The Guns thread

[TheCommissioner]

I bet if a bunch of black people took up arms, laws would get changed really quick


Im in favor of a death tax, you want to own automatic weapons, thats fine, youre paying a yearly tax on them, just like taxes on your car or property

 

[DarkKnight]

I just don't understand this mentality of "people will still find a way to get them so what's the point?"

It's not just a mentality its a fact. I'm not sure where you are from, or what experience you have with firearms or the availability of firearms and firearms parts. But they are literally everywhere. Its just not as simple as stopping production of high capacity magazines. How does that make all the ones in existence just disappear? it doesn't.

 

[TheCommissioner]

so do nothing and let this happen once a week,great at least we know where you stand

 

[DarkKnight]

I bet if a bunch of black people took up arms, laws would get changed really quick


Im in favor of a death tax, you want to own automatic weapons, thats fine, youre paying a yearly tax on them, just like taxes on your car or property

That is already in existence, for Automatic firearms. The only way a person can own a Automatic weapon is if they have a certain class firearms license and they must pay a yearly tax on that license.
However, Automatic, and semiautomatic weapons are NOT the same thing so a AR-15 being semi-automatic does not fall under this law.

 

[TheCommissioner]

I know about the license tax, this would be additional

and expand the law to include any semi automatic weapon that can be modified into an automatic...you can do that with an AR-15

****, I can do it with 20 minutes and 2 metal springs

 

[DarkKnight]

so do nothing and let this happen once a week,great at least we know where you stand

WOW, okay, if that's how you feel that's fine. At least I know where you stand as well. Wanting to take away the rights of Millions of responsible gun owners due to a evil or irresponsible minority.

 

[DarkKnight]

I know about the license tax, this would be additional

and expand the law to include any semi automatic weapon that can be modified into an automatic...you can do that with an AR-15

****, I can do it with 20 minutes and 2 metal springs

I'm sorry, you didn't specify in your first post in which I replied, you simply said automatic, thank you for elaborating. Its also against federal law to do that which I'm sure you are aware of that.

 

[TheCommissioner]

the laws are inadequate, and need to be changed

youre talking to a former gun nut, I was until Columbine, also spent 6 years in the military,Ive seen firsthand what these weapons do to people

 

[TheBat812]

I just think the 2nd amendment is poorly worded. One could argue that the right to bear arms means we should be able to kill bears for their arms. lol

Why the hell didn't they just make it simpler and spell out exactly what we should and shouldn't be able to use?

That is amazing. Thank you for posting that.

 

[DarkKnight]

the laws are inadequate, and need to be changed

youre talking to a former gun nut, I was until Columbine, also spent 6 years in the military,Ive seen firsthand what these weapons do to people

I thank you for your service. I've seen what they can do to, what ANY fire arm can do, it.
I'm not against finding a way to keep firearms away from any criminal or terrorist. But, if there is going to be a real change that will make a real difference it needs to start with the a deeper background check, If this guy was indeed on the FBI watch list as being reported that he was, then why was he even allowed to purchase that firearm? This instance seems to have fallen on the failure of our own government and laws. People need to be held accountable for their actions, imposing a semi-automatic weapons tax I would be against but of course that's just me. Again, to that I'll say this: If the piece of garbage that did this should not represent the intent of the entire Muslim community, Then why should he or a small minority of irresponsible gun owners represent the entire pro-gun community?

 

[samsnee]

It's not just a mentality its a fact. I'm not sure where you are from, or what experience you have with firearms or the availability of firearms and firearms parts. But they are literally everywhere. Its just not as simple as stopping production of high capacity magazines. How does that make all the ones in existence just disappear? it doesn't.

Yes fortunately I live in an area that isn't part of the gun culture like Texas and the south can be. I'm just not comfortable having my kids around them no matter how responsible people are.

That being said, yes you can't take away the millions of guns already out there. But this guy bought his guns legally only a few weeks ago. So if there were better laws in place, or better enforced ones, he wouldn't have gotten one. And if he tried to get one through less than legal methods, maybe that would have raised some red flags.

 

[Unbreakable Lex]

https://***********/ezraklein/status/742422723251572738

Tremendous video on the roots of America's gun violence problem: https://www.facebook.com/ezraklein/videos/10154306540073410/ …

 

[DarkKnight]

Yes fortunately I live in an area that isn't part of the gun culture like Texas and the south can be. I'm just not comfortable having my kids around them no matter how responsible people are.

That being said, yes you can't take away the millions of guns already out there. But this guy bought his guns legally only a few weeks ago. So if there were better laws in place, or better enforced ones, he wouldn't have gotten one. And if he tried to get one through less than legal methods, maybe that would have raised some red flags.

I respect your choice, Yes here in the South not only are the majority of us responsible gun owners we raise our children to know how to safely take care of them, store them, clean them, shoot them etc. Its almost like a right of passage here.
I'm not against a stricter background check, I support it in fact. as I mentioned before I really feel the current law and our federal government dropped the ball on this one if the reports of the shooter was indeed on the FBI watch list or was FBI interviewed during terrorist interest investigations. In my opinion in that case he should never have been able to purchase that firearm. which apparently the report now is that there was two firearms, the rifle and a handgun.

