BvS The Flash Point Explained

[LamboMan]

Ah what the heck, I might as well post this on this forum too, since I'm sure someone will find it interesting or like it. If you're reading this and can't post a positive response kindly refrain from replying. That is merely a suggestion, please don't take it personally.

I feel it's the best explanation I can come up with for this largely misunderstood event.

Just want to have a place where we can discuss this event on it's own.

I also made accompaniment pictures to further explain the chain of events visually and succinctly too. (Open the images in a new tab for full size.)


Here goes:


0. Bruce begins the decryption and since it's taking time, he seems to have dozed off. We jump forwards in time to the Knightmare scene. This is all within Timeline A.

1. The scene shows us a future, where Lois has died, Superman has gone rogue and Darkseid rules the Earth. Batman is living on the lam with a group of followers and trying to get Kryptonite to take out Superman who is now evil. The movie actually jumps forward in time, it doesn't just show a 'possible' future or a 'dream' sequence, it shows an actual future that IS HAPPENING as we watch it, in Timeline A.


2. This shows us that he doesn't have access to Kryptonite in Timeline A and possibly NEVER had access to Kryptonite in Timeline A and so he couldn't take out Superman before and then Superman somehow lost Lois and went rogue in that future. We don't know what events happened to lead us to that point, but they were obviously very different from what happened in the movie, therefore ANYTHING that happens after the Flash turns up cannot be considered as part of that Timeline A and we can be assured that different events took place as opposed to the events in the movie after that point. Barry meets Bruce in this timeline at some point before the Knightmare event.


3. Batman is killed by Superman at the end of the Knightmare event, ending Bruce's consciousness in Timeline A. That is the last thing Bruce's memory holds from Timeline A.

4. The Flash travels back to the present from AFTER Batman dies in Timeline A to deliver a message to Bruce who is still in Timeline A but in the past so that he can avoid that future, where he dies.

5. The Flash enters the past and the events after that point begin to collapse. Timeline A is COLLAPSING upon itself to converge at the Flash Point. Future Bruce is merging with present Bruce.


6. Bruce wakes up startled from his 'Knightmare' when he dies since those memories are residual from that timeline that has just CHANGED by the appearance of the Flash and since it is the last thing he remembers from that Timeline A. You can see that he has actually 'dreamt' of his death at the hands of Superman since he is holding his chest in pain or shock from those residual memories. The Timeline A is collapsing onto itself at this point, therefore Bruce has residual memories from his future self from just before his death. This is all due to the occurrence of the Flash Point and it's accompanying effects.


7. Flash and Bruce apparently know each other very well in that future of Timeline A which is now collapsing, rendering that event void. Hence Flash says, "Am I too soon? I'm too soon!" when he sees that Bruce is confused and doesn't recognize him or understand what is going on since he created the Flash Point before they ever met.

8. After Flash delivers his message Bruce gains new information and two things change in Timeline A:

a. Batman learns that Superman is a completely assured threat and acknowledges it (1% chance dialogue after this event).
b. He learns that he MUST get the Kryptonite to stop Superman or else he WILL fail. He remembers his failure(death) from the Knightmare event.

9. As soon as Bruce goes through this event and the Flash leaves, the timeline RESETS itself to that point, the Flash Point, and so Bruce wakes up from his sleep again JUST as the portal closes and the Flash leaves Timeline A, which is now becoming/transitioning into Timeline B. The future from Timeline A is totally eliminated and a new Timeline B is formed from that point onward but Bruce still retains those residual memories since he was the flux point or inflection point (common factor/human observer) of that event.

He also remembers the Flash Point and the Flash's appearance since he immediately looks around in the direction of the portal when he wakes up again.

The portal closing is the only common event between Timelines A and B and therefore we see its residual effects in the form of the falling papers in Timeline B.

10. THIS EVENT of the Flash appearing and making Bruce acknowledge the threat and his need for Kryptonite, changes the future and that ripple effect leads to the chain of events seen in the rest of the film which culminates in Lois not dying and Superman dying. Batman gets the Kryptonite and makes a spear out of it. That allows Superman to kill Doomsday but he ends up dying in the process.

