The funny thing about youth...(a message to teens everywhere)

[Hotwire]

Sense of entitlement? Let me see if I can clarify it for you. I have two daughters, 12 & 2, both girls. Now, the 12 year old and I clash quite often. She seems to think that she is exempt from responsibility around the house. Now, this is partly the fault of her mother and I, but it has gotten worse over the past year. Any request to do anything around the house is met with resistance and attitude.

For example, just last night, she took a shower. When I went into the bathroom to give the little one a bath, I noticed the tub was covered with hair and a mess in general. I asked her to clean up the mess, which she did, grudgingly. However, when I went back in after she had "cleaned up", I found that there was still a fair amount of hair in the tub. I go back to her room, tell her to come here so I can show her what she missed. My request was met with a sarcastic, "It doesn't have to be perfect!"
Another example is anytime her little sister comes into the room that they share. The older one gets bent out of shape that the little one may mess up the room, even though it's already a mess. She has the attitude that she should not have to deal with things like that.

However, when it comes to anything she wants, she is relentless. Things like, "I need an iPod Touch, even though I just got an iPod Nano for Christmas last year." Or, "I want a laptop computer, even though I have a nice desktop that my dad spent a lot of time custom painting purple for me." Things like that. Pushing her mother and I until she goes to far and gets in trouble. Then it's the "Oh my God, you're so mean for not giving me what I want", attitude.

I know that when I was her age, I also had a sibling ten years younger than me, but I didn't dare dream of acting the way she does.

I hope this sheds some light on things.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

It's a sense of selfish greed coupled with a general lack of morals. Not understanding the difference between rights and privileges. Feeling that you're supposed to get what you want when you want it, no matter what. Whether you've earned it or not, whether you play by the rules or not. In some cases, taking it if it's not given to you. Not appreciating the things that you do get. Believing that life is just supposed to go your way at all times, & if it doesn't then you have the right to act any way you want in response, without penalty or consequence because you should've been able to get what you wanted in the first place. Being all about "me,me, me!" Reacting to "no" with an attitude of "How DARE you!" Essentially, it's about expecting the things you want in life to just be handed to you, versus appreciating the things that you get and understanding the value of hard work & discipline.
You cited in an earlier post (I think it was you) an example of a kid being asked to take out the trash. Quite frankly, if I come home from a 10 hour day and I tell you to take out the trash (I feel the need to point out that my stepson was struggling in school from freshman through sophomore year, & has subsequently transferred into a special program which as far as I can tell, is for lazy/challenged students. Granted his grades have significantly improved from their previous abysmal status, but he now has a 3-hour schoolday with no homework and no real required studying. So he has NO responsibilities right now.) I don't owe you any explanation as to why. If I give you a list of chores to do while I'm at work & you're at home watching TV, surfing MySpace & playing video games, I don't owe you an explanation of why I want you to do it. It has to be done & I shouldn't have to bust my hump at work, then turn around & do the same at home while you coast. The reason is-much as I hated to hear it when I was younger-because I SAID SO. Again, the household is not a democracy, it is a dictatorship. Now if you don't do what I ask you to do, you should not have the balls to come to me asking for money to go do what you want or extra time to hang out with your friends. And you should not get pissed when I say no.
Again, having kids changes your perspective on a lot of things. I grew up with a list of things I SWORE I would never say to my kids b/c I hated for my parents to say them to me-"Because I said so" was foremost among them. It was also the first one I broke, despite all my best efforts. Kids are so damn quick to challenge authority like it's their God-given right to do so & you have to sometimes-nay, OFTEN remind them who's in charge. Deal with a kid in this situation who wants a reason for everything you say & see how quick "Because I said so" becomes the only answer you have left to give. Having gone back down the list I have broken every single one of those vows, with the exception of one. The one that remains has to do with being born too late & not knowing what real music is. God, I hated for my Pop to use that one. And I'm trying real hard not to say it when I get subjected to Tek-Nyne & Lil' Wayne on a regular basis.

But is entitlement and greed the same thing? I'll concede that a person who feels entitled takes things for granted but calling them greedy and amoral is going a bit too far. And much of your description sounds like someone who is spoiled rather than simply having a sense of entitlement which means they feel deserving of things they haven't earned yet.

A person who is spoiled probably has a sense of entitlement but just because someone feels entitled doesn't mean they're spoiled. Entitlement is simply a matter of perspective. Who's to say what people do or do not deserve? A CEO may feel he earned and deserved a multi-million dollar bonus but tell that to a hard working janitor. In life rarely does everybody get what they deserve. Earning money is not a complete distrubtion of karma. It's simply compensation for time and energy but there are mean and wicked rich people. Do they truly deserve their prosperity?