 

[samsnee]

Hindsight is 20/20. They probably didn't have enough credible evidence to contain this guy. And he's one of millions probably. And we are a country of due process. He was born here and an American citizen. At the time, he still had rights.

There is no easy answer to any of this. Not ban all guns or foreigners. Not bomb away the Middle East. Unfortunately it's only the loudest and most extreme voices that hijack the conversation, if we are even allowed to have one.

 

[DarkKnight]

Hindsight is 20/20. They probably didn't have enough credible evidence to contain this guy. And he's one of millions probably. And we are a country of due process. He was born here and an American citizen. At the time, he still had rights.

There is no easy answer to any of this. Not ban all guns or foreigners. Not bomb away the Middle East. Unfortunately it's only the loudest and most extreme voices that hijack the conversation, if we are even allowed to have one.

Agreed, unfortunately evil people exist and if a evil person or crazy person wants to do harm they will do so no matter the means. That is one reason why I do have a Conceal Carry license. If I'm able to protect, myself, my family or you or even a perfect stranger, no matter the race, ethnic, religion, sexual orientation or preference, by me being a first responder and able to stop someone like this, I will indeed lay my life on the line to try and stop it and I can honestly say that is the mindset of most CWP holders.

 

[samsnee]

Agreed, unfortunately evil people exist and if a evil person or crazy person wants to do harm they will do so no matter the means. That is one reason why I do have a Conceal Carry license. If I'm able to protect, myself, my family or you or even a perfect stranger, no matter the race, ethnic, religion, sexual orientation or preference, by me being a first responder and able to stop someone like this, I will indeed lay my life on the line to try and stop it and I can honestly say that is the mindset of most CWP holders.

With all due respect to your good intentions, I think having multiple plain clothes people shooting back and forth only causes even more confusion. What if someone is on the phone with 911 and can't even tell how many active shooters there are?

 

[DeadPresident]

Agreed, unfortunately evil people exist and if a evil person or crazy person wants to do harm they will do so no matter the means. That is one reason why I do have a Conceal Carry license. If I'm able to protect, myself, my family or you or even a perfect stranger, no matter the race, ethnic, religion, sexual orientation or preference, by me being a first responder and able to stop someone like this, I will indeed lay my life on the line to try and stop it and I can honestly say that is the mindset of most CWP holders.

This is absolute horse ****, and it's going to take a couple of mass shooting incidents where bystander-heroes exacerbate the situation for this little hypothesis to be shot out of the water.

 

[DarkKnight]

With all due respect to your good intentions, I think having multiple plain clothes people shooting back and forth only causes even more confusion. What if someone is on the phone with 911 and can't even tell how many active shooters there are?

That comes with training and being very responsible, not everyone that is a CWP holder is a gun slinging cowboy.

 

[DarkKnight]

This is absolute horse ****, and it's going to take a couple of mass shooting incidents where bystander-heroes exacerbate the situation for this little hypothesis to be shot out of the water.

Sorry you feel that way. As it has already happened, CWP carriers have indeed saved lives by stopping several lunatics with guns. So there is no shooting this "hypothesis" out of the water. You may not choose to carry a firearm or deal with the responsibilities that comes with it. But, many people do! That's your right to chose that, just as its my right to carry.

 

[DeadPresident]

Sorry you feel that way. As it has already happened, CWP carriers have indeed saved lives by stopping some lunatics with guns.

Sure. And how many ex-CWP's ended up being lunatics with guns?

Statistically you'll have some cases where it "works out" - allow me to digress for a moment, but how ****ed up is a society where we consider it a success when one armed person was fortunate enough to kill another armed person before that other armed person killed other people - and statistically there'll be cases where it does nothing, and then some more cases where it makes matters worse.

When law enforcement comes onto the scene and mows down a CWP hero instead of the shooter because it's absolute mayhem people might reconsider this highly spurious line of argument.

Fact of the matter is for every responsible, well-intentioned and level-headed gun-owner like yourself there's one unhinged homophobe, one racist white kid, one woman who will get shot by her toddler and 2 kids who were bullied to the point of trying to bomb their school and murder as many of their class mates as they could.

You may not choose to carry a firearm or deal with the responsibilities that comes with it. But, many people do! That's your right to chose that, just as its my right to carry.

I'm not American, and you're likely only spouting this veneer-thin bravado because it's still theoretical.

I'd also be highly inclined to agree with some aspects of your argument if most mass shootings weren't perpetrated by people with automatic weapons. Someone carrying a handgun isn't likely to be of much use, and even if we're going to argue it might stop some deaths, so what? It's still a mass shooting. It's like saying having your hand amputated due to bad medical environment is way better than having your whole arm amputated - yeah, but it'd probably be better just to prevent the whole problem.

 

[DarkKnight]

Sure. And how many ex-CWP's ended up being lunatics with guns?