TL;DR

If it still isn't clear, I'll repeat and summarise:

In Timeline A Bruce meets the Flash at some point and DOES NOT obtain Kryptonite and thus fails to attack Superman who then kills him. Then the Flash goes back in time to warn Bruce that he was right about Superman going bad and to help him avoid his death. The Timeline A was changed at first by the very act of the Flash appearing and creating the Flash Point and Bruce kept his memories from the future due to the effects of the Flash appearing and creating a timeline distortion. He dreams of the future DUE TO THE VERY FACT that the Flash appears and changes the timeline. Then when Flash leaves and Bruce has new information and a new conviction which means new actions and a different future, the Timeline A resets/collapses to the Flash Point and a new Timeline B is formed from that point onward, with completely new events. It seems that the event of the portal closing is the only common event in both timelines (because that was the exact moment the Timeline reset from A to become B) and therefore we can see the papers flying about when Bruce wakes up the second time, which he did because he was reset too.

In Timeline B Batman gets the Kryptonite, creates the spear and attacks Superman who later uses it to kill Doomsday since there was no other way and ends up dying himself.



FIN. Whew.




PS: Here's something really interesting that I just found out thanks to a user on the other forum where I posted this article originally:

Jay Olivia of DC Animated movies who worked with Zack on the scene says:

And after working on the Knightmare sequence with director Zack Snyder, Oliva offered up his own explanation on the Hall of Justice Podcast as to what the ‘dream sequence’ really means:

“You want to know the answer? Okay… you’ve watched The Flashpoint Paradox, my movie, right? In the DC Universe in the comics, there’s this thing where– it’s a little different than the Back to The Future thing where you can go back in time and change your threads and stuff, but in DC, when you go back in time you create this kind of ‘Time Boom’ kind of thing where lots of things change.

“Okay, so let me just tell you this. Again… I don’t know if this is Zack’s thinking, but this is mine: what if that isn’t a dream sequence? What if what you saw was a Time Boom, a latent memory from the future when Flash comes back? If you look at the cut, he doesn’t go to sleep! He’s waiting for the [Lexcorp file decryption] and suddenly this [Knightmare sequence] comes in, and he’s jogged out of it seeing his own death. And what does he see? He sees Flash. And if you’re a DC fan, you know what’s happening. You know that Flash going back in time, that memory is now coming back to him… mind you, it’s jumbled.”

Except for the Batman not sleeping off part, my explanation is the exact same one!

Sure, that's his own interpretation of the events but it's from an official DC honcho and one who worked on the scene.

 

[King23DC]

Precisely why all the gimmicky dream sequences, and multiverse stuff is absolute crap. When that whole scene went down, everyone in the theater was all WTF. Such poor, poor convoluted yet meaningless script writing. Waste of a long, pointless AF scene.

 

[AndrewGilkison]

The Knightmare sequence impact is also kind of nullified by the fact that Bruce Wayne has two other dream sequences in the movie with WTF imagery ([BLACKOUT]bats lifting him out of a cave after we his parents die for the billionth time, him going to his dead mothers tomb and being attacked by manbat[/BLACKOUT]) that the knightmare scene feels like the third bad dream Bruce Wayne has in the movie instead of the big moment it should've been.

There are like three bad dreams Bruce Wayne has in this movie that don't amount to anything.

 

[wnjcwjkk]

Well thought out and explained, man, and nice job with the diagram. My thoughts when I first saw that scene (and I think this is what you're saying too)


There is an ORIGINAL TIMELINE in which Bruce never sees The Flash that leads all the way up to the Knightmare sequence and Bruce's death.

At some point in the ORIGINAL TIMELINE, The Flash goes back in time and sees Bruce (the scene between the two in BvS). This causes the ORIGINAL TIMELINE to be possibly erased, and the events after this scene are part of an ALTERNATE TIMELINE (at this exact moment, Bruce has residual memories of the Original Timeline).


Now, where is the Alternate Timeline heading? We don't know. Did Batman and Superman make up in the Original Timeline? Did Superman die in the Doomsday fight? Has Flash actually changed anything? I don't think his brief message to Bruce Wayne was enough to change the future from the Darkseid hell that we witnessed, he's gonna have to do more than that, but I think that moment between Bruce and Flash is going to an important piece of the puzzle.


Sorry if I just completely stated the obvious, just trying to condense and process what you said.

 

[wnjcwjkk]

The Knightmare sequence impact is also kind of nullified by the fact that Bruce Wayne has two other dream sequences in the movie with WTF imagery ([BLACKOUT]bats lifting him out of a cave after we his parents die for the billionth time, him going to his dead mothers tomb and being attacked by manbat[/BLACKOUT]) that the knightmare scene feels like the third bad dream Bruce Wayne has in the movie instead of the big moment it should've been.

There are like three bad dreams Bruce Wayne has in this movie that don't amount to anything.

