The Future of Super Villains in post Civil War Marvel

[LouFerignoDemon]

As I said, it was but a mere digression.



Sure, there'll be a crackdown, but how much more can he do? SHEILD agents can't patrol the streets like that. And, as I said, it's not like the villains weren't wanted by the police before. Really, for them, nothing's changed. They're still outlaws, the police are on most of their asses, and the feds and SHEILD are hunting for the more dangerous ones (Red Skull, Magneto, etc.). Crime will survive as crime has always survived: By having no regard for the law.

Actually, given the fact they're looking for ANY superhumans, and there's probably only specialty factions devoted to looking for the more dangerous, headed up by powered humans over cape killers, I'd say that most places are fairly well covered.

 

[The Question]

The thing is, the remaining Super villains need to organize. More than ever they need to come together as a community, like the society. The DCU's super villains are a community. Sure there is back stabbing and crooked s**t going on, but hey, they're bad guys, that's to be expected. That is what the Marvel Villains need to do, and that's the way I figure it will eventually go. I think everything is being set up for Osbourne to take advantage of his position, his access to many dangerous super villains, plus sensitive government information, and build his own army. Trust me, when WWH goes down, there's a very good chance the T-Bolts are gonna make a move. Either during or after. And that would be something to see.

Honestly, I don't want to see them organize like that. That's one of the problems I have with the Society. All of the villains are involved. People with completely different goals and motivations and personal morals who normally should, in many cases, want nothing to do with each other. And they're all together just 'cause they're evil. That being said, I'm not against a massive criminal organization in the MU. I'd just prefer one that makes a bit more sense.

Actually, given the fact they're looking for ANY superhumans, and there's probably only specialty factions devoted to looking for the more dangerous, headed up by powered humans over cape killers, I'd say that most places are fairly well covered.

Sorry. I forgot that they completely changed the wording of the law halfway through the storyline. Anyway, they still can't patrol the streets like that. America's massive and there aren't that many agents in any agency.

 

[Anubis]

Kingpin's been neutralized and Kingpin tricking the pro reg side into taking out Hammerhead did nothing to improve the lot of super villains in CW. Why didn't some B-list masterminds like Mad Thinker or Count Nefaria try somethig big? What possible power base that was consolidated by the villains during CW can comapre with the massive power base Stark has created? The fact stark was allowed to amass as much power as he did, is a total failure for the super villains of MU.

The Thinker did make a move, if you'd recall, along with the Puppet Master. Didn't do much of anything except possible exacerbate the problem. Nefaria, Basically just got out of jail. Probably still trying to get the Maggia back under his control. Ultimately, what were they gonna do? I mean, really? I'll tell you what? Nothing they were gonna be able to get away with before, or after the War. They didn't just fight each other in the street. Not only was Cap and his team taking out villains, but so was Stark and the rest of the Pro-Regs. So Nefaria, by himself, with little time to put together a proper plan, suddenly makes a big move trying to take advantage of the War, and he just gets beat with the combined might of Sentry, Clor, the T-Bolts, and I don't know, Ms. Marvel. Nobody was gonna get anything done during that war. Certainly not with everybody on high alert.

 

[The Overlord]

Go back and look at what I responded to towards you before you ask the Omega Red question again.

And let me now lay it out.

Super Villans are fairly unorganized outside a few. So, with Stark out with his heros on patrol looking for villans, this is what would happen.

A villan pops up, the store owner calls the police, which in turn alerts the heros. The heros rush out, and capture said villan through a highly organized fashion. And really, it's not just Tony, SHIELD is aiding in this, and they're everywhere.

So....them taking advantage? Doesn't happen in a system where they're just looking like crazy for villans.


Maybe they'd tag him with...I dunno...nanites?

You said "Given our current opinion of America, we'd probably ask another country first". Name one country that has as many superheroes that are as organized and as effective as the US has now? So what the US is going to hope that Omega Flight takes care of Omega Red before he launches a nuke at Washington or something. Unlikely.

