The funny thing about youth...(a message to teens everywhere)

[Chris Wallace]

What Chris said.

I, for one, have a 12 year old daughter. She does, in fact behave like she is entitled to damn near everything. Her mother and I do everything possible to give her everything she needs, and most of what she wants. However, she still balks at the slightest amount of responsibility. She get's pissed off when she get punished for not doing the things she's asked to do. She does act, for time to time, that it is not her fault she broke the rules, bur rather my fault for putting the rules in place. Just like Chris said. Bottom line, I am doing my best to teach her right from wrong, teach her how to prepare for the real world, and teach her that just because she feels entitled to something, she's not necessarily going to get it, because, she may not actually be entitled to it.

You are really strengthening the perception that one has to live with the situation in order to truly comprehend it.

 

[Chris Wallace]

I think you've got the idea backwards, in a way. You say that kids shouldn't expect to be respected if they don't show respect. That respect and trust are two way streets. That is true. And yet you also seem to ignore that fact. Kids shouldn't expect to be respected or trusted if they do not respect or trust, this is true. But at the same time, adults can't expect to be respected or trusted if they do not show respect or trust. Respect and trust are two way streets. And kids, they're at a disadvantage. Where do you think they learn respect and trust? Do you think it just magically appears. That they should simply be enlightened to the fact that their parents work hard and deserve their respect out of nowhere? Hardly. You learn from your experience. And kids are going to have an incredibly hard time learning to respect and trust others if their parents and other adult figures in their lives never show them respect or trust.

The next thing your said, about rules, it's a bit of a strawman argument. I never said that there aren't rules outside of school or family households. I never said that schools or family households shouldn't have rules. What I said is that kids don't get respect or anywhere near as much freedom as they deserve. That doesn't say "life without rules." I'm not an anarchist. I believe in democracy. Obviously, there will be things you have to do at any job you take. There are things you have to do in American society. But trying to control how a kid lives their life and expecting them to follow orders without question, this does not prepare them for the future.

You then say that you can't expect kids to choose for themselves because that way lies chaos. That, that is really condescending. Kids are smart. Kids are naturally curious. Yes, they need rules of some kind. They need to face consequences for their actions if they **** up. I'm not advocating for the opposite. But kids do deserve respect and as much personal freedom as we allow anyone. Kids deserve the ability to have an open conversation with their parents. Kids deserve the right to choose how they spend their time, as long as certain rules to insure that other people's rights are not infringed upon are kept to. You know what they'll learn if they're given more control over their lives? Responsibility. They'll learn how to take care of themselves. They'll learn what they need to do to get by on a day to day basis, because they won't have mommy or teacher holding their hand. Yes, kids need guidance. They also need to be listened to. Talked to like people, not lesser beings. And if they want to do something that doesn't hurt anyone else or themselves, they should do it.

1-you keep acting like I'm some kind of Nazi toward the kid when NOTHING can be further from the truth. If anything i think I've gone TOO easy on him up until now, or he'd know not to pull the kind of crap he's been pulling lately. Because a kid will do whatever he/she thinks they can get away with. But I don't mistreat or abuse him-verbally or otherwise. I don't have 1,000 rules. I don't get mad over silly little stuff. I don't deny him much of ANYTHING. I don't bark orders like Jonah Jameson. But when I present rules & instructions nicely he reacts as if I am a Nazi. Saying "no" is the ultimate injustice in his mind. And what I'm dealing with isn't an isolated incident, it's actually become rather commonplace. I've been observing it in numerous households for a while. And what E-Man said about disrespect isn't true either; adults aren't changing the definition of disrespect. Kids are simply doing more things that qualify.
A household cannot be a democracy. It can't. It is a dictatorship. The leaders of the household are not elected. They are self-appointed and cannot be overthrown. The final say on household policies must, will, and should always be theirs. Why? Because they pay the cost to be the boss. Because they know what's best far better than a kid ever will. And again, if you give a child the privelege of voicing their opinion then they should do so respectfully, and with the full knowledge that the final say will still be yours.
You think I don't give kids enough credit. I think you don't give parents enough credit. I dare you to go through just a week of what Mal'Akai & I have described & THEN tell me what you think. I PROMISE you you'd be singing a different tune.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

Unless you live alone on a deserted island, you will always be living under someone else's rules. Your response has also shown just how little you've grown up over the years. Your initial comment came across as a disgruntled teenager *****ing about his mommy busting him for crap he really had no business doing in the first place, and being so strict that she punished him for not getting good grades. My comments do not mean that I am the kind of person who would be happy in prison because they have all those rules, but rather a person who understands that if I did something to deserve being sent to prison, I would be *****ing and whining about they're rules.

Bottom line, when you are a teenager, living under mom and dad's roof, you live by they're rules. Once you have kids, which I'm pretty certain you don't, you will understand this point a whole lot more.

No you don't have to live on a deserted island to live by your own rules. Many people live by their own house rules in the privacy of their own home as long as they don't hurt others.

Thanks for calling me immature and a whiner for simply stating I'd prefer to be able to do adult things without someone else micromanaging my life decisions.

I know you're supposed to live by your parents rules when living on their property. But unless you enjoy being an obedient dog or a complacent machine why would you want to go back to having your life dictated to you?

Again. Not whining, just making a point.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

With that logic, if you're ever picked up and interrogated for murder you might as well go out and kill someone? After all, you've already gone through the torment!

Murder is an extreme example. I simply cannot relate to that.

A better example is someone who is tortured for being part of a rebel force when they had nothing to do with it. That person may be motivated to join the rebel forces in the future because they understand the unfair persecution by the dictatorship.