What is the other dream besides the opening where his parents are killed?



Just a possibility, but what if those are more than dreams, but are also connected to the time travel? For example, probably not the case, but if in the future, Flash (or Bruce and Flash) travelled back to the time his parents were killed, for whatever reason, and had to make the choice to allow it to happen, so that Bruce becomes Batman, and is able to kill Darkseid or whatever he has to do.



Idk, I like time travel, I could get down with them getting all kinds of convoluted with that shizz, but probably a good idea to keep it simple.



COMPLETELY UNRELATED LOST SEMI SPOILER:

For example, a big missed opportunity on Lost was to have a big moment in the first or second season that was directly tied to the time travel in Season 4. A mystery like "Who was that in the woods who saved Kate's life in Season 2?" Then it turns out "Oh snap, it was Sawyer from the future!" Or Sawyer saves Kate in S01E23, but then acts like he has no memory of it, and then you find out he had no memory of it because he hadn't done it yet. But that's a whole different thing, sorry.

 

[wnjcwjkk]

Also, I bought this up in the Open Discussion, too, but I was thinking with the time travel, they have the possibility to retcon some of the things that people didn't like in BvS, like Clark Kent's public death for example. Similar to the X-Men franchise. I'm fine with it the way it is, but so many people aren't, that it could be a way to change people's minds on the DCEU moving forward.

 

[King23DC]

The Knightmare sequence impact is also kind of nullified by the fact that Bruce Wayne has two other dream sequences in the movie with WTF imagery ([BLACKOUT]bats lifting him out of a cave after we his parents die for the billionth time, him going to his dead mothers tomb and being attacked by manbat[/BLACKOUT]) that the knightmare scene feels like the third bad dream Bruce Wayne has in the movie instead of the big moment it should've been.

There are like three bad dreams Bruce Wayne has in this movie that don't amount to anything.

WTF imagery galore.

The second young Bruce was levitated by Bat Tornado ... I immediately winced, looked at my gf with a face palm like expression, and right then knew I was headed on a bumpy ride with my favorite character.

People get upset that they did the Waynes death again, but the bigger idiotic decision was why even do the scene of him encountering the bats for the first time?

When it was just done so vividly, in such an iconic way, not ten years ago?

 

[Jaxon]

What is the other dream besides the opening where his parents are killed?

.

There's the bit where he's in the family mausoleum and a creature bat comes at him from Martha Kent's grave.

The other is the conversation with Clark and his dad, but that is just a memory he's having not really a dream.

 

[IronManHype]

WTF imagery galore.

The second young Bruce was levitated by Bat Tornado ... I immediately winced, looked at my gf with a face palm like expression, and right then knew I was headed on a bumpy ride with my favorite character.

People get upset that they did the Waynes death again, but the bigger idiotic decision was why even do the scene of him encountering the bats for the first time?

When it was just done so vividly, in such an iconic way, not ten years ago?

Same thing happened with me and my roommate.

While the OP's post was interesting, the "Knightmare" sequence felt so out of place and odd in a movie that was so out of place and odd, that I didn't really care about anything I saw.

 

[LamboMan]

The Knightmare sequence impact is also kind of nullified by the fact that Bruce Wayne has two other dream sequences in the movie with WTF imagery ([BLACKOUT]bats lifting him out of a cave after we his parents die for the billionth time, him going to his dead mothers tomb and being attacked by manbat[/BLACKOUT]) that the knightmare scene feels like the third bad dream Bruce Wayne has in the movie instead of the big moment it should've been.

There are like three bad dreams Bruce Wayne has in this movie that don't amount to anything.

WTF imagery galore.

The second young Bruce was levitated by Bat Tornado ... I immediately winced, looked at my gf with a face palm like expression, and right then knew I was headed on a bumpy ride with my favorite character.

People get upset that they did the Waynes death again, but the bigger idiotic decision was why even do the scene of him encountering the bats for the first time?

When it was just done so vividly, in such an iconic way, not ten years ago?

Here are your answers, I wrote this article a month ago and posted it on this forum and now it's also on Moviepilot with pictures so you might want to give it a read there instead:

This has pictures: moviepilot.com/posts/3895267

This is the original thread here on SHH without pictures: http://forums.superherohype.com/showthread.php?t=512399

Well thought out and explained, man, and nice job with the diagram. My thoughts when I first saw that scene (and I think this is what you're saying too)

There is an ORIGINAL TIMELINE in which Bruce never sees The Flash that leads all the way up to the Knightmare sequence and Bruce's death.