Also did you ignore my Mad Thinker example or something. Let me lay it out for you, the mad thinker is expert on predicting future events, so he predicts when it is likely the heroes will be fighting eachother, so organizes something at that point when they are distracted. See the best way to fight organized super heroes, is too use someone who can turn predictiblity disadvanatage, like the mad thinker. But none of the writers wanted the villains to look competent in CW, so it didn't happen.

But let ask you this, now that the CW is over and Stark has control over an army heroes and sHIELD,now are the villains supposed to pose threat to the heroes now? the heroes are now even more orgasnized then they were during CW.

Also if the government does have nano contol over Osborn, it seems unlikely he will be a threat in the future.

 

[The Overlord]

The Thinker did make a move, if you'd recall, along with the Puppet Master. Didn't do much of anything except possible exacerbate the problem. Nefaria, Basically just got out of jail. Probably still trying to get the Maggia back under his control. Ultimately, what were they gonna do? I mean, really? I'll tell you what? Nothing they were gonna be able to get away with before, or after the War. They didn't just fight each other in the street. Not only was Cap and his team taking out villains, but so was Stark and the rest of the Pro-Regs. So Nefaria, by himself, with little time to put together a proper plan, suddenly makes a big move trying to take advantage of the War, and he just gets beat with the combined might of Sentry, Clor, the T-Bolts, and I don't know, Ms. Marvel. Nobody was gonna get anything done during that war. Certainly not with everybody on high alert.

Thinker made Thing move to France, big deal. But let me ask you this, if the villains couldn't pose a threat to the heroes when they were engage in a civil war, how are the villains supposed to pose a threat to heroes now that they are organized into a giant army with governemnt backing. This crossover has completely defanged the super villains of MU.

 

[LouFerignoDemon]

You said "Given our current opinion of America, we'd probably ask another country first". Name one country that has as many superheroes that are as organized and as effective as the US has now? So what the US is going to hope that Omega Flight takes care of Omega Red before he launches a nuke at Washington or something. Unlikely.

Also did you ignore my Mad Thinker example or something. Let me lay it out for you, the mad thinker is expert on predicting future events, so he predicts when it is likely the heroes will be fighting eachother, so organizes something at that point when they are distracted. See the best way to fight organized super heroes, is too use someone who can turn predictiblity disadvanatage, like the mad thinker. But none of the writers wanted the villains to look competent in CW, so it didn't happen.

But let ask you this, now that the CW is over and Stark has control over an army heroes and sHIELD,now are the villains supposed to pose threat to the heroes now? the heroes are now even more orgasnized then they were during CW.

Also if the government does have nano contol over Osborn, it seems unlikely he will be a threat in the future.

No, being from France, and we were invaded by another country, we'd ask Britan first. We'd ask Russia, we'd ask someone else.

As for your Mad Thinker example that was stumped because he failed, and he's the best basically, it doesn't work.

Either way, there was no way for villans to capitilize on it. You may wish to think that villans apparently had this advantage in a confusion that didn't really exist, but they didn't.

 

[The Question]

The Thinker did make a move, if you'd recall, along with the Puppet Master. Didn't do much of anything except possible exacerbate the problem. Nefaria, Basically just got out of jail. Probably still trying to get the Maggia back under his control. Ultimately, what were they gonna do? I mean, really? I'll tell you what? Nothing they were gonna be able to get away with before, or after the War. They didn't just fight each other in the street. Not only was Cap and his team taking out villains, but so was Stark and the rest of the Pro-Regs. So Nefaria, by himself, with little time to put together a proper plan, suddenly makes a big move trying to take advantage of the War, and he just gets beat with the combined might of Sentry, Clor, the T-Bolts, and I don't know, Ms. Marvel. Nobody was gonna get anything done during that war. Certainly not with everybody on high alert.