I do sympathize with kids challenging your demands. My girlfriend's kids are always asking "why" when you ask them to do something and "because I said so" just naturally slips out. They do feel as if they're owed an explanation which could be a sense of entitlement or simply a matter of the questioning the universe around them extending into questioning authority as well. It's natural for kids who are expected to inquire about the nature of the world to also question authority.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

As Americans we have a constitution and bill of rights that even extents to protecting the pursuit of happiness. This creates a sense of entitlement among Americans. But is that entitlement justified? Shouldn't we as humans expect to be free, secure, and prosperous? Why should we settle for less?

 

[Chris Wallace]

Okay, let me put it another way for you, because you're starting to make my head hurt.
Say you run a company. You'll have certain rules & guidelines that you expect your employees to follow; attendance policy, dress code, maybe productivity quotas. Now you've got an employee who just refuses to conform. Shows up when he feels like it, doesn't give the required 2-hour notice when he calls off, comes to work looking like a bum, and has shoddy work performance. Maybe you ask him to do a special project and he blows it off. Maybe he lies and says he took care of it and it turns out he hasn't even touched it. Maybe you ask him to call an affiliate & he asks you why he should have to be the one that does it when he hasn't done much of anything all day. How would you feel, then, if this employee were to raise a stink & curse you out because you didn't give him a bonus or denied him promotion? How would you feel if he had the audacity to tell you that you have no right to deny him a raise? What if, just because, you actually gave him a raise & subsequently, the quantity & quality of his work diminished? (Because if he got what he wanted without earning it, why should he try harder?) Then when you said something to him he got all pissy? THAT is a sense of entitlement.

 

[The Question]

It's a sense of selfish greed coupled with a general lack of morals. Not understanding the difference between rights and privileges. Feeling that you're supposed to get what you want when you want it, no matter what. Whether you've earned it or not, whether you play by the rules or not. In some cases, taking it if it's not given to you. Not appreciating the things that you do get. Believing that life is just supposed to go your way at all times, & if it doesn't then you have the right to act any way you want in response, without penalty or consequence because you should've been able to get what you wanted in the first place. Being all about "me,me, me!" Reacting to "no" with an attitude of "How DARE you!" Essentially, it's about expecting the things you want in life to just be handed to you, versus appreciating the things that you get and understanding the value of hard work & discipline.
You cited in an earlier post (I think it was you) an example of a kid being asked to take out the trash. Quite frankly, if I come home from a 10 hour day and I tell you to take out the trash (I feel the need to point out that my stepson was struggling in school from freshman through sophomore year, & has subsequently transferred into a special program which as far as I can tell, is for lazy/challenged students. Granted his grades have significantly improved from their previous abysmal status, but he now has a 3-hour schoolday with no homework and no real required studying. So he has NO responsibilities right now.) I don't owe you any explanation as to why. If I give you a list of chores to do while I'm at work & you're at home watching TV, surfing MySpace & playing video games, I don't owe you an explanation of why I want you to do it. It has to be done & I shouldn't have to bust my hump at work, then turn around & do the same at home while you coast. The reason is-much as I hated to hear it when I was younger-because I SAID SO. Again, the household is not a democracy, it is a dictatorship. Now if you don't do what I ask you to do, you should not have the balls to come to me asking for money to go do what you want or extra time to hang out with your friends. And you should not get pissed when I say no.
Again, having kids changes your perspective on a lot of things. I grew up with a list of things I SWORE I would never say to my kids b/c I hated for my parents to say them to me-"Because I said so" was foremost among them. It was also the first one I broke, despite all my best efforts. Kids are so damn quick to challenge authority like it's their God-given right to do so & you have to sometimes-nay, OFTEN remind them who's in charge. Deal with a kid in this situation who wants a reason for everything you say & see how quick "Because I said so" becomes the only answer you have left to give. Having gone back down the list I have broken every single one of those vows, with the exception of one. The one that remains has to do with being born too late & not knowing what real music is. God, I hated for my Pop to use that one. And I'm trying real hard not to say it when I get subjected to Tek-Nyne & Lil' Wayne on a regular basis.

What's wrong with explaining to them why you want them to do something? You seem really offended by that idea, but what's the harm in that? If someone wants you to do something, and you honestly don't know why they want you to do it, it's really frustrating for them to simply say "because I said so."

