and believable romance. I mean... The chemistry... Sorry, the LACK of chemistry between these two characters is apparent.

But hey... Let's not forget the elephant in the room... Genius Bruce Wayne apparently thought it was cool beans to have a potential nuclear incident within the city limits of Gotham AND NOT TELL ANYONE. I don't care what rationale you want to make for it, no matter how you cut it... It's ridiculous. Writing like that kinda puts the blame for everything on Bruce, which... Yeah, that's not what I want in a Batman story. Who cares that he had a BS "contingency" of drowning it in the river... So, Bruce was fine with being Mr. Burns from Springfield since he didn't care that he maybe was going to make the fish in the Gotham River grow three eyes. Bruce didn't kinda think that a nuclear fusion device within like, a bus ride from downtown Gotham was a good idea? It's a kind of insulting conceit to the character that he's that stupid.

The shame is... There's some really good material in fits and starts in TDKRises, but the end result is still a hot mess for myself.

 

[Slade W]

TDKR > ROTJ > Godfather Part III

Yeah, I went there.

It is not controversial to put it ahead of ROTJ. TDKR is a much better movie.

 

[Slade W]

TDKR. It is the weakest of Nolan's Batman movies for me, but it is still in a different league to MOS IMO.

 

[Omegabat]

You can't maintain the image of a benevolent revolutionary when not one Goddamned person in the city outside of the dudes who were locked up in prison were happy that he blew up the freaking place killing and maiming who knows how many people Let's put it this way... How much do you think myself and other New Yorkers would react to Osama Bin Laden if the day of the 9/11 attack he appeared in the middle of Times Square saying, "Hey, join my glorious revolution?" The idea of Bane doing his revolutionary schtick was half baked at best. The idea that NOT killing the police is a good move is plot convenience of the highest order. People have the absolute wrong conclusion that Bane was undermined as a character because it turned out he was really subservient to Talia. Nope. That part is WAY off the mark. What undermines him is the silly Saturday morning cartoon villain nonsense foisted up the character and effectively defanging him after building the character up pretty well in the early goings of the film. That breaking the Bat scene is a rare bright spot but, again, as badass as he was eventually they couldn't maintain that. Can I also ask why anyone would believe the guy that BLEW UP THE CITY, when he makes claims of knowledge that Jim Gordon had? Now... It was the truth (A truth he learned through plot convenience working overtime ) but again... would anyone realistically care what the dude who killed maybe thousands in multiple bombings in one day has to say? Well, we actually never really do learn since the citizens of Gotham, outside of Foley or Blake, again, useless characters, are pretty voiceless in a story that kind of demanded the reaction of the average citizen as well as seeing in depth the way they were living their lives under the occupation. But nope... It's main cast only.

Besides... The police are all trapped underground, right? The city is in chaos? Right? Well... IF he had decided to nerve gas the force, who the hell would have known? Let's not mention the absurdity of these cops mounting a counter revolution after all their time underground. Those dudes, even with "care packages" would be emaciated, vitamin D deficient, some mentally unstable, husks of men staying in those conditions for as long as they did. Did you see what those Chilean Miners looked like when they got out? None of them were gonna be charging terrorists with armed with machine guns any time soon. So too should it have been with these cops.

But let's add some more brilliance...

How and why didn't Bruce realize that Selina was leading him to a section of the sewers RIGHT UNDER HIS OWN R&D SECTION OF HIS OWN BUILDING? There are oversights and then there are clustercusses of epic proportions. Again... That's silly for any version of Batman.

The process of Bruce also losing his money is stupid, again, in a way that only could happen if you are writing an 80's cartoon. "Geez Bruce, we know that there were crazy shenanigans seen on the National News at the Gotham Stock Exchange when it was assaulted by terrorist, with witnesses that could testify that they had done something to the computers, but... Nah, we ain't gonna investigate, we'll just magically get rid of THE ENTIRETY OF YOUR ASSETS SOME HOW. In one day some how they even manage to shut off the electricity for some reason at the manor, and... That makes no sense. But I guess we needed an excuse for Bruce to schtupp Talia near a fireplace, because oh my lord what a well written and believable romance. I mean... The chemistry... Sorry, the LACK of chemistry between these two characters is apparent.