You contradict yourself one sentence after another? You don't have a problem with your parents molding you into their ideal person, but you have a problem with people molding you into their idea of an ideal person? You're right, it is a parent's job. To keep you safe and teach you right from wrong. Of course they are going to use their ideals to guide those teachings, who's else would they use? They can only use the knowledge they have from growing up themselves. You really would rather them try and mold you based on today's youth's ideals? How would they know what that is?

I'm not contradicting myself. It's like saying you understand why prison has strict rules but you wouldn't want to live there.

I'm not saying it's wrong to guide a child using your own ideals but rather I prefer not to be forced to to have the same ideals as another person. I prefer seeking my own path without being managed by another. Parents may be justified in their actions but that doesn't mean I would go back to being a kid. Adulthood is far better IMO.

 

[The Question]

With that logic, if you're ever picked up and interrogated for murder you might as well go out and kill someone? After all, you've already gone through the torment!



You contradict yourself one sentence after another? You don't have a problem with your parents molding you into their ideal person, but you have a problem with people molding you into their idea of an ideal person? You're right, it is a parent's job. To keep you safe and teach you right from wrong. Of course they are going to use their ideals to guide those teachings, who's else would they use? They can only use the knowledge they have from growing up themselves. You really would rather them try and mold you based on today's youth's ideals? How would they know what that is?



BS. Kids get respect when they earn it. Plenty do. Those that don't continue to buck the system and whine about how they don't get any respect....but it's respect on "their" terms. Things don't work that way.



So, parents shouldn't make rules to prevent their children...their offspring, the ones they are supposed to protect, from doing needlessly destructive things? How does that make sense? Give me a few examples of these rules.




That's the only reason? C'mon. Show me the research that proves this. You mean some of this showboating isn't just that...showboating? Some of it isn't showing off for their friends? Some of it isn't kids simply being unreasonable? Again, please list me some of these woefully unfair rules.



No, it's not a prison. Over dramatic. You can leave if you want to, but there are consequences. So, if schools didn't have these rules (be to class on time, do your homework, don't disrupt class, don't skip class, don't fight, etc.) that kids would be more willing to behave better? I want to live in your utopia, buddy.



??? Or, perhaps they have trouble facing up to responsibility because they are consistently coddled. People today, not just kids, have a sense of entitlement. Of course, this is passed down to their kids. They believe they have the right to say whatever they want, do whatever they want, talk however they want, regardless of if it relevant, disruptive, or abusive. Anyone who chooses to confront them is then portrayed as being oppressive, disrespectful, restrictive. If you don't get out of the way you are sued, called out on youtube, or your children are taken away. Obviously that's not all cases or is even followed through with, but with kids suing parents for taking away their XBOX anything can happen. Because when a child acts up in school and is threatened with suspension Mom and Dad come running in and throw a fit. The school caves and again, no consequences.



What kind of consequences would you suggest? Say, for a 4 year old keeps throwing their toys? Say, for a high school student who constantly mouthes off in class calling the teacher a B***H and such? When a kid walks into a classroom for the first time and starts this kind of crap, the teacher should automatically show them respect? There is a level of respect that all people should be given. The benefit of that doubt that you will be civil. Beyond that, the rest needs to be earned, it's not a given.



That is a unbelievably ignorant statement, borderline racist. It's all inner city, minorities? All gang members? All the suburban kids are just spacey? Show me the statistics. How many of the major school shootings have fit those stereotypes? Please explain the "suburban" gangs we have out here? An anomaly?



BS. It's lack of consequences. People, not just kids, are more often than not given a pass. Everyone is so concerned with not hurting people's feelings, with not getting sued for making someone feel bad, afraid of starting a race riot, afraid of being ridiculed on youtube or facebook, for not doing what Dr. Phil says you should do with your children. I'm not sure what you want to happen. Give me an example of something that you thing was handled badly and how you would rather have it handled?



Yes, respect is a two way street. Everyone should get a certain level of respect to start with. To act civil and to be treated civil. The rest is earned. But where does it start? Between a teenager and an adult, why should the teenager have total respect immediately? Parents are there for THEM. To protect them, to teach them, to help them. Teachers are there to teach them, to lead them, to help them learn. If kids want to accept that, they need to show enough respect let the adults do what they are there for. You don't need to learn. You can drop out and live by your own rules. There's your choice.



Please provide examples of rules that are unreasonably restricting the freedom of kids today.



Enough freedom that we allow adults? What age should this unfettered freedom be granted? 18? 16? Are parents allowed to put a rule on toddlers from putting their fingers on a hot burner or playing with knives? What about a teenager playing with a loaded weapon? Should parents not limit the amount of time their kids play video games, or how many Twinkies they eat? Should they not prevent their children from playing with matches or taking the car out when they are 13? Should parents not be able to tell their kids that they can't have parties or friends over at 3AM in the morning? What are these rules that have you in such an uproar?



Agreed.



What if a 14 year old decides he wants to stay out till 3AM every night and skip school the next day. He's not really infringing on other people's rights....is that OK? What if a 12 year old wants to drink himself stupid?



Really? Or they'll learn that their parents are doormats and will let them do whatever they want. I don't think I've ever met a kid who's parents spoiled them rotten and let them do whatever they wanted who wasn't an arrogant, egocentric jackass.



Well then why even have parents and teachers? If kids can learn all there is to know without the guidance, advice, and rules set by adults in their lives why don't they just move out immediately? Why not just drop out of school?



How does that prepare them for the real world? When you get a job you're going to have a boss that doesn't give a crap if it's not hurting anyone else. If you're not doing your job you're out on your butt. That Cop isn't going to care that you smoking crack isn't hurting anyone but yourself, you're still going to jail. That judge isn't going to think your mouthing off like you did to your teachers is cute, you're just going to be in contempt of court. Kids need to know that there are consequences to actions, even if you don't think you're hurting someone else.....even if you don't think it's fair.