Statistically you'll have some cases where it "works out" - allow me to digress for a moment, but how ****ed up is a society where we consider it a success when one armed person was fortunate enough to kill another armed person before that other armed person killed other people - and statistically there'll be cases where it does nothing, and then some more cases where it makes matters worse.

It is a Sad way to look at things. But in the world we live in today, I firmly believe that if ANY innocent lives saved by killing the "bad guy" is indeed a big win.

When law enforcement comes onto the scene and mows down a CWP hero instead of the shooter because it's absolute mayhem people might reconsider this highly spurious line of argument.

Are you a CWP holder? do you Know any CWP holders? I don't mean that as an insult, but These very scenario's are discussed in class and during training.

Fact of the matter is for every responsible, well-intentioned and level-headed gun-owner like yourself there's one unhinged homophobe, one racist white kid, one woman who will get shot by her toddler and 2 kids who were bullied to the point of trying to bomb their school and murder as many of their class mates as they could.

I agree with you. And it is very unfortunate, but where do you draw the line? for every responsible drinker that finds a designated driver there are a few that choose to drive drunk and unfortunately a lot of times that ends in lost lives as well. For most people that enjoy a evening date with a lovely lady end with a kiss and all is well, but with a few it ends in rape. The thing is, no matter the topic, there are CRAZY & IRRESPONSIBLE people in this world. Its sad, its scary, but its true.

I'm not American, and you're likely only spouting this veneer-thin bravado because it's still theoretical.

Again, CWP holders have successfully stopped some horrible acts before. Unfortunately the media only shows the horrible things, it rarely to never shows when a "hero" was successful and just to add to that the CWP "hero" dosent always win by having to kill the "bad guy" many have been held at gun point until the police have arrived.

And to add to your last point, if you were familiar with any formal training a handgun is all you need and can be very successful at stopping a maniac with any type of firearm.

 

[Donner]

Yeah, but what are the requirements in terms of training for people to be allowed to carry a firearm?

Switzerland has a lot of guns, too. But the people are very well trained in how to use them because it's a requirement. In the US, they'll give any idiot a gun, with no formal training. How is that even allowed?

 

[Handsome Rob]

Sure. And how many ex-CWP's ended up being lunatics with guns?

Statistically you'll have some cases where it "works out" - allow me to digress for a moment, but how ****ed up is a society where we consider it a success when one armed person was fortunate enough to kill another armed person before that other armed person killed other people - and statistically there'll be cases where it does nothing, and then some more cases where it makes matters worse.

When law enforcement comes onto the scene and mows down a CWP hero instead of the shooter because it's absolute mayhem people might reconsider this highly spurious line of argument.

Fact of the matter is for every responsible, well-intentioned and level-headed gun-owner like yourself there's one unhinged homophobe, one racist white kid, one woman who will get shot by her toddler and 2 kids who were bullied to the point of trying to bomb their school and murder as many of their class mates as they could.



I'm not American, and you're likely only spouting this veneer-thin bravado because it's still theoretical.

I'd also be highly inclined to agree with some aspects of your argument if most mass shootings weren't perpetrated by people with automatic weapons. Someone carrying a handgun isn't likely to be of much use, and even if we're going to argue it might stop some deaths, so what? It's still a mass shooting. It's like saying having your hand amputated due to bad medical environment is way better than having your whole arm amputated - yeah, but it'd probably be better just to prevent the whole problem.

Can you provide a source for that?

 

[summerteeth]

Here's what I don't understand about those who want to pass greater gun restrictions. I personally a. don't like guns b. own guns but I don't see that the answer is to pass huge gun laws restricting access to guns.

1. What do you do with the guns already out in circulation? Let's say you make semi-automatics illegal how are you going to round up all these guns and how are people going to react if the answer is to send law enforcement out to collect these guns?

2. Why would a ban on certain types of guns be more efficient than a ban on certain types of drugs? Drugs are consumed and then have to be repurchased while I already mentioned that guns are already in circulation which makes it seem like this would be an even more difficult task than the War on Drugs.

3. Most of the mass shootings we see in data are gang related (We just see the non-gang related ones on the news). There have been 3 non-gang related mass shootings this year. 133 gang related mass shootings. If most of the mass shootings are gang related, I highly doubt they are going to follow the new laws or that it would restrict their access to guns. All it would do is create a larger black market for guns that would help more money flow to gangs.

 

[The Overlord]

That comes with training and being very responsible, not everyone that is a CWP holder is a gun slinging cowboy.

But that only works if you are hyper vigilant 24/7, we have people getting killed in clubs and movie theatres, if I am dancing in a club or watching a movie, it could be easy if someone has the intent to shoot to succeed, even if I had a gun, people are not going to these places expecting a shoot out and are distract by the purpose of these entertainment venues. Just giving everyone guns doesn't solve the mass shooting problem.

Besides what if there are people with concealed weapons who don't know what they are doing on the scene this good guy with a gun idea is horribly naive.

Also answer me this, why do other Western countries have far less mass shootings then the US?