The Guns thread

[DJ_KiDDvIcIOUs]

I guess that depends on what who's definition of "mass shooting" you want to use. If you go by the FBI's definition, then the relatively few "mass shootings" they list are done by criminals. But if you go by the Washington Post or any other groups who track them, then a lot of gang shootings and past criminals are included.

I do. The Federal Government defines a mass shooting as more than 3 people shot. That's the legal definition. Like I said before most are done by criminals or those involved in criminal activity i.e. in gangs.

This is cop-out BS, gang violence is a completely different animal (while just as tragic for numerous reasons), you both are trying to obfuscate the issue at hand which is when "law-abiding" citizens buy legal guns and then walk into a crowd of innocent people and start shooting.

Does gang violence affect innocent people? You bet your ass it does. Common sense gun laws will help negate both types but it will obviously skew more towards these "law-abiding" psychos.

I've stated numerous times I am in now way advocating taking everyone's guns away but common sense things can be done, most of which has been mentioned not only in this thread but every damn time one of these things happen and 99.9% of everyone agrees they should happen yet the NRA comes in and squelches it.

 

[KevanG]

Does south america and canada have these issues? I honestly have no idea

Well for comparison in 2012 Canada had 172 firearm related homicides and the US had 8,812. For a gun per person ration Canada has about 7 million firearms for about 40 million people and the US has 300 million firearms for 319 million people.

We also have pretty good gun control laws, not perfect, but pretty good. We distinctly prohibit military grade weapons and sawn off shotgun/rifles. To get a gun you need to get a safety course, licensing, mandatory background/criminal history checks, personal references and a waiting period.

http://www.nationalobserver.com/2015/12/04/news/how-american-gun-deaths-and-gun-laws-compare-canadas

We've had shootings, including one in my town two years ago that killed three RCMP officers but I think we've had about ten in the past 25 years.

No idea about South America though.

 

[Matt Mortem]

We need to properly license and regulate all guns and gun owners. We do it for cars and we damn sure should do it for guns. The only purpose a gun serves is to end life, be it human or animal. Of course tools of death should be heavily regulated.

 

[Webfoot Hero]

This is cop-out BS, gang violence is a completely different animal (while just as tragic for numerous reasons), you both are trying to obfuscate the issue at hand which is when "law-abiding" citizens buy legal guns and then walk into a crowd of innocent people and start shooting.

Does gang violence affect innocent people? You bet your ass it does. Common sense gun laws will help negate both types but it will obviously skew more towards these "law-abiding" psychos.

I've stated numerous times I am in now way advocating taking everyone's guns away but common sense things can be done, most of which has been mentioned not only in this thread but every damn time one of these things happen and 99.9% of everyone agrees they should happen yet the NRA comes in and squelches it.

Considering the stats don't break down like that, it's hard to know but based on how many mass shootings there really are that rise to the scope of being a national story, there actually aren't very many. Based on what's reported and shown on the news, the vast majority of "mass shootings" are done by criminals/gang members and people killing their families and people they know.

 

[BatLobster]

I truly truly cannot understand the argument for, at the very least, much much stricter rules and more rigorous, thorough background checks specifically for assault weapons.

I think everyone is being pretty clear on this. The vast majority of people right now are not crying for a ban on all guns. But there is absolutely no reason a 29 year old guy with red flags all over his record should be able to walk into a store and buy an AR-15 over the counter with no problem. That's before even getting to the discussion of whether they should be on the mainstream market in the first place....just, the system we have in place is clearly not working.

Something needs to be done. Something needs to be done about gun control just as much as something needs to be done about ISIS. We've got a rising lone wolf problem before even adding ISIS-inspired killers to the equation.

I really don't understand how anyone can argue otherwise. Again...let's start with focusing our attention on assault weapons.

I honestly believed that after Sandy Hook happened and nothing changed, that there would never be a change on this issue.

But the reaction to this latest bloodbath makes me cautiously optimistic.

The usual NRA insensitivity and disingenuous Republican calls for prayer and talk of how it's a mental health issue seem to have been met with unusual anger from the sane people in this country.