Okay, I'm not going to answer every counter point you made individually because it's a pain in the ass. I don't think I've been especially clear on what I mean, so I'll try and explain:

I don't think kids should live without consequences. I don't think kids should live without rules. I have never said that. What I do think is that kids don't have to be controlled every step of the way. I don't think that, with the slightest amount of freedom, they'd go crazy and start tearing things up. Okay, yeah, some would, but as a whole. There is a middle ground. I think that we, as a society, need to try and stop controlling kids. If a kid says offensive and disrespectful things to people in school, yeah, there should be some kind of consequences. If there's violence of some kind, yes, there should be consequences. But having rules and consequences for breaking those rules does not mean that personal freedoms need to be curtailed as much as they are.

On the issue of respect... I think it's something of a logical fallacy to expect a kid of any age to respect an adult and trust that they have their best interests at heart and listen to everything they have to say, if the kid is not being listened to and their opinions and the things they are going through are in some way being belittled. Yes, respect is a two way street. But respect also has to be learned. And a child is never going to learn to respect others if they regularly feel disrespected. I'm not asking for much. Just for a kid to be listened to and talked to, not talked at. Adults need to engage in active conversation and listening with children. It teaches them respect, trust, and generally good social graces. Hell, most adults need to engage in more active conversation and listening in general, but that's another issue.

Obviously, children have much less experience than adults. So they need guidance. Someone to be there for them, to support them and offer them whatever help they need when they need it, and to make sure that the child understands the consequences of their actions, good or ill. But a guide is not a dictator. I've never understood this "a family is a dictatorship" mentality. A family shouldn't be a dictatorship, a family should be a family. A group of people who care about and support each other. Who understand each other and listen to each other and help each other when they need it. Yes, the elders of the family are the ones who guide the others, that's natural, but if you don't listen to each other and actively engage each other, it's not much of a family. I'm not advocating that parents be pushovers. If they feel strongly about something they should stand their ground. But they should also explain their point of view to their children and have a conversation about it. The very worst thing, I think, a parent can say to a child, is "because I say so." I really do. Because the kid doesn't learn anything. All they learn is either to obey, or to be resentful of their parents, neither of which are particularly valuable lessons.

As for school... I don't want to sound repetitive by saying that they obviously need rules, but yeah. They do. If a kid starts beating up on other kids... well, yes, you get the point. The issue I have with the school system is the very nature of it. I think it's ridiculous that how a child is going to be educated is decided in advance by people who've never met them and have no idea what their actual skills or interests are. I think it's ridiculous that kids have to spend six hours a day where they can't decide how they're going to spend their time and have to follow orders constantly. I think that kids should have the ability to decide how they're going to be educated. Not simply where they go to school, but what they learn there and what their schedule is going to be like. This would teach kids to be self reliant and responsible, by virtue of having no other choice. I know this sounds kinda nuts, but there have been several private schools where this kind of thing has been very successful. If you're looking for sources, I have some links, I just thought that posting them here would be kind of obnoxious.

As for that whole racism thing, that's really not what my intention was. It would be racist to say that minority teens are inherently violent because their minority teens, which was not what I was saying. What I was saying is that most teenagers who engage in serious violent acts against one another are disenfranchised, living in terrible neighborhoods with bad schools and fewer opportunities. Because of a history of racism, both overt and institutionalized in this country, which goes on to this day, many people in that situation are non-white. Which is a terrible thing. I'm sorry if I came off that way, wasn't what I meant at all.

(could you do me a favor and not respond by dissecting what I wrote into mini quotes, I find that very aggravating to work with).

1-you keep acting like I'm some kind of Nazi toward the kid when NOTHING can be further from the truth. If anything i think I've gone TOO easy on him up until now, or he'd know not to pull the kind of crap he's been pulling lately. Because a kid will do whatever he/she thinks they can get away with. But I don't mistreat or abuse him-verbally or otherwise. I don't have 1,000 rules. I don't get mad over silly little stuff. I don't deny him much of ANYTHING. I don't bark orders like Jonah Jameson. But when I present rules & instructions nicely he reacts as if I am a Nazi. Saying "no" is the ultimate injustice in his mind. And what I'm dealing with isn't an isolated incident, it's actually become rather commonplace. I've been observing it in numerous households for a while. And what E-Man said about disrespect isn't true either; adults aren't changing the definition of disrespect. Kids are simply doing more things that qualify.
A household cannot be a democracy. It can't. It is a dictatorship. The leaders of the household are not elected. They are self-appointed and cannot be overthrown. The final say on household policies must, will, and should always be theirs. Why? Because they pay the cost to be the boss. Because they know what's best far better than a kid ever will. And again, if you give a child the privelege of voicing their opinion then they should do so respectfully, and with the full knowledge that the final say will still be yours.
You think I don't give kids enough credit. I think you don't give parents enough credit. I dare you to go through just a week of what Mal'Akai & I have described & THEN tell me what you think. I PROMISE you you'd be singing a different tune.

I'm sorry that I offended you. I was a little aggressive initially. I'm sorry. I never accused you of being a nazi, but I unintentionally implied that you were a bad parent (I didn't even know you had kids until very recently), which was stupid of me. My point is in regards to society as a whole, but this is something that I'm very passionate about, and I think I vented that passion in your general direction instead of keeping a cool head. It was wrong of me to do so.

 

[Spider-X]

You know...at any age...it really just comes down to how you live. When you are young, if you are spoiled to hell, no crap you are gonna miss it when you have to start taking responsiblity for yourself. On the opposite end of the spectrum, if you are abused when you are young, there's no chance in hell you will look back and say "man, i wish i was young again" unless somehow your life has gotten even worse after high school.