I'm sorry, I'm not trying to criticize here, but your reasoning just seems really flawed. You seem to be saying that respect has to initially come from the child, which doesn't make sense. Kids won't understand respect if they never get any. And simply saying "because I said so" is disrespectful. It's rude and condescending. And ultimately it doesn't accomplish anything. It doesn't teach kids respect. It doesn't teach them anything because it doesn't explain anything to them. If a kid goes to a school and asks the teacher "but why did the colonists revolt against the King?" or "why does language work how it does?" and the only answer they get is "because I say so," they haven't learned anything besides facts that hold no meaning to them. All that does is breed resentment.

I mean, have you ever thought about where this sense of entitlement comes from? You said it yourself, it's self centered-ness and a lack of morals. I can't speak for every case, but I do know that an environment where kids aren't listened do and are talked down to, an environment that generates a feeling of "me against the world" will produce some very self centered people. Is it a reasonable response from the kids? Obviously not. It's not the intent of schools or parents or society to make kids feel like everything is in opposition to them. But it is what happens and that can't be ignored. In a kid's mind, school is the enemy. Parents who only lay down rules and never try to communicate with the kids or explain the why of things or really listen to them seriously are the enemy. It's people who've decided the bigger picture for them without ever consulting them who feel no need to consult them.

I'm sorry, I'm getting a little side tracked in my head here... my point is that's it's a natural response for someone to get completely wrapped up in their own issues if they feel like their voice is not heard and they get no respect. Morals are similar. If the people teaching them morals never listen to them or never explain why they should or shouldn't do something, just say "because I say so," why should they apply those morals to their own lives? What in their experience actually leads them to learn those morals to be fundamentally true? The developing mind needs other people to teach it and listen to it. The developing mind needs an environment that encourages it to figure out who it is. A household being a dictatorship creates barriers that run counter to that. A school being a dictatorship creates barriers that run counter to that. Dictatorships are cold an distant and history has proven that they very rarely work in a way that we would consider to be civilized.

Again, I don't think households should be a dictatorship. They should be a family. Yes, there are elders in that family who are more or less in charge and guide the younger members, but they should do so by working with the family, not simply controlling it.

I really want to stress that I'm not trying to attack you personally. It's just that this is a line of thinking I absolutely do not understand, and on a larger scale I actually think it is harmful to society.

 

[The Question]

Okay, let me put it another way for you, because you're starting to make my head hurt.
Say you run a company. You'll have certain rules & guidelines that you expect your employees to follow; attendance policy, dress code, maybe productivity quotas. Now you've got an employee who just refuses to conform. Shows up when he feels like it, doesn't give the required 2-hour notice when he calls off, comes to work looking like a bum, and has shoddy work performance. Maybe you ask him to do a special project and he blows it off. Maybe he lies and says he took care of it and it turns out he hasn't even touched it. Maybe you ask him to call an affiliate & he asks you why he should have to be the one that does it when he hasn't done much of anything all day. How would you feel, then, if this employee were to raise a stink & curse you out because you didn't give him a bonus or denied him promotion? How would you feel if he had the audacity to tell you that you have no right to deny him a raise? What if, just because, you actually gave him a raise & subsequently, the quantity & quality of his work diminished? (Because if he got what he wanted without earning it, why should he try harder?) Then when you said something to him he got all pissy? THAT is a sense of entitlement.

But kids aren't employees. They're kids. he relationship between a parent or child or between a teacher and student should be completely different.

 

[C. Lee]

I'd love to see some of these people when they leave home and go to work.

BOSS: Bill....I need that group of boxes there moved to the back room. Move them please.
BILL: Why?
BOSS: Why what?
BILL: Why do I need to move them...and why to the back room?
BOSS: Uh, because I just told you to.
Bill: But why? Mom and dad always took the time to give me a detailed complete and thorough explanation for the reasons behind any task they asked me to do.
Boss: Hey Jim....I need you to move these boxes over there to the back room while Bill cleans out his locker....he's just been fired.

 

[The Question]

I'd love to see some of these people when they leave home and go to work.

BOSS: Bill....I need that group of boxes there moved to the back room. Move them please.
BILL: Why?
BOSS: Why what?
BILL: Why do I need to move them...and why to the back room?
BOSS: Uh, because I just told you to.
Bill: But why? Mom and dad always took the time to give me a detailed complete and thorough explanation for the reasons behind any task they asked me to do.
Boss: Hey Jim....I need you to move these boxes over there to the back room while Bill cleans out his locker....he's just been fired.