I agree, I was really disheartened after Sandy Hook but at the same time, I think something about this one is a little different. People are tired of the whole charade that happens after each and every one of these shootings, and now real, palpable anger is starting to kick in. As it should.

 

[Webfoot Hero]

Based on overall homicide, not only firearm homicide, statistics from the UN, here are the highest murder rates (murders per 100,000) for countries in the Americas and the Caribbean. You have to get to #95 before you find the US.

1. Honduras: 84.6
2. El Salvador: 64.2
3. Venezuela: 62.0
6. Jamaica: 36.1
7. Belize: 34.4
8. St. Kitts and Nevis: 33.6
10. Guatemala: 31.2
11. Bahamas: 29.8
12. Colombia: 27.9
13. Trinidad and Tobago: 25.9
14. Saint Vincent and the Grenadines: 25.6
15. Brazil: 24.6
16. Saint Lucia: 21.6
17. Dominica: 21.1
22: Dominican Republic: 17.4
24: Panama: 17.2
25. Guyana: 17.0
27. Mexico: 15.7
37: Bolivia: 12.1
40. Nicaragua: 11.3
42: Antigua and Barbuda: 11.2
49: Haiti: 10.2
50. Costa Rica: 10.0
58. Barbados: 8.8
59. Paraguay: 8.8
62. Ecuador: 8.2
74. Argentina: 7.6
77. Grenada: 7.5
81. Peru: 6.7
88. Suriname: 6.1
95: United States: 4.9
107. Canda: 1.4

 

[The Overlord]

I do. The Federal Government defines a mass shooting as more than 3 people shot. That's the legal definition. Like I said before most are done by criminals or those involved in criminal activity i.e. in gangs.

I think after this incident in think people are concerned with mass shootings of civilians rather then shooting incidents that involve gangs.

Just saying most shooting incidents involve gangs doesn't solve the problem of people intentionally shooting in a public place. Gang violence is bad, but these incidents are worse because they involve the direct targeting of civilians, I never heard of a gang members killing 50 civilians or mowing down children at a school.

And talking about college students smoking pot doesn't solve this problem either and is not comparable, because I never heard of a college student smoking pot and then killing 50 people.

And again in terms of both gang violence and mass shootings of civilians, there are far fewer incidents of gun violence in Canada then the US. Why is that?

You really are not providing any real solutions to these problems and neither is the rest of the right wing I the US. A political ideology that refuses to solve real pressing problems people face, is not a very useful or helpful ideology.

 

[Webfoot Hero]

I truly truly cannot understand the argument for, at the very least, much much stricter rules and more rigorous, thorough background checks specifically for assault weapons.

I think everyone is being pretty clear on this. The vast majority of people right now are not crying for a ban on all guns. But there is absolutely no reason a 29 year old guy with red flags all over his record should be able to walk into a store and buy an AR-15 over the counter with no problem. That's before even getting to the discussion of whether they should be on the mainstream market in the first place....just, the system we have in place is clearly not working.

Something needs to be done. Something needs to be done about gun control just as much as something needs to be done about ISIS. We've got a rising lone wolf problem before even adding ISIS-inspired killers to the equation.

I really don't understand how anyone can argue otherwise. Again...let's start with focusing our attention on assault weapons.

Except, he really didn't have any red flags that would have popped up in the background check system because he was never charged with any crime (although he could have been if his domestic violence issues had been brought to the authorities attention), was not on any terror watchlists (FBI didn't have enough evidence to prove he was a radical or terrorist sympathizer), and had no mental illness holds. All the red flags are coming from those who knew or had interacted with him over the years but never spoke up enough to get the attention of the authorities. The one co-worker who did report him said the company didn't respond to his accusations because they didn't have evidence and/or didn't want to look Islamophobic.

 

[The Overlord]

Based on overall homicide, not only firearm homicide, statistics from the UN, here are the highest murder rates (murders per 100,000) for countries in the Americas and the Caribbean. You have to get to #95 before you find the US.