I guess I'm still pretty young...i'm 25...but if you define youth as when you were living as a dependent...i can say right now that I'm happy at my age and there's no way in hell i want to be living with my parents again and dealing with the social BS of the elementary-high school years. That sucked ass. People always say "I could go back, I'd be able to handle things differently" but think about it...that's all life will ever be if that's how you think...not just youth, but anytime in the past.

I work at a great job now and sure I'm surrounded by some people that might bug me, but it's not as big of a deal. In school, those annoying people were surrounding you constantly.

Personally, I love being dependant on myself to make my own way.

 

[Kelly]

Oh dear lord...that was REALLY long...

 

[Kelly]

No you don't have to live on a deserted island to live by your own rules. Many people live by their own house rules in the privacy of their own home as long as they don't hurt others.

Thanks for calling me immature and a whiner for simply stating I'd prefer to be able to do adult things without someone else micromanaging my life decisions.

I know you're supposed to live by your parents rules when living on their property. But unless you enjoy being an obedient dog or a complacent machine why would you want to go back to having your life dictated to you?

Again. Not whining, just making a point.

I haven't read through this entire thread so there is one question I have for you?

Do you have a job, and pay for any of the luxuries that your parent's home gives you....ie: electricity, rent, etc?

 

[E-Man]

You know...at any age...it really just comes down to how you live. When you are young, if you are spoiled to hell, no crap you are gonna miss it when you have to start taking responsiblity for yourself. On the opposite end of the spectrum, if you are abused when you are young, there's no chance in hell you will look back and say "man, i wish i was young again" unless somehow your life has gotten even worse after high school.

I guess I'm still pretty young...i'm 25...but if you define youth as when you were living as a dependent...i can say right now that I'm happy at my age and there's no way in hell i want to be living with my parents again and dealing with the social BS of the elementary-high school years. That sucked ass. People always say "I could go back, I'd be able to handle things differently" but think about it...that's all life will ever be if that's how you think...not just youth, but anytime in the past.

I work at a great job now and sure I'm surrounded by some people that might bug me, but it's not as big of a deal. In school, those annoying people were surrounding you constantly.

Personally, I love being dependant on myself to make my own way.

I agree with what you wrote about always wanting to go back. I think a lot of people are burdened with regret because they never really let themselves live. They are so busy worrying about conforming that they don't really do what they feel. When they ponder going back and changing things, they don't stop to realize that they're probably doing the same thing in the present day. I don't think most people are ever truly happy, but that's another topic for another day.

 

[Aesop Rocks]

Oh dear lord...that was REALLY long...

That's REALLY what she said last night.

 

[Kelly]

*knocks AR upside da head*

 

[huskerwebhead]

(could you do me a favor and not respond by dissecting what I wrote into mini quotes, I find that very aggravating to work with).

HA! I'll try! Doing it in sections helps me organize my thoughts better.

I don't think kids should live without consequences. I don't think kids should live without rules. I have never said that. What I do think is that kids don't have to be controlled every step of the way. I don't think that, with the slightest amount of freedom, they'd go crazy and start tearing things up. Okay, yeah, some would, but as a whole. There is a middle ground. I think that we, as a society, need to try and stop controlling kids. If a kid says offensive and disrespectful things to people in school, yeah, there should be some kind of consequences. If there's violence of some kind, yes, there should be consequences. But having rules and consequences for breaking those rules does not mean that personal freedoms need to be curtailed as much as they are.

On the issue of respect... I think it's something of a logical fallacy to expect a kid of any age to respect an adult and trust that they have their best interests at heart and listen to everything they have to say, if the kid is not being listened to and their opinions and the things they are going through are in some way being belittled. Yes, respect is a two way street. But respect also has to be learned. And a child is never going to learn to respect others if they regularly feel disrespected. I'm not asking for much. Just for a kid to be listened to and talked to, not talked at. Adults need to engage in active conversation and listening with children. It teaches them respect, trust, and generally good social graces. Hell, most adults need to engage in more active conversation and listening in general, but that's another issue.

Obviously, children have much less experience than adults. So they need guidance. Someone to be there for them, to support them and offer them whatever help they need when they need it, and to make sure that the child understands the consequences of their actions, good or ill. But a guide is not a dictator. I've never understood this "a family is a dictatorship" mentality. A family shouldn't be a dictatorship, a family should be a family. A group of people who care about and support each other. Who understand each other and listen to each other and help each other when they need it. Yes, the elders of the family are the ones who guide the others, that's natural, but if you don't listen to each other and actively engage each other, it's not much of a family. I'm not advocating that parents be pushovers. If they feel strongly about something they should stand their ground. But they should also explain their point of view to their children and have a conversation about it. The very worst thing, I think, a parent can say to a child, is "because I say so." I really do. Because the kid doesn't learn anything. All they learn is either to obey, or to be resentful of their parents, neither of which are particularly valuable lessons.

As for school... I don't want to sound repetitive by saying that they obviously need rules, but yeah. They do. If a kid starts beating up on other kids... well, yes, you get the point. The issue I have with the school system is the very nature of it. I think it's ridiculous that how a child is going to be educated is decided in advance by people who've never met them and have no idea what their actual skills or interests are. I think it's ridiculous that kids have to spend six hours a day where they can't decide how they're going to spend their time and have to follow orders constantly. I think that kids should have the ability to decide how they're going to be educated. Not simply where they go to school, but what they learn there and what their schedule is going to be like. This would teach kids to be self reliant and responsible, by virtue of having no other choice. I know this sounds kinda nuts, but there have been several private schools where this kind of thing has been very successful. If you're looking for sources, I have some links, I just thought that posting them here would be kind of obnoxious.