That's why I think Nefaria should go back to his roots. He got way into his pechant for holding hostages and even entire cities for ransom, and trying to get revenge on The Avengers and whatever other masked vigilante, fed, or cop who'd hurt him. He should start up a gang and, using his powers, start wasting the compitition until he's got a massive territory. Get a few other big mobster/superhuman types in on it to help him run the operation. I was thinking of a line up like:

Nefaria

Hippolyta

The Abomination

Taskmaster

Green Goblin

Selene


Once things get too big to be handled like a standard gang, they start running it like a corperation, with hundreds, eventually even thousands, of people working under them as their "employees." The core group could serve as a sort of board of directors. They'd all have a say in how things are un, and they'd vote on it like a board does. Also, each would have their own specialty. Osborn would be in charge of running their legitmate front. Hippolyta would be in charge of recruitment, scouting street gangs, inner city schools, and the otherwise socially disenfranchised. Taskmaster would be in charge of training the newbies, and along with A-bomb, would be a major leg breaker and hitman for the organization. Selene would be the one forging aliases for the core members and any underlings who need them, and would be in charge of creating the "dirt bank," an added incentive for loyalty that gives every member of the core group some kind of hold over the others or information that could be used against them. This is mostly to keep loose cannons like Osborn in line. This also gives them something to be used against their underlings. Nefaria is the mastermind of the whole thing, and is comperable to the president of the board.

 

[The Overlord]

No, being from France, and we were invaded by another country, we'd ask Britan first. We'd ask Russia, we'd ask someone else.

As for your Mad Thinker example that was stumped because he failed, and he's the best basically, it doesn't work.

Either way, there was no way for villans to capitilize on it. You may wish to think that villans apparently had this advantage in a confusion that didn't really exist, but they didn't.

I don't think Russia has a whole lot of super heroes, all Russian super beings either moved to the US or are completely insane. I doubt the French government would want help from Omega Red or Crimson Dynamo. Let's say Doom invaded France and let's face it only Reed Richards can out smart Doom. Would France perfer to let it be conquered by Doom rather than ask the US for help?

Let me ask you again, if super villains couldn't pose a threat when the super hero community was fighting eachother, how are super villains supposed to pose a threat when the heroes are organized into a giant army with government. Seems like Marvel has rendered its super villains irrelevant.

 

[The Question]

I don't think Russia has a whole lot of super heroes, all Russian super beings either moved to the US or are completely insane. I doubt the French government would want help from Omega Red or Crimson Dynamo.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_Guard

Let's say Doom invaded France and let's face it only Reed Richards can out smart Doom. Would France perfer to let it be conquered by Doom rather than ask the US for help?

That's rather flimsy logic. Just because Doom has a vendetta against Reed doesn't mean Reed is the only person on the planet who can outsmart Doom. Besides, as I said: Countries getting taken over by external or internal forces isn't a rarity. The U.S. doesn't intervene every time. Nor can it.

Let me ask you again, if super villains couldn't pose a threat when the super hero community was fighting eachother, how are super villains supposed to pose a threat when the heroes are organized into a giant army with government. Seems like Marvel has rendered its super villains irrelevant.

Again, I question your logic. Now, rationality and logical thinking are not my areas of expertese (I'm much more of a people person, and people are highly illogical), but that still seems like a bit of a streach to me. Yes, the heroes would be more organized. But that wouldn't change the illegality of what the criminal element is doing. Organized crime, psycho killers, and robbers would still be doing their thing. Being more organized doesn't make you omnipotent.

 

[LouFerignoDemon]

I don't think Russia has a whole lot of super heroes, all Russian super beings either moved to the US or are completely insane. I doubt the French government would want help from Omega Red or Crimson Dynamo. Let's say Doom invaded France and let's face it only Reed Richards can out smart Doom. Would France perfer to let it be conquered by Doom rather than ask the US for help?

Let me ask you again, if super villains couldn't pose a threat when the super hero community was fighting eachother, how are super villains supposed to pose a threat when the heroes are organized into a giant army with government. Seems like Marvel has rendered its super villains irrelevant.

Okay, I was born, raised, and currently live in France, and am probably one of the most American friendly French around, and I'm telling you, the French have more options than America, and would use it.

Just because you're not aware of other superhumans, does not mean they do not exist.

Though I do like how you make it sound like without America, France would just fall. I would ALMOST say that's a typical American to put Americans so high up on the ladder. The world is much more expansive.

And your point to your second thought there is derailing from the original argument. You poised the idea that super villans should take advantage of the situation, and I made the point they couldn't.