1. Honduras: 84.6
2. El Salvador: 64.2
3. Venezuela: 62.0
6. Jamaica: 36.1
7. Belize: 34.4
8. St. Kitts and Nevis: 33.6
10. Guatemala: 31.2
11. Bahamas: 29.8
12. Colombia: 27.9
13. Trinidad and Tobago: 25.9
14. Saint Vincent and the Grenadines: 25.6
15. Brazil: 24.6
16. Saint Lucia: 21.6
17. Dominica: 21.1
22: Dominican Republic: 17.4
24: Panama: 17.2
25. Guyana: 17.0
27. Mexico: 15.7
37: Bolivia: 12.1
40. Nicaragua: 11.3
42: Antigua and Barbuda: 11.2
49: Haiti: 10.2
50. Costa Rica: 10.0
58. Barbados: 8.8
59. Paraguay: 8.8
62. Ecuador: 8.2
74. Argentina: 7.6
77. Grenada: 7.5
81. Peru: 6.7
88. Suriname: 6.1
95: United States: 4.9
107. Canda: 1.4

You are kinda missing the European countries and many Asian countries, aren't you?

Why are you not comparing the US to other wealthy first world countries? How does the US compare to Germany, France, Japan, etc? I will tell you how the US fares in comparison, poorly. Japan in particular had almost no gun violence. You seem to be setting the bar pretty low for the US and thus inviting inaction, by comparing the US to countries with several internal problems, rather then other first world countries.

 

[Webfoot Hero]

I think after this incident in think people are concerned with mass shootings of civilians rather then shooting incidents that involve gangs.

Just saying most shooting incidents involve gangs doesn't solve the problem of people intentionally shooting in a public place. Gang violence is bad, but these incidents are worse because they involve the direct targeting of civilians, I never heard of a gang members killing 50 civilians or mowing down children at a school.

And talking about college students smoking pot doesn't solve this problem either and is not comparable, because I never heard of a college student smoking pot and then killing 50 people.

And again in terms of both gang violence and mass shootings of civilians, there are far fewer incidents of gun violence in Canada then the US. Why is that?

You really are not providing any real solutions to these problems and neither is the rest of the right wing I the US. A political ideology that refuses to solve real pressing problems people face, is not a very useful or helpful ideology.

And I could say the solutions coming out of the left aren't exactly helpful either because it's basically tramping on the rights of millions due to only a few thousand criminals and nutjobs.

 

[Webfoot Hero]

You are kinda missing the European countries and many Asian countries, aren't you?

Why are you not comparing the US to other wealthy first world countries? How does the US compare to Germany, France, Japan, etc? I will tell you how the US fares in comparison, poorly. Japan in particular had almost no gun violence. You seem to be setting the bar pretty low for the US and thus inviting inaction, by comparing the US to countries with several internal problems, rather then other first world countries.

Someone asked for crime rates in the Western Hemisphere and those are the numbers I gave.

 

[The Overlord]

And I could say the solutions coming out of the left aren't exactly helpful either because it's basically tramping on the rights of millions due to only a few thousand criminals and nutjobs.

They right wing concept of gun rights comes off as selfish and counter productive, rather something productive and thoughtful. Yes I think stopping civilian mass shootings is more important then some guy who thinks it's fun to shoot assault rifles at the range. In Canada we see guns as tools and in the US they are often treated as holy objects by the right wing, it's an unhealthy relationship with guns rather then a productive one. Too many Republican s have an expression of gun rights that have no consideration for the lives of others, its hard to sympathize with that.

You had Joe the Plumber saying his gun rights trumps the dead children of Sandy Hook, how is that not selfish and destructive expression of rights?

What are the right wing solutions to these civilian mass shootings? If you don't have one, you are not contributing anything of value to this debate.

Someone asked for crime rates in the Western Hemisphere and those are the numbers I gave.

Comparing the US to these countries with fundamental internal problems in terms of gun violence is akin to comparing the US track record in terms of gay rights to Saudi Arabia, it sets the bar so low its meaningless.

The US is supposed to be a first world country, why would we not compare it to other first world countries. Plus isn't the US supposed to be the greatest country in the world? If so, why do so many other first world countries have far less gun violence then others?

Look at 2014 terrorist attack in Ottawa, the terrorist manged to kill one soldier and was then stopped, because the gun he was using couldn't shoot 50 rounds per minute, in the US he could have bought a far more lethal gun and killed far more people in the process, the fact that Canadians don't have the same gun access as the US likely saved many lives that day.