I really don't agree with this line of logic. When you get a job, you do so by agreeing, usually in the form of a contract, to perform a specific set of tasks that are explained to you in advance. If you get a job as a box mover, you are aware that you will be moving boxes on a regular basis, and if you don't you will not get payed. If an employer asks you to do something that is not within your job description, then I would think that they would explain why they wanted you to do it. If the boss asks a computer analyst to move some boxes, it would be very strange for them not to explain why the box movers can't do it.

I don't see where this idea that parents have to prepare kids for the workforce by making them to things and conditioning them to do those things without question comes from. A family is not a business. The dynamic and environment should be completely different.

I basically don't understand why it's assumed that if parents never play the "because I said so" card that kids will never learn how to do what is asked of them by an employer at a job. Hell, even if they do get it into their head, which seems really unlikely to me, the only way they'd repeat that mistake a second time is if they were profoundly stupid.

 

[C. Lee]

I really don't agree with this line of logic. When you get a job, you do so by agreeing, usually in the form of a contract, to perform a specific set of tasks that are explained to you in advance. If you get a job as a box mover, you are aware that you will be moving boxes on a regular basis, and if you don't you will not get payed. If an employer asks you to do something that is not within your job description, then I would think that they would explain why they wanted you to do it. If the boss asks a computer analyst to move some boxes, it would be very strange for them not to explain why the box movers can't do it.

I don't see where this idea that parents have to prepare kids for the workforce by making them to things and conditioning them to do those things without question comes from. A family is not a business. The dynamic and environment should be completely different.

I basically don't understand why it's assumed that if parents never play the "because I said so" card that kids will never learn how to do what is asked of them by an employer at a job. Hell, even if they do get it into their head, which seems really unlikely to me, the only way they'd repeat that mistake a second time is if they were profoundly stupid.

What I posted was a generalization to get a general point accross. I didn't say that the head of the hospital came to the brain surgeon and told him to move boxes....I didn't say that the head CEO of Mircosoft came to his primary programming technition and said to move those boxes. The idea is....sometimes you are told to do something that is NOT LIFE THREATENING OR ILLEGAL.....so you don't need an hours lecture with flow charts on why it needs to be done.....just do it.

I am a parent and I have been charge of up to 10 people at my workplace. There are times that you need to explain things, and there are times that it just needs to be done without all of the drama. The sense of entitlement that some of as are trying to explain to some of you guys revolves precisely around this situation. Some people know that they need to get the job done....and some feel they are entitled to a Supreme Court ruling on why they need to remove the hair from the bathtub.

 

[The Question]

What I posted was a generalization to get a general point accross. I didn't say that the head of the hospital came to the brain surgeon and told him to move boxes....I didn't say that the head CEO of Mircosoft came to his primary programming technition and said to move those boxes. The idea is....sometimes you are told to do something that is NOT LIFE THREATENING OR ILLEGAL.....so you don't need an hours lecture with flow charts on why it needs to be done.....just do it.

I am a parent and I have been charge of up to 10 people at my workplace. There are times that you need to explain things, and there are times that it just needs to be done without all of the drama. The sense of entitlement that some of as are trying to explain to some of you guys revolves precisely around this situation. Some people know that they need to get the job done....and some feel they are entitled to a Supreme Court ruling on why they need to remove the hair from the bathtub.

I just don't understand how family relates to the workplace. You take a job, and you're agreeing to perform a certain set of tasks in exchange for money. The fact that if you do not perform these tasks, you will not get any money, is very plain to all parties involved. I don't see how parents not invoking the "because I said so" card will make people ill prepared for this. If anything, having open and honest discourse helps people develop social skills, especially the ability to understand another person's point of view, which I think is invaluable for most professions.

And really, I'm not talking about hours of explanations. What I'm talking about is (to borrow Chris Wallace's example): "Could you do X chores around the house while I'm at work?" "Why?" "Because you're going to be at home all day without anything to do, it won't take up too much of our time, and I'd rather it be done by the time everyone's home instead of me having to do it on top of my workday tonight." Simple. Takes five seconds, and is all the explanation there is. If the kid in question gives grief more than that, then I think there's probably some separate issue that needs to be worked through going on.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

Okay, let me put it another way for you, because you're starting to make my head hurt.

Take an asprin but don't expect your "entitlement is greed and amoral" to go unchallenged. It's a bit extreme.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

The problem with comparing a business with a family is the dynamics are completely different.