Now, as for the task of how they're going to be useful at all? That's to be seen.

 

[The Overlord]

Okay, I was born, raised, and currently live in France, and am probably one of the most American friendly French around, and I'm telling you, the French have more options than America, and would use it.

Just because you're not aware of other superhumans, does not mean they do not exist.

Though I do like how you make it sound like without America, France would just fall. I would ALMOST say that's a typical American to put Americans so high up on the ladder. The world is much more expansive.

And your point to your second thought there is derailing from the original argument. You poised the idea that super villans should take advantage of the situation, and I made the point they couldn't.

Now, as for the task of how they're going to be useful at all? That's to be seen.

I'm not American, I'm Canadian (well I'm half American, but I was raised and still live in Canada). We are taking about MU Earth, not the real world and MU Earth is very American centric. I have never heard of a French super hero team in MU and I have heard of team heroes besides the FF that can defeat Doom on a regular basis (the X-Men and the Avengers are lucky to survive encounters with Doom) are saying that Excalibur can suceed where others have failed and defeat Doom without Richards help?

Also I am not derailing this thread, because the question I asked in my original post what is the future of Marvel super villains in post CW world, so the discussion on whether super villains were taking advantage of the CW or notr was the derailment, the main question of this thread is whether villains can remain relevant in the post CW and you have not answered that question.

 

[The Overlord]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_Guard



That's rather flimsy logic. Just because Doom has a vendetta against Reed doesn't mean Reed is the only person on the planet who can outsmart Doom. Besides, as I said: Countries getting taken over by external or internal forces isn't a rarity. The U.S. doesn't intervene every time. Nor can it.



Again, I question your logic. Now, rationality and logical thinking are not my areas of expertese (I'm much more of a people person, and people are highly illogical), but that still seems like a bit of a streach to me. Yes, the heroes would be more organized. But that wouldn't change the illegality of what the criminal element is doing. Organized crime, psycho killers, and robbers would still be doing their thing. Being more organized doesn't make you omnipotent.

Super heroes are more organized and the have the backing of government resources. Plus after CW 7 it looks villains will be imprisoned in the Negative Zone prison, the 42. How will villains be a threat if the heroes can send them to a prison that is inescapable? So the now heroes are more organized, have government resources and have a prison that is almost impossible to escape from. How are villains supposed to pose a threat in this enviroment? Right now Stark holds all the cards, exactly what advantages do the villains have?
Sooner or later the heroes will catch every super powered theif and psycho killer and send them to an prison where escape is almost impossible. Heroes when they were less organized have captured villains before, now its almost an guarntee. name one thing super villains can do to pose a threat in this enviroment.

Also name someone besides Reed Richards who has outsmarted Doom, without it coming it off as bad writing.

Also, by the by, your whole Count Nefaria idea won't happen. Bendis has already declared that the Hood will be Kingpin's replacement "a Kingpin of super villains" if you will. Frankly this illogical the hood was nothing more than petty thug before now, so him going from a petty thug to the boss of bosses is completely illogical. So I guess Nefaria will left in the cold, while Bendis promotes his new mary sue character. I guess the only way to be a threatening villain in MU nowadays is to be a total mary sue character.

 

[The Question]

Super heroes are more organized and the have the backing of government resources.

So? All that means is that the government has more people working for them. More manpower doesn't make you omnipotent. Plus, some heroes had government backing before Civil War. Now it's just that more do.

Plus after CW 7 it looks villains will be imprisoned in the Negative Zone prison, the 42. How will villains be a threat if the heroes can send them to a prison that is inescapable?

By not getting caught in the first place, maybe?

So the now heroes are more organized, have government resources and have a prison that is almost impossible to escape from. How are villains supposed to pose a threat in this enviroment? Right now Stark holds all the cards, exactly what advantages do the villains have?

Like I said, by doing what they've always done: Evading the law. So what if the feds have many more super powered agents? They can't be everywhere at every time. They can't patrol every street corner in the country on a 24 hour basis. First off, that would essentially be Martial Law, and that can't just happen without a major crisis, and even then would most likely be contained within a few cities. Second, there are probably much bigger threats going on. For example: If Magneto or the Red Skull starts destroying Time's Square, and at the same time The Shocker and The Trapster are lotting stores in the confusion, who are The Avengers going to go after first? As long as the smart criminals avoid the law as they have in the past, they should be fine.