 

[Webfoot Hero]

They right wing concept of gun rights comes off as selfish and counter productive, rather something productive and thoughtful. Yes I think stopping civilian mass shootings is more important then some guy who thinks it's fun to shoot assault rifles at the range. In Canada we see guns as tools and in the US they are often treated as holy objects by the right wing, it's an unhealthy relationship with guns rather then a productive one.

You had Joe the Plumber saying his gun rights trumps the dead children of Sandy Hook, how is that not selfish and destructive expression of rights?

What are the right wing solutions to these civilian mass shootings? If you don't have one, you are not contributing anything of value to this debate.

I could just as easily say that you're a Canadian talking about a US problem, what value are you actually bringing to the issue? I won't but don't take my lack of a lot of concrete suggestions as inaction or being uncaring. Just because I don't think some of overly drastic measures some are suggesting are good answers doesn't mean there aren't some things within the current background check system that could be strengthened

 

[BatLobster]

Except, he really didn't have any red flags that would have popped up in the background check system because he was never charged with any crime (although he could have been if his domestic violence issues had been brought to the authorities attention), was not on any terror watchlists (FBI didn't have enough evidence to prove he was a radical or terrorist sympathizer), and had no mental illness holds. All the red flags are coming from those who knew or had interacted with him over the years but never spoke up enough to get the attention of the authorities. The one co-worker who did report him said the company didn't respond to his accusations because they didn't have evidence and/or didn't want to look Islamophobic.

He had been on an FBI watch-list for suspected terror links. Sure, they dropped him from the list, but surely anyone who's even had that on their record deserves a closer look before we just hand them a military-grade weapon with no questions asked.

I'm sorry, but this is a major crack in our system.

My personal opinion is that, IF we must continue making assault weapons available (I don't think they should be, but that's another story) you should only qualify to buy one after 10 years or so of being a registered, responsible gun owner. At the very least it should be a privilege reserved for those that have thoroughly proven themselves over time to be highly responsible, psychologically stable citizens with the cleanest of clean records. And there should still be another thorough round of vetting, including psychological testing when they apply to buy one, no matter what.

To use a forum appropriate quote, "With great power comes great responsibility." We shouldn't just be "hoping for the best" with the responsibility end of gun ownership. We can do better. If someone wants to wield the 'great power' that comes with a weapon that can end dozens of lives in seconds, it why shouldn't we be doing more to be sure of who we're granting that power to?

I have friends that are gun enthusiasts. They just love to shoot, and it's a passion/hobby. They're extremely responsible gun owners. But I'm sorry, there's no reason for any of them to have an assault weapon. It does not fit into the self-defense argument in any way. The only real argument for it is, "I like to shoot." Great. Go to a shooting range if you really are that passionate about firing a semi-automatic weapon. Or join the army, or become a cop.

I can imagine, if I had a hobby I was passionate about and I wasn't hurting anyone doing it and there was an outcry to take that hobby away from me, yeah I'd be pissed. But then again, none of my hobbies include me using tools designed for mass killing, so I don't feel that bad about it really.

 

[The Overlord]

And you're a Candadian talking about a US problem, so what value are you actually bringing to the issue?

Actually I am half American and have family in America, so yeah, it is my business and frankly if your only counter argument it is "non Americans can't comment it, because its none of their business" you are playing a smoke and mirrors trick rather then actually addressing my points. Is being half American not American enough to address this issue?

 

[summerteeth]

I think after this incident in think people are concerned with mass shootings of civilians rather then shooting incidents that involve gangs.

The issue is that shootings that involve gangs do involve people not involved in gangs being shot. How many stories have we heard about kids getting gunned down from a stray bullet or drive-by.

 

[The Overlord]

The issue is that shootings that involve gangs do involve people not involved in gangs being shot. How many stories have we heard about kids getting gunned down from a stray bullet or drive-by.

Name me a gang shooting that intentionally killed 50 people or killed as many children as Sandy Hook did. If can't you name any, then we are talking about 2 different things and one is rarer, but more actively destructive then the other.

I also think intentions matter, that is
why murder is considered worse then manslaughter.