But hey... Let's not forget the elephant in the room... Genius Bruce Wayne apparently thought it was cool beans to have a potential nuclear incident within the city limits of Gotham AND NOT TELL ANYONE. I don't care what rationale you want to make for it, no matter how you cut it... It's ridiculous. Writing like that kinda puts the blame for everything on Bruce, which... Yeah, that's not what I want in a Batman story. Who cares that he had a BS "contingency" of drowning it in the river... So, Bruce was fine with being Mr. Burns from Springfield since he didn't care that he maybe was going to make the fish in the Gotham River grow three eyes. Bruce didn't kinda think that a nuclear fusion device within like, a bus ride from downtown Gotham was a good idea? It's a kind of insulting conceit to the character that he's that stupid.

The shame is... There's some really good material in fits and starts in TDKRises, but the end result is still a hot mess for myself.

I'm sorry man but the only part of this post that can be considered legitimate criticism is the part about there not being enough emphasis on the civilians pov about the siege/revolution.
The rest is just blabbing,no offense I sincerely mean that. If this exact same type of criticism was applied against MOS then that movie falls apart with in the first five minutes.
I can go on about genetically engineered soldier Zod getting his butt whooped by a scientist or the absurdity of digging in to a planets core or a civilization that advanced using flying mules or the pointlessness of Zods coup or the stupidity of sending criminals to a safe spot while condemning the rest of the civilization or that Zod attempted a coup with less than 10 people on his side. Yeah that's just the first 5-10 minutes.

 

[Evil]

Not with a plot as frankly, stupid as what Bane had going on. It's Cobra Commander on G.I. Joe level idiocy to have your supposed ruthless villain take the effort to actually keep the police force alive all those months, and no, there is NO SINGLE GOOD REASON FOR HIM TO DO THAT. None, unless he was planning on them being able to rise up against him, which of course is what happens cuz of the magic of plot convenience. Also, the idea that after, what, months in a sewer that the police would be in any shape to launch an assault on Bane's men is ridiculous. GF III is lackluster, but TDKRises is just a hot mess all around. Coppola's daughter was not great shakes as an actress, but at least the part was key to the film. Where as while Nolan has lightning in a bottle with Anne Hathaway as Selina, did he put more of her in the movie? Nope. We just had to spend any time on Foley and Blake, two unnecessary characters if there ever were. I also don't remember anything as painful in GF III as the scene where Blake explains how he figured out Bruce was Batman, and yes, that includes the seduction in the kitchen between Garcia and Sophia.

That's your opinion. Most people thought TDKR was a great movie. Most people thought Godfather III was not. I actually loved Godfather III. It's my second favorite. I still find TDKR a much more interesting and exciting movie on pretty much every level.

The reasons you can't find for certain elements of the plot are your own problem. Some people have an harder time understanding and accepting certain things than others. That's to be expected. I have no issue with anything you said about the plot. It works fine enough for me.

 

[rogbngp]

I enjoyed Krypton's post. I was able to willingly suspend disbelief for the things he criticizes about TDKR, and I even contrived a few plausible explanations in my head to help with that. I wanted to be entertained by the film, so that's what I unconsciously did to achieve that, I guess. Krypton's critique of TDKR is a good illustration that if we really wanted to we could dissect any CBM for plotholes and failures of realism. But I have to agree that, if we stop to think about it, it really doesn't work well that Bane would allow the police to live. For the reasons that Krypton cites.

And I was struck by the illogic too of Bane having this fantasy that what he is doing would unite anyone under him! The 9-11 analogy was spot on, Krypton.

Here's how I reckon it: Have we considered the possibility that Bane is truly insane, but organized enough to pull off what he does? I think he's mad as a hatter at the core--but dangerously well organized to carry out his schemes. I see him as subjecting the world to a kind of grandiose psychotic nightmare. Sort of like Vlad the Impaler having a fantasy that his subjects will come to love him over time, despite his atrocities. Maybe Bane has studied how brainwashing has worked with totalitarian and fascistic regimes, and believes that he will eventually convert the great majority of the masses given enough time.