At some point in the ORIGINAL TIMELINE, The Flash goes back in time and sees Bruce (the scene between the two in BvS). This causes the ORIGINAL TIMELINE to be possibly erased, and the events after this scene are part of an ALTERNATE TIMELINE (at this exact moment, Bruce has residual memories of the Original Timeline).

Now, where is the Alternate Timeline heading? We don't know. Did Batman and Superman make up in the Original Timeline? Did Superman die in the Doomsday fight? Has Flash actually changed anything? I don't think his brief message to Bruce Wayne was enough to change the future from the Darkseid hell that we witnessed, he's gonna have to do more than that, but I think that moment between Bruce and Flash is going to an important piece of the puzzle.

Sorry if I just completely stated the obvious, just trying to condense and process what you said.

Hi! Thanks for your response! I'm glad you liked it.

Yeah, you totally got it correctly. That's exactly what I was trying to say!

The Original Timeline is A, the Alternate Timeline is B, totally correct.

And yes, the Original Timeline is wiped out and Flash met Bruce only much after the decryption of data takes place.

 

[DCW]

Thanks for the explanation, I'm not at all familiar with Flash point so I was pretty confused by that part in the movie. This really cleared it up for me.

 

[LamboMan]

Thanks for the explanation, I'm not at all familiar with Flash point so I was pretty confused by that part in the movie. This really cleared it up for me.

Thanks for the appreciation, glad you like it!

The name 'Flashpoint' has been taken from the Flashpoint Paradox story line, which also involves the Flash time travelling to change an apocalyptic future, but doesn't share any other similarity to the even seen in the movie.

I just took that name and applied it to this event since it sounds cool and is similar in a way.

 

[Spiderdevil]

Congratulations, you have now put more thought into this than Snyder and Terrio did for the whole movie

 

[sf2]

Congratulations, you have now put more thought into this than Snyder and Terrio did for the whole movie

isn't it very educating? and it makes our thinking better!!!

 

[LamboMan]

isn't it very educating? and it makes our thinking better!!!

 

[Overman27pj]

Congratulations, you have now put more thought into this than Snyder and Terrio did for the whole movie

My thoughts exactly. You may be totally crazy, but you are totally crazy in an interesting, fun, kind of way. Also, you still make more sense than this movie.

 

[TheBat812]

Interesting post, I dig it. Main thing I wonder, and I'm not too sure on the timing on this, but wasn't Bruce already trying to get the Kryptonite before this?

 

[aNarcHy2day]

Interesting post, I dig it. Main thing I wonder, and I'm not too sure on the timing on this, but wasn't Bruce already trying to get the Kryptonite before this?

He was. But let's not let that get in the way of a nice theory.

 

[NateHevens]

Interesting post, I dig it. Main thing I wonder, and I'm not too sure on the timing on this, but wasn't Bruce already trying to get the Kryptonite before this?

That's actually a really good question, because... how did Bruce even know about it in the first place? How did he even know about kryptonite?

 

[Vortigern99]

The opening post nicely details my own (admittedly vaguer) thoughts regarding the Knightmare and its significance in the story. It plays like a WTF dream sequence but, because of the shifting of papers blown by the closing if the time portal, we know the Flash's visit was real. It follows that what Flash says is true and valid: If Lois dies AND if Batman does not find kryptonite and stop him, Superman will go off the rails and become some kind of god-king serving under Darkseid. Therefore the 1% speech (so deeply criticized as stupid and paranoid and emotional and non-Batman-like by detractors of this film) makes perfect sense because Batman has personally witnessed what will happen if Superman is not stopped (and if Lois dies).

This also clarifies the Martha moment, because Batman believed (from the memory/vision) that Superman was an uncaring psychopath. Given Kal's behavior in that alternate future, who could blame him? Yet when Superman confides that he cares for a mere human being and does not want her to die, this places the vision further into perspective. Killing the people that Superman loves might cause a psychotic break. Therefore Martha needs to be saved so that Supes will continue being a caring and compassionate being.

 

[LamboMan]

Interesting post, I dig it. Main thing I wonder, and I'm not too sure on the timing on this, but wasn't Bruce already trying to get the Kryptonite before this?

That's actually a really good question, because... how did Bruce even know about it in the first place? How did he even know about kryptonite?

Gonna quote myself from the NEW POSITIVITY thread 'cos I went over this and figured it out there but forgot to add it here:

Bruce tells Alfred that, "It's a weapon, a rock, capable of weakening Kryptonian cells. The first one that was big enough to mean anything turned up in the Indian Ocean, three months ago."