If you have no solutions to these civilian mass shootings, then just say you don't have any, hiding behind semantics never helps an argument.

Also how do you explain the fact that Canada less far mass shootings of any sort then the US? That is just Canada and the gulf gets wider when comparing the US to Japan, where gun violence is non existent.

Frankly gun culture in the US has a destructive element to it, this is why Joe the Plumber says his gun rights trumps dead children or having a gun advocate like Jamie Gilt get shot by her 4 year old son, too many in the gun rights movement have a selfish or cavalier attitude towards guns, all about rights and not enough about responsibility or care for others. Ted Cruz using a gun to heat up bacon is a symbol of this, it's treating a powerful tool like it's a toy. If the gun rights movement wants to be seen as something respectable by more people it has to look at itself and address it's own flaws.

 

[Thundercrack85]

The ironic thing is I don't know anyone in real life, even my very conservative friends who don't agree that there should be more gun control of some kind. Even if it's something as simple as a database for criminals.

The NRA truly is a remarkable organization.

 

[summerteeth]

Name me a gang shooting that intentionally killed 50 people or killed as many children as Sandy Hook did. If can't name any, then we are talking about 2 different things and one is rarer, but more actively destructive then the other.

I also think intentions matter, that is
why murder is considered worse then manslaughter.

If you have no solutions to these civilian mass shootings, then just say you don't have any, hiding behind semantics never helps an argument.

Also how do you explain the fact that Canada less far mass shootings of any sort then the US? That is just Canada and the gulf gets wider when comparing the US to Japan, where gun violence is non existent.

Frankly gun culture in the US has a destructive element to it, this is why Joe the Plumber says his gun rights trumps dead children or having a gun advocate like Jamie Gilt get shot by her 4 year old son, too many in the gun rights movement have a selfish or cavalier attitude towards guns, all about rights and not enough about responsibility or care for others. Ted Cruz using a gun to heat up bacon is a symbol of this, it's treating a powerful tool like it's a toy. If the gun rights movement wants to be seen as something respectable by more people it has to look at itself and address it's own flaws.

Well if you add them all up they would outnumber the casualties of indiscriminate mass shootings. I'm not hiding behind semantics. I do agree with Obama on restricting access for those on the no fly list, I also think we need to improve how we treat the mentally ill to prevent some of these. I just don't think banning certain type of guns will help. Like I said I'm concerned about it creating a larger black market for certain types of guns which would only help gangs. Which seems counter intuitive considering most of the mass shootings are caused by gangs.

It just seems like people care more about these indiscriminate mass shootings because they feel they could become a victim. While the gang mass shootings mostly impact people in low socio-economic neighborhoods. That and the news covers it like crazy.

 

[Matt Mortem]

Bill O'Reilly and Gretchen Carlson just came out in favor of an assault weapons ban. If those GOP mouth pieces are for banning assault weapons then maybe we could see some real change happen.

 

[Thundercrack85]

Bill O'Reilly and Gretchen Carlson just came out in favor of an assault weapons ban. If those GOP mouth pieces are for banning assault weapons then maybe we could see some real change happen.

This just in, Fox News has terminated both Bill O'Reilly and Gretchen Carlson.

 

[The Overlord]

Well if you add them all up they would outnumber the casualties of indiscriminate mass shootings. I'm not hiding behind semantics. I do agree with Obama on restricting access for those on the no fly list, I also think we need to improve how we treat the mentally ill to prevent some of these. I just don't think banning certain type of guns will help. Like I said I'm concerned about it creating a larger black market for certain types of guns which would only help gangs. Which seems counter intuitive considering most of the mass shootings are caused by gangs.

It just seems like people care more about these indiscriminate mass shootings because they feel they could become a victim. While the gang mass shootings mostly impact people in low socio-economic neighborhoods.

That is rather poor excuse for inaction around these civilian mass shootings and I do think banning assault riffles will save more lives in the long run. The black market will never have the same reach as the current gun industry and frankly the fewer deranged gun owners the better.