 

[Evil]

I enjoyed Krypton's post. I was able to willingly suspend disbelief for the things he criticizes about TDKR, and I even contrived a few plausible explanations in my head to help with that. I wanted to be entertained by the film, so that's what I unconsciously did to achieve that, I guess. Krypton's critique of TDKR is a good illustration that if we really wanted to we could dissect any CBM for plotholes and failures of realism. But I have to agree that, if we stop to think about it, it really doesn't work well that Bane would allow the police to live. For the reasons that Krypton cites.

And I was struck by the illogic too of Bane having this fantasy that what he is doing would unite anyone under him! The 9-11 analogy was spot on, Krypton.

Here's how I reckon it: Have we considered the possibility that Bane is truly insane, but organized enough to pull off what he does? I think he's mad as a hatter at the core--but dangerously well organized to carry out his schemes. I see him as subjecting the world to a kind of grandiose psychotic nightmare. Sort of like Vlad the Impaler having a fantasy that his subjects will come to love him over time, despite his atrocities. Maybe Bane as studied how brainwashing has worked with totalitarian and fascistic regimes, and believes that he will eventually convert the vast majority of the masses given enough time.

I don't think Bane keeping the cops alive qualifies as a plot hole. The League of Shadows is a cult, for those who don't know. Cults don't necessarily act according to logic.

 

[BH/HHH]

I don't tend to let stuff like that bother me in a film like people complain about all the cops going into the sewer etc but it never bothered me.

 

[rogbngp]

I don't think Bane keeping the cops alive qualifies as a plot hole. The League of Shadows is a cult, for those who don't know. Cults don't necessarily act according to logic.

Yeah, I rationalized it myself for the reasons that I gave, although I didn't fully extend the thinking specifically to letting the police live. In Bane's deluded plan perhaps once he feels he has first broken society's spirit and gotten them to submit, he will then show a more benevolent side which he could illustrate with the police (who he would eventually brainwash and make loyal to him, increasing buy-in from the every day citizen).

In the animal kingdom, an alpha maintains authority as leader not just by dominating rivals with brute force, but also be serving as a good provider for the pack or pride. Bane would have to show mercy and giving people things they need at some points, eventually; unless he is so mad that he's out of touch with it.

 

[BH/HHH]

One of the biggest complaints I hear of TDKR is how Bane is killed so easily by Catwoman but I thought that was a great moment. Infact I remember that got a huge laugh in the cinema when I saw it back in the day.

 

[rogbngp]

One of the biggest complaints I hear of TDKR is how Bane is killed so easily by Catwoman but I thought that was a great moment. Infact I remember that got a huge laugh in the cinema when I saw it back in the day.

Yeah, that oddly kind of worked for me too! She was no slouch.

I mean, we know Bane has to be defeated and that he's probably going to die. Does Batman have to be the one to do it every time? How many ways can he creatively let the villain die without actually killing him by his own hand? Anyway, it was strangely alright with me the Selena delivers the coup de grâce with the missile from the Batcycle.

Selena says to Batman something like (paraphrasing) "I really think you oughta re-think this no-guns rule!" Anyway, she has no compunction about it. There's a sort of acknowledgement there that in a realistic world, no-guns and no-kill would not really be sustainable.

Makes me think of this!:

[YT]ua_TZ84hmEA[/YT]

 

[Greens]

I don't have a big problem with the scene, but it is kind of stupid that we don't hear the Batpod at all until it's right there in the room.

 

[rogbngp]

I don't have a big problem with the scene, but it is kind of stupid that we don't hear the Batpod at all until it's right there in the room.

Yeah, that is a bit of artistic license for dramatic effect, for sure.

 

[The Joker]

I don't think Bane keeping the cops alive qualifies as a plot hole. The League of Shadows is a cult, for those who don't know. Cults don't necessarily act according to logic.