With a business your sole purpose is to take orders. As a member of a family your role is not simply to take orders. Your also supposed to laugh, pray, sleep, eat, cry, grow with a family. So of course when a child is treated like an employee they might feel confused. They're not employees and I'm pretty sure many parents would have hurt feelings if they were treated like an employer and nothing more.

 

[Cracker Jack]

It's a sense of selfish greed coupled with a general lack of morals. Not understanding the difference between rights and privileges.......................

Take a bow CW. well said.

Once you buy a home and have to take care of that home/family, you start to understand “this is my house, I make the rules. If you don’t like it, when you’re 18 move out and make your own.”

 

[Chris Wallace]

As Americans we have a constitution and bill of rights that even extents to protecting the pursuit of happiness. This creates a sense of entitlement among Americans. But is that entitlement justified? Shouldn't we as humans expect to be free, secure, and prosperous? Why should we settle for less?

1-"Pursuit of happiness" is actually contained in the Declaration Of Independence, not the Constitution.
(And you wonder why your mom wouldn't let you have weed in the house.)
2-We are not talking about a system of government, DESPITE my previous metaphors. We are talking about maintaining order within one's household. We are talking about teaching values and teaching someone the difference between rights and privileges. We are talking about preventing our kids from becoming lazy, insubordinate ingrates who think they can get their way at all times in all situations-THESE are NOT protected by the Constitution or any other document. Again, all that talk about rights & freedoms means absolutely nothing when you are living under someone else's roof. If you think for one second that you should be able to do whatever you want whenever you want regardless of who's paying the bills, try to look at it from the other side-something you & the Question seem absolutely completely unwilling to do. It's proving VERY difficult to explain to NON-parents where I'm comig from on this when all of the PARENTS on this thread seem to understand it perfectly, bringing me to another one on my list:
"You will understand when you have kids of your own."
@ The Question:
Kids may not be your employees but the fundamentals are still the same. It's about wanting-no, expecting to be rewarded no matter what you do. You can't expect to just get what you want & not put in any of the effort. And kids who get away with this at home will become SOMEBODY'S employees and try the same crap with them. And how many times should I have to explain my reasoning to someone, huh? You just demonstrated that these young people-to whom I supposedly don't give enough credit-are quite capable of figuring out for themselves why they're told to do something. More often than not, "Why" is not a request for an explanation or an attempt at understanding; it's an attempt to get out of doing the task in question. THIS is why we resort to "Because I said so." Not because we don't want to answer it. But over time you learn to tell the difference between an honest inquiry and a challenge to your authority, and you react appropriately.

 

[The Question]

1-"Pursuit of happiness" is actually contained in the Declaration Of Independence, not the Constitution.
(And you wonder why your mom wouldn't let you have weed in the house.)
2-We are not talking about a system of government, DESPITE my previous metaphors. We are talking about maintaining order within one's household. We are talking about teaching values and teaching someone the difference between rights and privileges. We are talking about preventing our kids from becoming lazy, insubordinate ingrates who think they can get their way at all times in all situations-THESE are NOT protected by the Constitution or any other document. Again, all that talk about rights & freedoms means absolutely nothing when you are living under someone else's roof. If you think for one second that you should be able to do whatever you want whenever you want regardless of who's paying the bills, try to look at it from the other side-something you & the Question seem absolutely completely unwilling to do. It's proving VERY difficult to explain to NON-parents where I'm comig from on this when all of the PARENTS on this thread seem to understand it perfectly, bringing me to another one on my list:
"You will understand when you have kids of your own."
@ The Question:
Kids may not be your employees but the fundamentals are still the same. It's about wanting-no, expecting to be rewarded no matter what you do. You can't expect to just get what you want & not put in any of the effort. And kids who get away with this at home will become SOMEBODY'S employees and try the same crap with them. And how many times should I have to explain my reasoning to someone, huh? You just demonstrated that these young people-to whom I supposedly don't give enough credit-are quite capable of figuring out for themselves why they're told to do something. More often than not, "Why" is not a request for an explanation or an attempt at understanding; it's an attempt to get out of doing the task in question. THIS is why we resort to "Because I said so." Not because we don't want to answer it. But over time you learn to tell the difference between an honest inquiry and a challenge to your authority, and you react appropriately.