The black church that was shot up by a white racist some months ago has a even greater impact on the black community then any form of gang violence could, because it's intentional and it's hitting people were they are supposed to be safe. Has any gang members ever just decided to shoot up a Church and kill children there intentionally? Gang members likely have more standards then the psychopaths who seem to desire to kill as many civilians as possible.

These are two different types of problems, but taking action against one doesn't exclude taking action against the other.

There are gangs in Canada, why is there not the same level of gun violence in Canada as there is in the US? Look at the Ottawa terrorist attack, the terrorist only managed to kill one person, how many would he have killed with a more powerful weapon?

 

[summerteeth]

That is rather poor excuse for inaction around these civilian mass shootings and I do think banning assault riffles will save more lives in the long run. The black market will never have the same reach as the current gun industry and frankly the fewer deranged gun owners the better.

The black church that was shot up by a white racist some months ago has a even greater impact on the black community then any form of gang violence could, because it's intentional and it's hitting people were they are supposed to be safe. Has any gang members ever just decided to shoot up a Church and kill children there intentionally? Gang members likely have more standards then the psychopaths who seem to desire to kill as many civilians as possible.

These are two different types of problems, but taking action against one doesn't exclude taking action against the other.

There are gangs in Canada, why is there not the same level of gun violence in Canada as there is in the US? Look at the Ottawa terrorist attack, the terrorist only managed to kill one person, how many would he have killed with a more powerful weapon?

a. I'm not making excuses, I'm just disagreeing with the solution of banning certain types of guns that are already in wide circulation. It seems like the indiscriminate killings can be targeted through legislation regarding the mentally ill and Islamic extremists since those are most likely the perps of these shootings.

b. intentional or unintentional it's a lost life and kids die. People die in their homes, walking down their street etc from these types of shootings. Again, it's actually probably a bigger issue. I'm concerned that taking certain types of action against one might exacerbate the other. Black markets benefit gangs and organized crime and you would be creating one. Just like prohibition led to the mob and the current drug war led to all the street gangs we have today.

 

[Webfoot Hero]

The ironic thing is I don't know anyone in real life, even my very conservative friends who don't agree that there should be more gun control of some kind. Even if it's something as simple as a database for criminals.

The NRA truly is a remarkable organization.

What do you think the NICS system is checking when doing a background check? It's checking 3 different criminal databases: the National Crime Information Center, the Interstate Identification Index, and the NICS Index. If someone who has a felony on their record but it isn't found by the NICS system (happens very rarely but it does happen), then most likely it wasn't entered in properly or has been processed yet. The main thing the system is missing is an accurate index for confirmed or potentially mentally ill people with violent tendencies who've been institutionalized, are currently undergoing treatment, and/or on medications. Since the mental illness aspect is a very tricky aspect to diagnose and then categorize people into, there needs to be a way for mental health doctors to be involved in the process.

 

[Webfoot Hero]

Name me a gang shooting that intentionally killed 50 people or killed as many children as Sandy Hook did. If can't you name any, then we are talking about 2 different things and one is rarer, but more actively destructive then the other.

I also think intentions matter, that is
why murder is considered worse then manslaughter.

If you have no solutions to these civilian mass shootings, then just say you don't have any, hiding behind semantics never helps an argument.

Also how do you explain the fact that Canada less far mass shootings of any sort then the US? That is just Canada and the gulf gets wider when comparing the US to Japan, where gun violence is non existent.

Frankly gun culture in the US has a destructive element to it, this is why Joe the Plumber says his gun rights trumps dead children or having a gun advocate like Jamie Gilt get shot by her 4 year old son, too many in the gun rights movement have a selfish or cavalier attitude towards guns, all about rights and not enough about responsibility or care for others. Ted Cruz using a gun to heat up bacon is a symbol of this, it's treating a powerful tool like it's a toy. If the gun rights movement wants to be seen as something respectable by more people it has to look at itself and address it's own flaws.

So the fact that many people every weekend get killed and wounded in Chicago (even with strict gun control laws) isn't enough to show you that gang shootings have their fair share of victims? We can't help it that the media, for the most part, focuses heavily on the mass-killing incidents but doesn't seem to report on the city-wide homicide waves that occur in many major US cities a couple victims at a time.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/10/08/america-s-mass-shooting-capital-is-chicago.html