Sooner or later the heroes will catch every super powered theif and psycho killer and send them to an prison where escape is almost impossible. Heroes when they were less organized have captured villains before, now its almost an guarntee.

That's completely flimsy logic. Yes, they have captured villains before. They've also gotten the crap beat out of them by villains before. Yes, they'll probably be able to take out some more (and legally arrest them to boot), but that doesn't mean that they're going to capture every criminal in the country. No law enforcement agency outside of a dictatorship is that effective. And even dictatorships aren't 100% crime free.

Also name someone besides Reed Richards who has outsmarted Doom, without it coming it off as bad writing.

Just because it hasn't happened before doesn't mean it can't. The only reason Reed has been one of the few to match wits with Doom before is because he and Doom are rivals. Naturally, they're going to lock horns the most.

Also, by the by, your whole Count Nefaria idea won't happen. Bendis has already declared that the Hood will be Kingpin's replacement "a Kingpin of super villains" if you will.

The countries a big place. Plenty of room for more than one criminal mastermind.

Frankly this illogical the hood was nothing more than petty thug before now, so him going from a petty thug to the boss of bosses is completely illogical.

Not really. All big bossess in the mob started out as petty thugs.

 

[The Overlord]

So? All that means is that the government has more people working for them. More manpower doesn't make you omnipotent. Plus, some heroes had government backing before Civil War. Now it's just that more do.



By not getting caught in the first place, maybe?



Like I said, by doing what they've always done: Evading the law. So what if the feds have many more super powered agents? They can't be everywhere at every time. They can't patrol every street corner in the country on a 24 hour basis. First off, that would essentially be Martial Law, and that can't just happen without a major crisis, and even then would most likely be contained within a few cities. Second, there are probably much bigger threats going on. For example: If Magneto or the Red Skull starts destroying Time's Square, and at the same time The Shocker and The Trapster are lotting stores in the confusion, who are The Avengers going to go after first? As long as the smart criminals avoid the law as they have in the past, they should be fine.

How may super villains have never been captured or imprisoned, before CW? I think Doom is about it when it comes to human based villains, maybe the Red Skull as well, even Magneto has been imprisoned once. How many villains have sucessful evaded the law for several years at a time? The vast majority of human super villains have been captured and have been to jail, often several times. But now they are being sent a prison in the negative zone, how are the villains supposed to escape from that?

As for street level villains commiting crimes while the heroes are busy with bigger villains:

A) Why didn't any street level villains do that during CW when the heroes were fighting eachother.

B) What's stop Tony from having teams of high powered heroes to deal with Magneto causing problems, while having teams of street level heroes to deal with street crime while the the other heroes are busy (after all Hellcat and Nighthawk would be usless against Mags, so why not have them handle Trapster instead?)

That's completely flimsy logic. Yes, they have captured villains before. They've also gotten the crap beat out of them by villains before. Yes, they'll probably be able to take out some more (and legally arrest them to boot), but that doesn't mean that they're going to capture every criminal in the country. No law enforcement agency outside of a dictatorship is that effective. And even dictatorships aren't 100% crime free.

They never put villains in a prison in the negative zone before. Besides how the hell are villains supposed to beat the heroes now that the heroes are more organized and have more resources than the villains. Seems like if you mess with one hero, you will now have hundreds after you, from now on. Seems like now no major crimes or world conquest attempts can be attempted without being smacked down by a 100 heroes before anything can happen. Seems like villains will have to stick to knocking over candy stores in small town Ohio, to avoid the notice of super heroes now.

Just because it hasn't happened before doesn't mean it can't. The only reason Reed has been one of the few to match wits with Doom before is because he and Doom are rivals. Naturally, they're going to lock horns the most.

I'll beleve it when I see it and see if it comes off as bad writting or not.

The countries a big place. Plenty of room for more than one criminal mastermind.



Not really. All big bossess in the mob started out as petty thugs.