And if we recall the flow of events, the first scene after the MoS battle is the discovery of Kryptonite in the ocean. Then later, after that scene, we see Batman interrogating that goon who he brands but at that point he is asking him WHO, and not WHAT the WP is. We know this because the goon answers, "I don't know who he is, I don't know who he is."

So going by this flow of events, I now feel it would be safe to assume that Bruce DID know about the Kryptonite and what it can do since he could have possibly gained that information from USAMRIID, but most probably didn't know that LexCorp was involved since the research happened at the AMRIID facility instead of LexCorp, which was just taking a copy of that research for themselves.

This means that Bruce WAS in fact lying to Alfred about the 'dirty bomb' for some time.

Bruce would probably have come across mentions of the White Portuguese during his investigation into Kryptonite and it's location, and it would have lead him to assume that the WP was a buyer of the K-rock.

He didn't actually know it was a ship till he gets Lex's files. And he didn't know that Lex was involved until he cracks Anatoly's phone and gets that info.

So the flow of events goes like this >

1. Kryptonite found in Metropolis rubble by Lex's 'Rebuild Metropolis' crews.
2. Lex performs research via proxy at USAMRIID and gets the results.
3. Batman gets wind of this research and gets to know about Kryptonite and what it can do.
4. Bruce starts investigating the world for more mentions of Kryptonite.
5. Lex has his people searching the World Engine crash site for more Kryptonite.
6. The larger sample of Kryptonite is found in the Indian Ocean.
7. Lex begins the plan to smuggle it into Gotham after he is denied the import license by Finch.
8. The White Portuguese code word is put into effect by Lex who knows it is a ship but other than him and his people, no one knows.
9. Bruce catches wind of the White Portuguese and he thinks that is a buyer of the Kryptonite and so he starts tracking any mentions of the WP.
10. That leads him to the human trafficking goon who leads him to Anatoly.
11. He tracks Anatoly and clones his phone after the boxing match.
12. He finds that Lex is involved and could possibly be the WP.
13. He hacks into Lex's servers and gets the data he was looking for all this time.
14. He begins the decryption.
15. Knightmare happens, he learns that Kryptonite is essential or else he WILL fail (he remembers his death in the Knightmare).
16. He learns that Superman is a confirmed threat and that if there is even a 1% chance from his vision that Superman is a threat, he must take it as a certainty.
17. He wakes up from the Knightmare and goes through Lex's files and learns that the WP is actually a ship and not a person and that Lex was going to import it via sea.
18. He tells Alfred about the ship but doesn't mention the Kryptonite.
19. Alfred who has picked up on the fact that Bruce was lying about the dirty bomb for some time, confronts him with it.
20. Bruce reveals everything to Alfred and then goes to attack the convoy at the port.

Confusion eliminated!

The opening post nicely details my own (admittedly vaguer) thoughts regarding the Knightmare and its significance in the story. It plays like a WTF dream sequence but, because of the shifting of papers blown by the closing if the time portal, we know the Flash's visit was real. It follows that what Flash says is true and valid: If Lois dies AND if Batman does not find kryptonite and stop him, Superman will go off the rails and become some kind of god-king serving under Darkseid. Therefore the 1% speech (so deeply criticized as stupid and paranoid and emotional and non-Batman-like by detractors of this film) makes perfect sense because Batman has personally witnessed what will happen if Superman is not stopped (and if Lois dies).

This also clarifies the Martha moment, because Batman believed (from the memory/vision) that Superman was an uncaring psychopath. Given Kal's behavior in that alternate future, who could blame him? Yet when Superman confides that he cares for a mere human being and does not want her to die, this places the vision further into perspective. Killing the people that Superman loves might cause a psychotic break. Therefore Martha needs to be saved so that Supes will continue being a caring and compassionate being.

Perfect! I like how you put it!

 

[dodong27]

Awesome job on the explanations!!! The more we delve in to BvS, the more I cherish it more and more!

 

[Vortigern99]

Precisely why all the gimmicky dream sequences, and multiverse stuff is absolute crap. When that whole scene went down, everyone in the theater was all WTF. Such poor, poor convoluted yet meaningless script writing. Waste of a long, pointless AF scene.

What you seem to mean by "gimmicky" is that you personally don't understand why it's been included in the movie. Yet the opening post of this thread explains it nicely (if a bit verbosely!).