I just don't see why the dictatorship idea is a good ay to go. From what I've seen, families as dictatorships only breed resentment, a lack of communication, emotional barriers between the parents and children, and in many cases self esteem issues for the kids. Yes, it does maintain order for the most part. But I've found that kids in those situations rarely learn anything. It's hard to learn from someone who only gives you orders and doesn't actually discuss issues with you on an equal level. It's hard to learn from someone for whom you have no respect and who you feel has no respect for you. Now, kids aren't especially rational thinking that way, but they think that way because of their upbringing. I just don't see why families should be dictatorships. Families should be families. Groups of people who care about and try to understand each other, with elders who try to guide and teach the younger members and give them an environment for them to figure out who they are, as well as maintaining order and settling disputes. Yes, there do have to be rules and consequences after a while, but the second you take the role of dictator, the second you start saying things like "because I said so," that creates a gap between the adult and the child. And there shouldn't be gaps like that in families. That's not what a family is.

as for the whole work thing... again, I don't think explaining to kids why you want them to do something will make them bad employees. You seem to think that not laying down the law and saying stuff like "because I said so" will breed kids who are lazy and selfish and expect to get something for nothing. I think it's the opposite. If it is never explained why have responsibilities, they'll never understand responsibilities. If they're put in a situation early on where demands are made of them and they're expected to follow them no matter what and their voice isn't heard, all that's going to do is make them resentful of the authority figures in their life. It's not going to put them in a place where they're going to apply that experience to the rest of the world. Teaching through conditioning like that... it doesn't help someone develop, it just gives them a bunch of reflexes that they don't understand. A kid is more likely to grow up resentful of authority and thinking that they deserve reward without work if they grow up in an environment where authority figures are disrespectful and ask of them things that they don't want or need to do without explanation or choice. They'll think "I've had enough of this ********, I deserve more than this."

As for the whole why/challenging authority thing... do you really think that, when the why in question is simply designed to challenge authority, that simply laying down the law solves the issue? I think that it would be much more productive to try and talk to the kid about why they're challenging your authority. If you have a truly open discourse, maybe you'll both learn that you're doing things that really upset the other and come to an understanding. I mean, yes, the kid may not want to talk about it. But communication is a two way street. This fact applies to both kids and parents. Relationships can only be healthy if both sides are open to each other and listen to each other. And both sides can only do that if one side gets the ball rolling. If the kid refuses to do it, then the parent waiting until they do it first doesn't solve anything. And is kind of immature.

The exact same thing applies to schooling and adult/child relationships in general, I think.

 

[SpeterMan3]

Well I agree with CW. Even though I'm 15. Probably why my parents love me so much.

 

[C. Lee]

I have some serious questions for you The Question......

how old are you?
are you married?
do you have a job?
do you have children?

 

[The Question]

I have some serious questions for you The Question......

how old are you?
are you married?
do you have a job?
do you have children?

I'm 20 years old, I am single, I have a job (although a part time one because I go to school), and no I don't have any children. I see where you're going with this.

Yes, I've never had the experience of parenting itself. I don't know firsthand how hard it can be (although I don't think I've ever made the claim that parenting is easy). I do, however, understand people to a certain degree (although I'd never claim to know everything about people). I know what had positive and negative impacts on my development, I know what had positive and negative impacts on the development of people around me, I've seen families and schools of various types and I know which ones worked really well and which ones were riddled with problems, and I have a pretty good idea of how children learn, which is not comparable to how our society tries to teach children. I don't think I need to be a parent or a teacher to have the opinion that our society handles children poorly.

 

[The Question]

Again, I want to stress that my beef is mostly withy the general cultural attitude and with schools. Most of the parents I know are fine.

 

[E-Man]

I agree with The Question about the whole "because I said so" thing. I think a lot of parents get this complex about being questioned that they do more harm than good when they say that. The best way to help someone is to have them understand why your rules are helping them in the first place. I am building a new company, and I have three assistants helping me out. I give them tasks to do, and I explain it to them why it's going to benefit them. People are based on incentive. You have to give them a reason to do something, otherwise you're going to have problems getting them to do it in the first place. The incentive is not money or candy. The incentive I'm talking about is their well being. "You can't go out because you didn't do well on your grades. When you get older, you won't be able to do anything if you don't take care of what's important." That sounds a whole lot better than, "You can't go out because I said so! You live under my rules! Now sit your ass down somewhere!" The latter scenario does nothing but make the situation worse. Parents too often forget that they're supposed to guide their children to a "successful" life. They become too authoritarian, and then wonder why their kids hate them.