As for that whole racism thing, that's really not what my intention was. It would be racist to say that minority teens are inherently violent because their minority teens, which was not what I was saying. What I was saying is that most teenagers who engage in serious violent acts against one another are disenfranchised, living in terrible neighborhoods with bad schools and fewer opportunities. Because of a history of racism, both overt and institutionalized in this country, which goes on to this day, many people in that situation are non-white. Which is a terrible thing. I'm sorry if I came off that way, wasn't what I meant at all.

For the most part, I think we agree here. I'm just not sure what freedoms you think are being curtailed that shouldn't be. For me to agree or disagree I'd have to know what we're talking about. Do you have an example?

On Respect, it is a two way street in every sense. But it's a fallacy for a child of any age to respect adults? Should a 4 year old not trust in his parents? Not respect them? What about a 10 year old? I love little kids, but frankly, you're not going to have a reasonable logical conversation with a 4 year old. Regardless of what you think "should" be and how parents "should" act, at some point they have to be the parents. You can have a reasonable conversation, listen to your kid and spell out all your rational reasons, and still not come to a compromise that the kid is happy with. At which point, I'm sorry, but the parent has the final vote. They're paying the bills, it's their house, they buy the food, they pay for your clothes, etc.

Yes an no. A family should always communicate well, yes. Everyone should have a say....to a point. And a lot of this depends largely on what we are talking about. How much time a teen gets to play video games? You can argue about that for days, but when it comes down to it, the parent wins. Yes, they should try and compromise as best they can. But if the kid still thinks it's within their ability to stay up till midnight playing PS3, the parent has every right to say no. "Because I said so." Really, it's no different than "Because that's the way I think it should be" or "Because it's my house, my rules." Again, this depends on what the argument is about. As like with the video game situation, the parent has every right to pull out any of those cards. Do you really think that a kid who wants to play their favorite game all night is going to care that Mom thinks he needs to get sleep for school tomorrow and that staring at the TV for hours isn't good for his eyes? Rational as those reasons are, 99% of the kids arguing won't give a damn. They're going to be resentful regardless. You know what that'll teach them? That life isn't always fair, deal with it. Again, you get a job and you can argue your point to your boss all you want. But if he doesn't agree, tough. It may be the wrong choice, it may be stupid, but that's the way it goes. You can certainly keep pushing the subject, and probably get your butt fired.

School, first, what level of school are you referencing? Elementary? Junior High? High School? I'm sorry, but Elementary students aren't going to know what they need to take and what's best for them. Do you think if given the choice they'd take math? English? History? Science? No, they wouldn't. And let's be honest, it'd be similar in high school as well. I'm sure some kids would still choose math heavy classes, or science heavy, or english related, etc. But Those BASE classes are all important. You can't have a kid going through high school taking nothing but science and math and no english classes. You can't have some kid going through and taking english and gym but no math. There has to be a base curriculum. There HAS to be. Outside of that, kids do have some choice in their classes. When I went through high school I had several choices, which ended up being technology heavy (CAD, Physics, Computers, etc.). Go ahead and post your examples. I'd be interested to see what they are doing.

I realize you weren't trying to sound racist. and frankly, it's not relevant to the conversation. However, I have to ask. With that logic, would a school that's 100% white populated with suburban kids not have serious violent acts? Of course they would, and absolutely they do.

Now one thing I'm still looking for, what are some of these rules that you suggest needlessly curtail kids freedom? Both at home and at school?

 

[The Question]

HA! I'll try! Doing it in sections helps me organize my thoughts better.

For your sake, I'll make a compromise: We'll divide it up by paragraph. Easier for both of us.

For the most part, I think we agree here. I'm just not sure what freedoms you think are being curtailed that shouldn't be. For me to agree or disagree I'd have to know what we're talking about. Do you have an example?

For the household, and again I stress that this is a greater cultural trend, I'm not accusing any specific parents of being abusing or anything, I think it's a communication issue. I have no problem with parents having rules and expectations of their kids. Kids are hard to deal with. What I have a problem with is kids not being listened to. Kids being made to feel that they're somehow less than adults. I mean, in terms of years they are, but I'm talking in terms of worth as a human being. It's not intentional. It's not malicious. Hell, we love kids in this country. But they're talked down to. They're talked at. The idea that you can have a meaningful conversation with a fourteen year old, or even an eighteen year old, in this country is considered odd. And because of that, because kids are expected to be seen and not heard, to do things "because I say so," I think in a way they actually lack guidance. As I said before, a guide is not a dictator. You're not going to learn anything from someone who remains slightly distant and lays down the law, you're either going to start simply following orders without ever thinking about them (which is unamerican), or start resenting authority in general (which is far too painfully American). In a way, kids are left largely to their own devices because of this. They're given orders and expected to follow them and otherwise expected to take care of themselves, without actually having any freedom to learn how to do so (I will get to the freedom bin in a minute, bare with me). Adults need to be a guides. They need to teach kids, not simply boss them. They need to take the time to understand kids and help the kids understand them, themselves, and the world. That's what kids crave. That's the thing they really need. Sometimes that involves setting down rules and consequences. But there needs to be as much communication as possible every step of the way. Otherwise, kids won't develop good listening skills, which is bad.