All mob bosses start as petty thugs, but they spend years paying their dues before becoming top boss, the Hood becoming the Kingpin is like a guy in company going from the mail room to becoming a CEO, with nothing in between, its illogical.

 

[Tropico]

Villains de-fanged? Then you should say the same thing about the heroes. Not only will they have to follow procedures they didn't have to deal with before and probably have to worry about looking out for non-super SHIELD backup but they'll have to prioritize damage and bystanders even more than before. Villains were still operating while CW was going on, a lot of people seem to forget that the Resistance wasn't just hiding out and picking fights with the SHRA when they tried to release arrested heroes, they were also patrolling and stopping villains. There wasn't that much of a foothold to take advantage of.

I remember when the Vault was introduced and we were led to believe that it would be an inescapable prison. Where's the Vault now? What about the Big House (I think it's called), the miniaturized prison Pym made? I'm supposed to believe that "Cloud 9" is supposed to be impregnable when it has already been shown that it can be breached twice? Puh-leeze!!!

There's still a traitor in the SHRA's midst that has the tech to deactivate the nanos. He/she can still supply more info and tech to sabotage the SHRA groups. All a villain needs to turn the tables on a Thunderbolt assisted group is to have the tech to block frequencies and there goes radio backup and a means to send signals to the nanos to incapacitate the villains under the Thunderbolt program. Instant advantage for the "escapee".

I don't see this as de-fanging the villains, it's just an obstacle that they'll circumvent like they have before. Some villains actually thrive when they're given a challenge. They can buy or blackmail government officials, use easily corruptible new hero recruits, dirty cops of SHIELD agents. Really, the sky's the limit if you have enough imagination.

 

[3dman27]

Bah I'm sick of heroes fighting rogue heroes we already had a ton of that in CW, I want some super villain action.



Your telling me that some super villain couldn't have taken advantage of this stituation if they tried? Plus look at the status quo now, the super heroes are organized into a giant army with government resources backing them, how is a better time to strike? How are the villains supposed to be a threat at all in this enviroment? The CW crossover completely defanged the super villains of MU.

good point there

 

[TheCorpulent1]

The supervillains could organize, too. Oh, but I guess that'd basically make it like the superheroes/Secret Society conflict at DC. Yeah, it seems like Marvel might've shot itself in the foot here...

 

[LouFerignoDemon]

So we get Marvel Zombies that say how Marvel does it so much better.

 

[The Question]

How may super villains have never been captured or imprisoned, before CW? I think Doom is about it when it comes to human based villains, maybe the Red Skull as well, even Magneto has been imprisoned once. How many villains have sucessful evaded the law for several years at a time? The vast majority of human super villains have been captured and have been to jail, often several times. But now they are being sent a prison in the negative zone, how are the villains supposed to escape from that?

Obviously, they won't. But a majority of the villains have spent several years between imprisonments. And really, the number of arrests in recent years has dropped dramatically, as the villains are more likely to escape before the police can arrest them. At least, that's the way it's been looking to me.

As for street level villains commiting crimes while the heroes are busy with bigger villains:

A) Why didn't any street level villains do that during CW when the heroes were fighting eachother.

They were. Did you miss the part where it showed Cap and his group handing criminals over to the police while on the run?

B) What's stop Tony from having teams of high powered heroes to deal with Magneto causing problems, while having teams of street level heroes to deal with street crime while the the other heroes are busy (after all Hellcat and Nighthawk would be usless against Mags, so why not have them handle Trapster instead?)

Because they can't be everywhere. That's why crimes happen even though we have a police force. No organization can prevent crimes or stop crimes in progress all the time. That kind of manpower doesn't exist.

They never put villains in a prison in the negative zone before. Besides how the hell are villains supposed to beat the heroes now that the heroes are more organized and have more resources than the villains. Seems like if you mess with one hero, you will now have hundreds after you, from now on. Seems like now no major crimes or world conquest attempts can be attempted without being smacked down by a 100 heroes before anything can happen. Seems like villains will have to stick to knocking over candy stores in small town Ohio, to avoid the notice of super heroes now.