Now at the same time, there is a time for being hard. Don't misunderstand me saying there isn't. There are plenty of times when kids need that hard love. Part of guidance is being hard on someone when they need it. It's all about balance. There shouldn't be a black and white way of dealing with people. This is just from my experience in sales management. I don't claim to be an expert on anything but being sexy, cool, and super talented at life.t:

 

[Chris Wallace]

You guys keep seeming to think a household can be run as a democracy and it CAN'T. You cannot allow your child to think that he/she is your equal. And it's not about having a complex about being questioned, it's not wanting to be defied or disobeyed. As for incentive, how about the fact that you live in my house rent-free, eat food that I don't charge you for, wear the clothes that I buy, watch TV that I pay the cable bill on-I can go on & on. This is where respect & appreciation come in. "Because I said so" actually means "No free rides". Plus, I don't answer questions that the person already knows the answer to. A kid who didn't do well on his grades knows he didn't do well on his grades, & we've already had this discussion. So there's no need to reiterate. Additionally, sometimes it would actually take longer to explain than for the kid to do what they're told. I have my reasons, and I do NOT have to explain myself to you. Your child is not your equal and you do not always owe them an explanation. Do we demand explanations every time they want something? And some of the responses I've seen to the "Sense of entitlement" lead me to think that those of you who haven't experienced what we're talking about, equate "sense of entitlement" with "sense of drive or ambition". That's not what we're talking about here, but rather the opposite. Kids by & large do not have a whole lot of responsibilities, but many want to piss & moan every time one comes their way.
Again, remember, they are not your enemies. They aren't imposing rules just to make your life miserable, and they don't give you tasks just to piss you off. But they would do you a GRAVE disservice if they just let you get your way.

 

[The Question]

You guys keep seeming to think a household can be run as a democracy and it CAN'T. You cannot allow your child to think that he/she is your equal. And it's not about having a complex about being questioned, it's not wanting to be defied or disobeyed. As for incentive, how about the fact that you live in my house rent-free, eat food that I don't charge you for, wear the clothes that I buy, watch TV that I pay the cable bill on-I can go on & on. This is where respect & appreciation come in. "Because I said so" actually means "No free rides". Plus, I don't answer questions that the person already knows the answer to. A kid who didn't do well on his grades knows he didn't do well on his grades, & we've already had this discussion. So there's no need to reiterate. Additionally, sometimes it would actually take longer to explain than for the kid to do what they're told. I have my reasons, and I do NOT have to explain myself to you. Your child is not your equal and you do not always owe them an explanation. Do we demand explanations every time they want something? And some of the responses I've seen to the "Sense of entitlement" lead me to think that those of you who haven't experienced what we're talking about, equate "sense of entitlement" with "sense of drive or ambition". That's not what we're talking about here, but rather the opposite. Kids by & large do not have a whole lot of responsibilities, but many want to piss & moan every time one comes their way.
Again, remember, they are not your enemies. They aren't imposing rules just to make your life miserable, and they don't give you tasks just to piss you off. But they would do you a GRAVE disservice if they just let you get your way.

I think there's a middle ground between what you're talking about and total chaos. I think the attitude you're describing does not have a positive impact on kids. The part that's especially problematic is "you can't let your child think he/she is your equal." That's very dangerous. Yes, it has to be understood that you have more experience and resources than your child when it comes to making decisions. But if you try to make it clear that your child is not your equal, that has a very negative impact on their sense of self worth. I do think children and adults, as a whole, should be more equal. There are schools where everyone there, adult staff and students from the age of 4-19, have an equal say in running the school. Those schools have been around for decades and have turned out some incredibly well adjusted and mature adults.

I think there needs to be more discussion between adults and children in all settings. If you're and adult who is responsible for a child, your main responsibilities are to guide and teach them. Being a dictator doesn't teach them anything. "Because I said so" doesn't teach them anything. I know from experience that if kids are given more of a voice in how their lives are run, or at least talked to about it instead of just being ordered around, it does not lead to general chaos. It usually has pretty good results.

I ask you: Why can't a family be partially democratic? What would be the harm in open discussions about aspects of how the household is run that effects everyone? What's the harm in listening to each other, basically?