As for the freedom piece... and this is even more of a societal thing because most of the parents I know give their kids relatively free reign... kids need to be allowed to try and take care of themselves. Now, I know I mentioned kids taking care of themselves as being a bad thing in the last paragraph, so let me explain: What I mean is, yes, as I said earlier, keeps need guidance. But they don't need to be micromanaged. They don't need to have every aspect of their day decided for them. Sometimes they need a push. Sometimes they need to be allowed to choose for themselves. I honestly think the pushing aspect is most important when their youngest, if only to help them understand what their options are. As they get older, and fairly quickly, forcing them to do day to day things against their will (other than, you know, bathe) seems like a little much. I think the biggest offender here is schools, but I get to that later. basically, kids are often micromanaged. Society tries to herd them and limit their options, we tell them where to be when to be there what to do when they get there and give them few options, because we're afraid they will run riot. When in fact if they don't have anything to riot against, they'll be less inclined to.

I feel like I'm being vague. I'm sorry. Let me try to be more clear... okay, yeah. The freedom that I think is curtailed is the freedom to decide what to do with their time. They get very little of that. Society tries to fill their time with things they don't want to do to "keep them out of trouble." I think this is wrong and unnecessary. They do need some kind of structure. They do need academic environments and rules both there and in the household. But it does not need to be anywhere near as restricted as it is.

On Respect, it is a two way street in every sense. But it's a fallacy for a child of any age to respect adults? Should a 4 year old not trust in his parents? Not respect them? What about a 10 year old? I love little kids, but frankly, you're not going to have a reasonable logical conversation with a 4 year old. Regardless of what you think "should" be and how parents "should" act, at some point they have to be the parents. You can have a reasonable conversation, listen to your kid and spell out all your rational reasons, and still not come to a compromise that the kid is happy with. At which point, I'm sorry, but the parent has the final vote. They're paying the bills, it's their house, they buy the food, they pay for your clothes, etc.

I never said it was a fallacy for children of any age to respect adults. What I said was a fallacy was expecting the respect to come from the children from nothing. Saying "if kids want respect, they need to show some respect to the people who work hard to take care of them." Well, yes, that is true. But kids have to learn respect, and they won't learn it if they never receive it. Respect has to come from the parents first because they already grasp the concept. Once trust and respect have been established, then yes it's largely the kid's fault if he's being a jackass for no reason, but I also feel quite certain that it's less likely if they actually feel like they get respect and that their opinions matter. As for talking to the kids... I don't buy that. A parent's job is to guide children into adulthood. They're not doing the kid any favors if they don't actually explain things to them. Yes, you're right, a four year old is incredibly difficult to talk to, and they're not going to understand everything, and in several areas a parent has to have the final say. But it still never hurts to listen to them. Honestly. Even if you don't change your mind, the fact that you listened to them and actually took their point of view, even if it's an underdeveloped point of view, into account, will in the long run be very good for them. A parent does buy food and clothes and whatnot, but that fact absolutely does not invalidate how their child thinks and feels. Taking that attitude creates a gap between the parent and child that makes forming a real connection kind of difficult.

Yes an no. A family should always communicate well, yes. Everyone should have a say....to a point. And a lot of this depends largely on what we are talking about. How much time a teen gets to play video games? You can argue about that for days, but when it comes down to it, the parent wins. Yes, they should try and compromise as best they can. But if the kid still thinks it's within their ability to stay up till midnight playing PS3, the parent has every right to say no. "Because I said so." Really, it's no different than "Because that's the way I think it should be" or "Because it's my house, my rules." Again, this depends on what the argument is about. As like with the video game situation, the parent has every right to pull out any of those cards. Do you really think that a kid who wants to play their favorite game all night is going to care that Mom thinks he needs to get sleep for school tomorrow and that staring at the TV for hours isn't good for his eyes? Rational as those reasons are, 99% of the kids arguing won't give a damn. They're going to be resentful regardless. You know what that'll teach them? That life isn't always fair, deal with it. Again, you get a job and you can argue your point to your boss all you want. But if he doesn't agree, tough. It may be the wrong choice, it may be stupid, but that's the way it goes. You can certainly keep pushing the subject, and probably get your butt fired.

I disagree 100%. Pulling out the "because I say so" card is a complete cop out. It doesn't solve anything.It doesn't help anyone. I'm even going to go so far to say that the parent doesn't have that right. Yes, a kid may be resentful that their parent doesn't want them to play a lot of video games. But honestly, wouldn't they be more resentful if they can't play video games and they're not given a good reason as to why? There's no reason for "because I say so." It alienates the kid from their parent. Talk about it. Actually try to understand each other. Communication, like respect (which is a part of communication) is a two way street. Show someone that you're willing to listen and that you want to understand their point of view and they'll be more willing to do the same to you. Kids will learn positive communication skills if those skills are used on them. Now, if the kid in question actually has a serious problem with video games, then you might need to have an intervention of sorts. But if it's less serious than that, there's nothing wrong with talking it out. As for teaching kids "life's tough, deal with it" I'm not convinced that it gets them ready for a job. If someone has something they really want to do and are motivated to do it, they're going to find out what they have to do to achieve that. It's human nature. Your argument makes the assumption that it's a kid's natural state to be disrespectful and disruptive and be unable to do what is asked of them. I don't buy that. Kids are a result of their upbringing.

School, first, what level of school are you referencing? Elementary? Junior High? High School? I'm sorry, but Elementary students aren't going to know what they need to take and what's best for them. Do you think if given the choice they'd take math? English? History? Science? No, they wouldn't. And let's be honest, it'd be similar in high school as well. I'm sure some kids would still choose math heavy classes, or science heavy, or english related, etc. But Those BASE classes are all important. You can't have a kid going through high school taking nothing but science and math and no english classes. You can't have some kid going through and taking english and gym but no math. There has to be a base curriculum. There HAS to be. Outside of that, kids do have some choice in their classes. When I went through high school I had several choices, which ended up being technology heavy (CAD, Physics, Computers, etc.). Go ahead and post your examples. I'd be interested to see what they are doing.