Again, they aren't acting like armies. Crime goes on all over the country. You can't send hundreds of guys to go after one killer because the have other things to do. The heroes will be more effective, no doubt. But that doesn't mean the villains will be completely ineffective.

All mob bosses start as petty thugs, but they spend years paying their dues before becoming top boss, the Hood becoming the Kingpin is like a guy in company going from the mail room to becoming a CEO, with nothing in between, its illogical.

No, it's not. And that's not always how it happens. A low level thug could become Kingpin simply by killing everyone who says otherwise.

 

[Dread]

A very interesting discussion as I have feared about this lapse myself. I think the problem runs deeper than storyline details. The problem runs into the philosophy at Marvel.

The impression I keep getting is that Marvel feels the concept of a supervillian is outdated, cliche, and limiting. They see superheroes as protagonists and anyone they have conflict with as antagonists, and in attempting to be more modern, they have the belief that the audience cares more when Cap is fighting Iron Man then when he is fighting Batroc. Surely 300-400k sales are not doing to change this belief. However, some villians have become popular themselves, so they are used...over and over and over and over and over and over and over. These are limited to the A-Listers. Spider-Man fortunately has maybe a dozen A-list rogues, even if Norman Osborn is easily the most overused. But for most franchises they have under a half dozen, so you see the likes of Magneto or Red Skull used repeatedly. Lessor villians are seen as little more than midbreak action sequences so they rarely are developped, explored or improved upon. It does happen; Bendis on Purple Man is a good example, but it has become exceedingly rare.

I do see the concept of an N-Zone prison that cannot be escaped from as limiting for Supervillians. At least until you mention the objective facts that:

1). If the Secret Avengers could stage a breakout, why not resourceful villians?

2). Other prisons were treated this way, most notably the Vault during the 90's.

The Negative Zone takes it to an extreme, though. Rogues are not meant to escape and the public is supposed to favor these sort of Gulags (while in real life, Guatanimo Bay is seen as a travesty; Marvel should at least get their Liberalism straight).

Then you factor in all the villians who are dead or fleeing to Canada, and the scores who have become Thunderbolts. The pool is running dry with very little to replace it. Bendis wants to set up The Hood to replace Kingpin, but that's about it.

I can see major concerns unless the philosophy changes and Marvel realizes that villians are still vital and can bring plenty of excitement. They need to organize, but they also have to be amped up, made more relevent.

 

[Artistsean]

I think that some major villian like Mephisto, or Loki (is he dead, or still dead?), Kang, or someone MAJOR, will blow up in a big way. It seemed like maybe Hulk would force an end to the outcome of Civil War and show that all the heroes are needed. But probably not.

I don't know, maybe that Sally woman is actually someone like Mephisto and was orcistrating the whole Civil War.

If America becomes virtually crime and super villian free than Tony was right and he did got the job done didn't he?
Are all super powered people forced to work for the government now? how do they legally get that? What was the law again?

 

[The Question]

My problem with how Marvel has treated it's villains in the past, and DC for that matter, is that they've often times treated the non A-list villains as somewhat interchangeble. When they need someone to fight someone, or if they need a super villain team, they just get villains that look cool without paying much atention to wether or not it fits the character's personality. I'm hoping that, post Civil War, they're individuality will be better defined in how they react and adapt to the new changes in the law.

 

[blud_knight]

^ well in all fairness some of the b-list villans are fairly interchangable

 

[The Question]

^ well in all fairness some of the b-list villans are fairly interchangable

To a degree, maybe. But whenever there's a villain team up, they grab a bunch of non A-listers who either look cool or have powers that work for the given situation, or even completely at random, with little or no regard as to wether the characters would actually do that. Think of all the Masters of Evil teams there have been. Do you think that, in any of those stories, the writer stopped to think if any of the villains in question would feel comfortable teaming up with a racist and elitist who's family has caused thousands of deaths? It's that sort of thing that I'm talking about.