 

[The Question]

I agree with The Question about the whole "because I said so" thing. I think a lot of parents get this complex about being questioned that they do more harm than good when they say that. The best way to help someone is to have them understand why your rules are helping them in the first place. I am building a new company, and I have three assistants helping me out. I give them tasks to do, and I explain it to them why it's going to benefit them. People are based on incentive. You have to give them a reason to do something, otherwise you're going to have problems getting them to do it in the first place. The incentive is not money or candy. The incentive I'm talking about is their well being. "You can't go out because you didn't do well on your grades. When you get older, you won't be able to do anything if you don't take care of what's important." That sounds a whole lot better than, "You can't go out because I said so! You live under my rules! Now sit your ass down somewhere!" The latter scenario does nothing but make the situation worse. Parents too often forget that they're supposed to guide their children to a "successful" life. They become too authoritarian, and then wonder why their kids hate them.

Now at the same time, there is a time for being hard. Don't misunderstand me saying there isn't. There are plenty of times when kids need that hard love. Part of guidance is being hard on someone when they need it. It's all about balance. There shouldn't be a black and white way of dealing with people. This is just from my experience in sales management. I don't claim to be an expert on anything but being sexy, cool, and super talented at life.t:

This, I agree with. I think my comments have made it sound like kids should never face consequences, which is not at all what I believe. I just think that our current idea of "all rules and consequences all the time" needs to be scaled back.

I also think priorities are an issue. Personally, I think our schools are a joke, and the idea that you need to do well in school to succeed later in life is flawed. I do think kids need an academic environment to nurture them and supply them with opportunities and tools to learn and grow into who they want to become, but I think our current school system runs counter to that. And I know and know of plenty of people who never went to college or dropped out of high school and got their GED (or both) who went on to be very successful. I think we have a lot of flawed ideas about what kids need, basically.

 

[C. Lee]

I think there's a middle ground between what you're talking about and total chaos. I think the attitude you're describing does not have a positive impact on kids. The part that's especially problematic is "you can't let your child think he/she is your equal." That's very dangerous. Yes, it has to be understood that you have more experience and resources than your child when it comes to making decisions. But if you try to make it clear that your child is not your equal, that has a very negative impact on their sense of self worth. I do think children and adults, as a whole, should be more equal. There are schools where everyone there, adult staff and students from the age of 4-19, have an equal say in running the school. Those schools have been around for decades and have turned out some incredibly well adjusted and mature adults.

I think there needs to be more discussion between adults and children in all settings. If you're and adult who is responsible for a child, your main responsibilities are to guide and teach them. Being a dictator doesn't teach them anything. "Because I said so" doesn't teach them anything. I know from experience that if kids are given more of a voice in how their lives are run, or at least talked to about it instead of just being ordered around, it does not lead to general chaos. It usually has pretty good results.

I ask you: Why can't a family be partially democratic? What would be the harm in open discussions about aspects of how the household is run that effects everyone? What's the harm in listening to each other, basically?

And I feel that is because of many people raising their kids that way over the last couple of decades that we have a country full of kids that feel they are entitled to whatever they want whenever they want.

A parent can be friendly with their kids....but they can't be their kids friends. One is the parent....the other is a child. Parents have to set and enforce rules. You can make your kid feel good about themselves without turning them into narcissistic spoiled brats.

 

[The Question]

And I feel that is because of many people raising their kids that way over the last couple of decades that we have a country full of kids that feel they are entitled to whatever they want whenever they want.

A parent can be friendly with their kids....but they can't be their kids friends. One is the parent....the other is a child. Parents have to set and enforce rules. You can make your kid feel good about themselves without turning them into narcissistic spoiled brats.

I agree with the second part, for the most part. But I don't think the problem is a lack of discipline. I think the problem is a lack of communication and mutual respect. We're less strict in a lot of ways, which means that kids are less inclines to behave out of fear. But they're still talked at and talked down to and rarely listened to seriously, which means they still have an inclination to act out and have a hard time developing good social skills. Our schools perpetuate this more than parents do, really. Parents may loosen up a bit but kids still have to go to prison for six hours a day. I think a lot of the sense of entitlement doesn't come from giving them more freedom, it comes from not giving them the freedom to do things that it's fairly plain to see that they should have the freedom to do. I'm not advocating for a a state of anarchy. I'm advocating for a middle ground. The cultural attitude towards children is changing, but the problems aren't going to be solved by going backwards, they're just going to be less obvious. We need to keep moving forward.

I mean, really, having open and honest discourse with anyone, listening to them and in turn teaching them to listen, doesn't teach them that they're entitled to whatever they want whenever they want. It teaches them empathy and social skills.

I do understand what you're saying and where you're coming from. I just have not seen that to be completely true in my experiences with children and families and education. Granted, my experience is different from yours, so maybe that's why we don't see eye to eye.