All levels of school. And again, I disagree. Yeah, maybe an elementary school aged kid won't choose to take math and science and english. So what? What is the benefit of a base curriculum. Why do we need one? What's wrong with a kid only ever taking math and science classes from elementary school to high school? If they decide they want to become a physicist, then they'll be fine. Yeah, they'll have to write papers and whatnot, but first of all, MLA formatting is really easy to learn, and as for basic reading and writing skills, the fact is that reading and writing are so important in our society, the only way someone who was given the opportunity to learn how to read and write wouldn't is if they decided it wasn't worth their time. Which they wouldn't, because it's difficult to get by without the written word in this society. Kids should be allowed to focus on the things they have interests and skills in. Education should be designed to activate a child's potential, not mold the child to a predetermined idea of what they should be. As for links:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudbury_model

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Sudbury_schools

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=csAiJgvajYo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N7XNx5G0mPU&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUl86pVLj4Q

I realize you weren't trying to sound racist. and frankly, it's not relevant to the conversation. However, I have to ask. With that logic, would a school that's 100% white populated with suburban kids not have serious violent acts? Of course they would, and absolutely they do.

Serious violent acts in well off middle class suburban schools are incredibly rare. They do get a lot more media coverage than ones in inner city schools, but they are much rarer.

 

[The Question]

Also, I want to make clear that my beef isn't with parents, or even most parents. It's the general attitude towards kids around here.

 

[C. Lee]

I haven't read all of the thread.....but my personal opinion is....kids today have more of a feeling of entitlement than they did several decades ago. Most kids will always at some time when they are young be selfish and feel entitled to things....but I have noticed that as the years progress more and more kids keep that feeling longer and have it to a greater extent than kids from years ago.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

I haven't read through this entire thread so there is one question I have for you?

Do you have a job, and pay for any of the luxuries that your parent's home gives you....ie: electricity, rent, etc?

I don't live at home and I pay my own bills.

 

[Chris Wallace]

Okay, I'm not going to answer every counter point you made individually because it's a pain in the ass. I don't think I've been especially clear on what I mean, so I'll try and explain:

I don't think kids should live without consequences. I don't think kids should live without rules. I have never said that. What I do think is that kids don't have to be controlled every step of the way. I don't think that, with the slightest amount of freedom, they'd go crazy and start tearing things up. Okay, yeah, some would, but as a whole. There is a middle ground. I think that we, as a society, need to try and stop controlling kids. If a kid says offensive and disrespectful things to people in school, yeah, there should be some kind of consequences. If there's violence of some kind, yes, there should be consequences. But having rules and consequences for breaking those rules does not mean that personal freedoms need to be curtailed as much as they are.

On the issue of respect... I think it's something of a logical fallacy to expect a kid of any age to respect an adult and trust that they have their best interests at heart and listen to everything they have to say, if the kid is not being listened to and their opinions and the things they are going through are in some way being belittled. Yes, respect is a two way street. But respect also has to be learned. And a child is never going to learn to respect others if they regularly feel disrespected. I'm not asking for much. Just for a kid to be listened to and talked to, not talked at. Adults need to engage in active conversation and listening with children. It teaches them respect, trust, and generally good social graces. Hell, most adults need to engage in more active conversation and listening in general, but that's another issue.

Obviously, children have much less experience than adults. So they need guidance. Someone to be there for them, to support them and offer them whatever help they need when they need it, and to make sure that the child understands the consequences of their actions, good or ill. But a guide is not a dictator. I've never understood this "a family is a dictatorship" mentality. A family shouldn't be a dictatorship, a family should be a family. A group of people who care about and support each other. Who understand each other and listen to each other and help each other when they need it. Yes, the elders of the family are the ones who guide the others, that's natural, but if you don't listen to each other and actively engage each other, it's not much of a family. I'm not advocating that parents be pushovers. If they feel strongly about something they should stand their ground. But they should also explain their point of view to their children and have a conversation about it. The very worst thing, I think, a parent can say to a child, is "because I say so." I really do. Because the kid doesn't learn anything. All they learn is either to obey, or to be resentful of their parents, neither of which are particularly valuable lessons.

As for school... I don't want to sound repetitive by saying that they obviously need rules, but yeah. They do. If a kid starts beating up on other kids... well, yes, you get the point. The issue I have with the school system is the very nature of it. I think it's ridiculous that how a child is going to be educated is decided in advance by people who've never met them and have no idea what their actual skills or interests are. I think it's ridiculous that kids have to spend six hours a day where they can't decide how they're going to spend their time and have to follow orders constantly. I think that kids should have the ability to decide how they're going to be educated. Not simply where they go to school, but what they learn there and what their schedule is going to be like. This would teach kids to be self reliant and responsible, by virtue of having no other choice. I know this sounds kinda nuts, but there have been several private schools where this kind of thing has been very successful. If you're looking for sources, I have some links, I just thought that posting them here would be kind of obnoxious.

As for that whole racism thing, that's really not what my intention was. It would be racist to say that minority teens are inherently violent because their minority teens, which was not what I was saying. What I was saying is that most teenagers who engage in serious violent acts against one another are disenfranchised, living in terrible neighborhoods with bad schools and fewer opportunities. Because of a history of racism, both overt and institutionalized in this country, which goes on to this day, many people in that situation are non-white. Which is a terrible thing. I'm sorry if I came off that way, wasn't what I meant at all.

(could you do me a favor and not respond by dissecting what I wrote into mini quotes, I find that very aggravating to work with).



I'm sorry that I offended you. I was a little aggressive initially. I'm sorry. I never accused you of being a nazi, but I unintentionally implied that you were a bad parent (I didn't even know you had kids until very recently), which was stupid of me. My point is in regards to society as a whole, but this is something that I'm very passionate about, and I think I vented that passion in your general direction instead of keeping a cool head. It was wrong of me to do so.