 

[Dread]

While I haven't actually played the game MARVEL: ULTIMATE ALLIANCE, in a way it could have been interesting of Dr. Doom attempted to rally the "supervillian community" in a way, much like the Secret Society did at DC. SECRET WAR played with the concept of his sucessor (as he was still "dead" at the time) funding supervillian terror and despite some hassles with that story, the idea itself isn't bad. Dr. Doom has backed/created some supervillians before (Titania, anyone?). Besides, it seems like a waste that all he has done is attempt to claim Thor's hammer.

My problem with how Marvel has treated it's villains in the past, and DC for that matter, is that they've often times treated the non A-list villains as somewhat interchangeble. When they need someone to fight someone, or if they need a super villain team, they just get villains that look cool without paying much atention to wether or not it fits the character's personality. I'm hoping that, post Civil War, they're individuality will be better defined in how they react and adapt to the new changes in the law.

To a degree, maybe. But whenever there's a villain team up, they grab a bunch of non A-listers who either look cool or have powers that work for the given situation, or even completely at random, with little or no regard as to wether the characters would actually do that. Think of all the Masters of Evil teams there have been. Do you think that, in any of those stories, the writer stopped to think if any of the villains in question would feel comfortable teaming up with a racist and elitist who's family has caused thousands of deaths? It's that sort of thing that I'm talking about.

I understand what you mean. Many times the A-Listers are the ones who get fleshed out, given depth, and whatnot, and a lot of times the B and C (or lower) listers sort of show up when the scene needs a fight and are picked either for history or visual garb/power and not distinctly for personality, which has been left to linger. Some people, for instance, can't see why Trapster didn't just use his paste to become rich by selling it as an adhesive vs. going to crime out of some sort of "arrogance" (especially, as an ex Pro-Commie villian, he hasn't been updated well).

There have been some comics that have attempted to visualize a supervillian underworld; unfortunately it almost always results in some raid or something that leads to most of the villians being arrested or killed; CW: WAR CRIMES and PWJ #4 are good examples. But more has to be done.

The best example of what the optimal result would be is Geoff Jones' Rogues from THE FLASH. Here he took a bunch of classic baddies who in many ways could have been far lamer and outdated than many of Marvel's villians and really made them work as tight knit cabal. They all had an "angle" or something that made them unique, and were above all a challenge. Villians have to consistantly provide challenge; be it an upgraded costume, more practice with their powers, etc, otherwise the hero doesn't have to rise up in kind to prevail and then it just gets boring. Unfortunately, few writers really excell at amping up lower listing villians, and there are few new villians being created to replace the scores that get arrested or killed every year. There's Underworld to some extent, but I can't think of too many others. Bendis averages one amped up baddie every few years; Purple Man was maybe 3 years ago and The Hood is next.

Too often writers do what I call a "One Shot Rogue Syndrome", in which a villian is created for one arc and then is dealt with in a way that he/she cannot return again. JMS made a practice of this in ASM and he's not alone; even Vaughan did this with Nicodemous West in DR. STRANGE: OATH (which was excellent; buy it). What many fail to understand is that if you're not going to write or amp a villian, it was repeat appearences that propelled some at least into B-List. Enough chances to get them right.

Villians, like heroes, have to adapt for the 21st century, but in many ways Marvel is becoming too obsessed with making all their heroes into angsty "gray" characters who can either make blunders or commit atrocities at the drop of a hat, and at best the villians are pawns. In CW, the villians only serve as pawns mostly, and even the one who got amped the most, Nitro, has been "dealt with" by Namor.

I think with work things can be done. The Mafia elements as with UNDERWORLD and what not can be embellished especially in the post SOPRONOS and End-Of-The-CCO age (The CCO prevented "encouraging" crime in many ways). You could have like minded villians form gangs just like troupes of burglars do in real life; why need a team? Why can't they be 4 rogues out to grab a score? If they lose they need to be challenging, and they need to eke out some small victories. I'm not talking about icing some sacricifial hero just for a one shot, I mean a consistant sort of vibe. After all, it's the heroes, not the villians, who are more constricted post CW; the IRON FIST issues all but hint at that (HYDRA can flee the scene knowing that the police will be just as eager to arrest Iron Fist as any of them, if not moreso). But the editorial will has to be there, and as long as the Marvel people see villians as outdated action sequence machines, none of this can happen.