I agree. You can question his logic as to why he did it, but a plot hole it's not.

I don't have a big problem with the scene, but it is kind of stupid that we don't hear the Batpod at all until it's right there in the room.

You know that never even crossed my mind.

I mean considering there was a huge free for all going on right outside with the Cops and Bane's mercenaries, not hearing the Bat-Pod drive in isn't an unbelievable issue IMO. How likely would you be to notice it with that going on, not to mention Tumblers driving around outside, too. It wasn't like Catwoman drove it half way into the room unnoticed and then shot Bane. She was parked in front of the doorway. So she literally pulled up at the door and shot him.

 

[Omegabat]

"The police shall survive as long as they learn to serve true justice", Bane literally just spelled out his reasons.
This statement makes it clear that he's trying to convince people that the police too are merely pawns. He cant just kill a few thousand people and just get away with it,they had families and more importantly people would've risen in revolt regardless of the nuke threat because you just cant get away with a mass atrocity like that.
They were all going to die anyway,total annihilation was the ultimate plan to begin with,they just wanted to torture Bruce because of petty revenge.

 

[Evil]

I would be interesting in seeing a list of real plot holes from TDKR. But i'm talking about real plot HOLES. You not understanding something or not liking something or not agreeing with something, is not a plot hole.

My theory regarding the batpod thing, even tough you could maybe qualify it as a small mistake, is that she fired from a certain distance. She fired before being inside the building, and in the next shot is when she arrives, hence you not hearing it. It's not a big deal, to be honest.

 

[The Batman]

MOS is the Fredo to TDKR's Michael. Neither is Vito, but oh well.

Great analogy.

I understand that people have differing opinions, but I'm not going to lie: its one thing to like or hate both TDKR and MOS. It's one thing to like one more than the other....but it is utterly baffling to me how people will nitpick the crap out of TDKR, but downplay the flaws of MOS and get bent out of shape whenever people bring those flaws up.

*Inb4"welldatzjusuropinionthebatman"*

 

[rogbngp]

I would be interesting in seeing a list of real plot holes from TDKR. But i'm talking about real plot HOLES. You not understanding something or not liking something or not agreeing with something, is not a plot hole.

My theory regarding the batpod thing, even tough you could maybe qualify it as a small mistake, is that she fired from a certain distance. She fired before being inside the building, and in the next shot is when she arrives, hence you not hearing it. It's not a big deal, to be honest.

Maybe using a heat seeking missile that locked onto its target (Bane)... although that would be pretty damn risky for Batman.

Come to think of it, though, firing a missile into Bane with Batman right next to the target was hella risky for Bats no matter how you slice it! One can only take realism so far, I guess.

 

[BH/HHH]

I tell you the one thing I cannot understand people liking (not saying they shouldn't) but that voice for Bane, I think it's utterly ridiculous sounding and I have no idea why Nolan chose that.

 

[The Joker]

The only time Bane's voice sounded bad was in the opening scene with the plane heist.

 

[rogbngp]

I posted this in the TDKR forum once but, the discussion of Bane reminds me of this again. Bane is for me one of the most original film villains I have ever seen--and I love the character for that. I know nothing of the comic book character, so I'm unfettered by an notions of what he is "supposed" to be like from the comics or animated TV series or films. He is to me an eerie combination of evil, psychotic, and organized. I think his grandiose delusions are an important part of appreciating the character.

He reminds me a little bit of a character that Marlon Brando played in the 1976 offbeat western Missouri Breaks, named by Lee Clayton. He was of a similar type, at least in terms of appearing to basically be psychotic (I think the suggestion in the film was that he had multiple personalities) and yet he was very cunning, a master strategist, hugely charismatic (with a sense of humor), and utterly ruthless. Clayton was a "regulator" hired to hunt down cattle thieves.

I love the originality of characters like this. When I saw Bane on screen for the first time, I was like "Whoa!" I'd never seen anything like that before.

 

[rogbngp]

I dig Bane's voice! It's the main thing that makes him so original. He is this sort of grandiose, erudite, intellectual... monster. The voice is what makes it all happen.