Apology accepted.

 

[Chris Wallace]

I haven't read all of the thread.....but my personal opinion is....kids today have more of a feeling of entitlement than they did several decades ago. Most kids will always at some time when they are young be selfish and feel entitled to things....but I have noticed that as the years progress more and more kids keep that feeling longer and have it to a greater extent than kids from years ago.

THis is my observation as well.

 

[Mace Dolex]

I'll be 34 in May and if there were a way to go and change my past I'd do it without hesitating, knowing what I know now about life I was pretty stupid and rebellious in my 20's.

When I was young I used to work at McDonald's and I was thinner and better looking that it was easy to talk to my cute female co-workers.

Now I'm a little thicker with a job that pays 12 the hour no girl really wants to go with a guy that doesn't have a good job.

 

[E-Man]

I haven't read all of the thread.....but my personal opinion is....kids today have more of a feeling of entitlement than they did several decades ago. Most kids will always at some time when they are young be selfish and feel entitled to things....but I have noticed that as the years progress more and more kids keep that feeling longer and have it to a greater extent than kids from years ago.

This is something I agree with about today's youth. I think some other things are overblown, but the entitlement thing sticks out like a sore thumb. I think it's because kids are raised by being told that they're special, and it's really without them having to do anything. Some people blame the self esteem movement, and it's hard to disagree. These kids grow up hearing about how special they are without doing much, and they feel that people owe them something because they're "special." I think we need to go back to praising kids only when they do well. Getting an 'A' in class should be praised to the moon so that kids want to get them. Now kids get praised just for walking outside, or they get love just for passing a class with a 'C.' Mediocrity like that shouldn't be rewarded.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

Is there a study that shows strict parents have more productive children, because most kids I know with strict parent end up rebelling to a dangerous extent at some point.

I'm not sure what the cause is for the new sense of entitlement, but I think it's technology and an easy life. But I'm not sure strict parents are the solution.

 

[The Question]

Is there a study that shows strict parents have more productive children, because most kids I know with strict parent end up rebelling to a dangerous extent at some point.

I'm not sure what the cause is for the new sense of entitlement, but I think it's technology and an easy life. But I'm not sure strict parents are the solution.

I kind of want that "sense of entitlement" thing explained better. I'm not really challenging it, but it's very vague. Sense of being entitled to what, exactly? And why is it bad? I just don't really understand what everyone means by it.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

Yeah, feeling entitled could mean expecting more for less.

Sounds like a smart consumer to me.

 

[Chris Wallace]

I kind of want that "sense of entitlement" thing explained better. I'm not really challenging it, but it's very vague. Sense of being entitled to what, exactly? And why is it bad? I just don't really understand what everyone means by it.

It's a sense of selfish greed coupled with a general lack of morals. Not understanding the difference between rights and privileges. Feeling that you're supposed to get what you want when you want it, no matter what. Whether you've earned it or not, whether you play by the rules or not. In some cases, taking it if it's not given to you. Not appreciating the things that you do get. Believing that life is just supposed to go your way at all times, & if it doesn't then you have the right to act any way you want in response, without penalty or consequence because you should've been able to get what you wanted in the first place. Being all about "me,me, me!" Reacting to "no" with an attitude of "How DARE you!" Essentially, it's about expecting the things you want in life to just be handed to you, versus appreciating the things that you get and understanding the value of hard work & discipline.
You cited in an earlier post (I think it was you) an example of a kid being asked to take out the trash. Quite frankly, if I come home from a 10 hour day and I tell you to take out the trash (I feel the need to point out that my stepson was struggling in school from freshman through sophomore year, & has subsequently transferred into a special program which as far as I can tell, is for lazy/challenged students. Granted his grades have significantly improved from their previous abysmal status, but he now has a 3-hour schoolday with no homework and no real required studying. So he has NO responsibilities right now.) I don't owe you any explanation as to why. If I give you a list of chores to do while I'm at work & you're at home watching TV, surfing MySpace & playing video games, I don't owe you an explanation of why I want you to do it. It has to be done & I shouldn't have to bust my hump at work, then turn around & do the same at home while you coast. The reason is-much as I hated to hear it when I was younger-because I SAID SO. Again, the household is not a democracy, it is a dictatorship. Now if you don't do what I ask you to do, you should not have the balls to come to me asking for money to go do what you want or extra time to hang out with your friends. And you should not get pissed when I say no.
Again, having kids changes your perspective on a lot of things. I grew up with a list of things I SWORE I would never say to my kids b/c I hated for my parents to say them to me-"Because I said so" was foremost among them. It was also the first one I broke, despite all my best efforts. Kids are so damn quick to challenge authority like it's their God-given right to do so & you have to sometimes-nay, OFTEN remind them who's in charge. Deal with a kid in this situation who wants a reason for everything you say & see how quick "Because I said so" becomes the only answer you have left to give. Having gone back down the list I have broken every single one of those vows, with the exception of one. The one that remains has to do with being born too late & not knowing what real music is. God, I hated for my Pop to use that one. And I'm trying real hard not to say it when I get subjected to Tek-Nyne & Lil' Wayne on a regular basis.

 

[Eggyman]

I've never been too fussed about my age. It is what it is, and not who I am. I would like to do one thing. Go back and lose my virginity all over again. This time I would make her scream and make sure my mate's dog didn't bite me halfway through. Haha, no I didn't lose it to my mate's dog, it walked into the spare bedroom where me and this girl crashed after a party and then ran off with one of my socks. It bit me. I sounded like Forest Gump!