What you seem to mean by "absolute crap" is that you didn't like the movie. That's your prerogative, but it's worth noting that the majority of members here have rated the film 8-10 on a scale of 10 (see the no-discussion rating thread).

Of course, you cannot possibly know what "everyone in the theater" was thinking during this scene. If you did, you'd be a superhero. Or a supervillain. Your choice, of course!

By "convoluted", "meaningless" and "poor" you seem to mean you didn't follow the plot or find it moving or powerful. I, on the other hand, did, and there are many who agree with me. Introducing iconic super-powered characters into a real-world scenario, and then exploring how that would affect their behavior and their worldview, is fascinating and powerful, in my view.

I will grant that some of the plot is difficult to follow on first viewing. Certain clarifying lines of dialogue may be missed in the sturm und drang, and the purpose of the Knightmare scene, among others, may be difficult to fathom at first blush. But repeat viewings clarify the plot; I assure you it's all there on-screen. It's not convoluted, but it is complex and multi-layered. And thoughtful posts like LamboMan's help us disentangle those layers.

 

[aNarcHy2day]

What you seem to mean by "gimmicky" is that you personally don't understand why it's been included in the movie. Yet the opening post of this thread explains it nicely (if a bit verbosely!).

What you seem to mean by "absolute crap" is that you didn't like the movie. That's your prerogative, but it's worth noting that the majority of members here have rated the film 8-10 on a scale of 10 (see the no-discussion rating thread).

Of course, you cannot possibly know what "everyone in the theater" was thinking during this scene. If you did, you'd be a superhero. Or a supervillain. Your choice, of course!

By "convoluted", "meaningless" and "poor" you seem to mean you didn't follow the plot or find it moving or powerful. I, on the other hand, did, and there are many who agree with me. Introducing iconic super-powered characters into a real-world scenario, and then exploring how that would affect their behavior and their worldview, is fascinating and powerful, in my view.

I will grant that some of the plot is difficult to follow on first viewing. Certain clarifying lines of dialogue may be missed in the sturm und drang, and the purpose of the Knightmare scene, among others, may be difficult to fathom at first blush. But repeat viewings clarify the plot; I assure you it's all there on-screen. It's not convoluted, but it is complex and multi-layered. And thoughtful posts like LamboMan's help us disentangle those layers.

I'll tell you what... There are certain parts in the movie that don't make sense and simply want the audience to suspend their disbelief (as do many other movies) and trying to find reason in those events is a thankless exercise.

Then there are certain things that are, either by design or just bad storytelling, made to be scarce on first viewing and probably dictated a second viewing to make sense.

The problem is that once the audience begins to try and unravel what is happening and hits one of the more nonsensical plot points they probably conclude that the entire thing is the same and don't invest in it any more.

That is my hypothesis backed by a rather sharp second weekend BO drop.

Now, I can give the film props for trying to be deeper than a popcorn flick and I personally like that-I liked BvS in general though it was a bit underwhelming- but I don't think Snyder is a good enough storyteller to pull that off.

Make no mistake, I am a 'Snyder Guy'. I watched Sucker Punch and Ga'Hoole for the sole reason that Snyder had directed them and then watched them a few more times but I don't live under a rock. I do recognize his flaws and he just did a really poor job at hiding them in BvS.

 

[LamboMan]

What you seem to mean by "gimmicky" is that you personally don't understand why it's been included in the movie. Yet the opening post of this thread explains it nicely (if a bit verbosely!).

What you seem to mean by "absolute crap" is that you didn't like the movie. That's your prerogative, but it's worth noting that the majority of members here have rated the film 8-10 on a scale of 10 (see the no-discussion rating thread).

Of course, you cannot possibly know what "everyone in the theater" was thinking during this scene. If you did, you'd be a superhero. Or a supervillain. Your choice, of course!

By "convoluted", "meaningless" and "poor" you seem to mean you didn't follow the plot or find it moving or powerful. I, on the other hand, did, and there are many who agree with me. Introducing iconic super-powered characters into a real-world scenario, and then exploring how that would affect their behavior and their worldview, is fascinating and powerful, in my view.

I will grant that some of the plot is difficult to follow on first viewing. Certain clarifying lines of dialogue may be missed in the sturm und drang, and the purpose of the Knightmare scene, among others, may be difficult to fathom at first blush. But repeat viewings clarify the plot; I assure you it's all there on-screen. It's not convoluted, but it is complex and multi-layered. And thoughtful posts like LamboMan's help us disentangle those layers.

Thanks mate!