State of Virginia considering bill to allow students to carry guns

[Tron5000]

Then you should get rid of guns altogether, thereby putting everyone on the same playing field.

Or, you can accept that every so often, some idiot gets tons of guns and ammo because the local gun dealer thinks everyone should own a gun and therefore doesn't do extensive background checks... like the dealer who sold the guns to VT shooter... who also sold the guns to the NIU shooter...

Personally, I accept the fact that this doesn't happen so often, and think that's what everyone else should start to realize. My only suggestions are to find a way to make getting a gun far more difficult, or accept that these things are a rarity... not put guns in the hands of every single college student, as if to say it will prevent violence when you're giving people the means to commit violence.

How do you propose that you "get rid of guns altogether"? While law-abiding citizens may turn theirs in, what would make a criminal dispose of their gun? In a perfect world, no guns would exist and none would be needed. But while mankind seeks to harm others, there will always be, and will always be a need for, guns.

 

[Warhammer]

I don't want this to happen. I live in Virginia, too. Carry a gun in your car, or at your house. I think this is overkill, actually. So what if shootings are happening? It isn't happening every day or week.

 

[DarknessOfDeath]

No one is giving the whole world guns. People are allowed to own guns. The debate is over in which public places people are allowed to carry their guns legally.

I own guns. I don't hunt. I own guns for a single purpose: so that if someone ever breaks into my house, and tries to harm me, my girlfriend, or anyone who may be in my house, I can hopefully prevent that from happening. I am not willing to simply allow myself to be killed because someone decides that they want my big-screen.

The idea that people who own guns just go around shooting each other is, simply, ludicrous.

no no...I mean like as in a what if so to speak. Sure I'd like to own a gun but who would be stupid enough to bring a gun to school, get caught, then get suspended and maybe get some down time in jail is beyond stupid.

Though, makes me think of the babies in day care...

should babies be allowed to carry baby guns?

 

[Tron5000]

no no...I mean like as in a what if so to speak. Sure I'd like to own a gun but who would be stupid enough to bring a gun to school, get caught, then get suspended and maybe get some down time in jail is beyond stupid.

Though, makes me think of the babies in day care...

should babies be allowed to carry baby guns?

I sincerely hope that last question was not a serious attempt at defending your position.

 

[The Senator]

How do you propose that you "get rid of guns altogether"? While law-abiding citizens may turn theirs in, what would make a criminal dispose of their gun? In a perfect world, no guns would exist and none would be needed. But while mankind seeks to harm others, there will always be, and will always be a need for, guns.

I didn't say get rid of all the guns. I said that's the only logical way to get rid of all the violence-- as far-fetched an idea as that may be, that is the only true way to ensure that gun violence will never happen.

 

[The Senator]

The idea that people who own guns just go around shooting each other is, simply, ludicrous.

It is a ludicrous idea, and in most cases it isn't true. But if you let kids who are filled with angst and under pressure on a day to day basis carry guns to the classes that they hate, near the people that they hate... chances are, if one day that kid feels like getting what's due to him... he won't hesitate to pull the trigger if he's so provoked. That's why I'm not a fan of the idea, because while it may be a deterrent, it certainly doesn't guarantee that these shootings will end, and it even adds a medium by which gun violence can occur unchecked.

 

[Memphis Slim]

Would you be more likely to attack someone you knew was unarmed or someone you knew was packin' heat?


See...I think these nuts would think twice if that had even a small chance of gettin' whacked themselves. As it stands right now, they know no one has a gun except them. They see the students as sheep and themselves as wolves.

Turn the sheep into wolves and watch the other wolf re-think some things.

 

[The Evolutionist]

The goal is to get guns away from schools, not in them.

 

[Tron5000]

I didn't say get rid of all the guns. I said that's the only logical way to get rid of all the violence-- as far-fetched an idea as that may be, that is the only true way to ensure that gun violence will never happen.

Obviously, in a utopian world, that would be ideal. But I simply feel that as long as there are those who are willing to use guns to harm other people, it is creates a completely uneven playing field by not allowing others to defend themselves in those situations.

 

[Tron5000]

It is a ludicrous idea, and in most cases it isn't true. But if you let kids who are filled with angst and under pressure on a day to day basis carry guns to the classes that they hate, near the people that they hate... chances are, if one day that kid feels like getting what's due to him... he won't hesitate to pull the trigger if he's so provoked. That's why I'm not a fan of the idea, because while it may be a deterrent, it certainly doesn't guarantee that these shootings will end, and it even adds a medium by which gun violence can occur unchecked.

Nothing will guarantee that these shootings end. People will always use violence against other people. But think about this: if every kid in the class had a gun, do you think that one crazy kid would actually pull his? And if he did, how far do you think it would get?

 

[Tron5000]

Would you be more likely to attack someone you knew was unarmed or someone you knew was packin' heat?


See...I think these nuts would think twice if that had even a small chance of gettin' whacked themselves. As it stands right now, they know no one has a gun except them. They see the students as sheep and themselves as wolves.

Turn the sheep into wolves and watch the other wolf re-think some things.

Nice analogy. Well said, my friend.

 

[DarknessOfDeath]

I sincerely hope that last question was not a serious attempt at defending your position.

No... but look, Im just saying.

we don't need anymore blood shed...

yeah yeah, people die every day. So? There has to be something to prevent this from happening all the time.

Theres too many sick people in this world that makes me wonder how do these people get by with what they do, thinking they can get away with it is just pure bad and not exactly normal.

But hey, there can be worse things out there now...just we're not looking in the right places.

 

[spideyboy_1111]

this is beyond retarted

 

[DarknessOfDeath]

this is beyond retarted

^^
come again

 

[Tron5000]

this is beyond retarted

You misspelled "******ed." Oh, the sweet irony...

 

[spideyboy_1111]

******ed that better?

 

[Captain Planet!]

In response to the increasing number of school shootings in recent years, as well as a lockdown at a Virginia college last week (and likely the Virginia Tech shootings last year) the Virginia General Assembly is considering a bill that would allow students aged 21 or old to possess and carry weapons on campus, provided they have a valid concealed-carry permit.

http://www.wtopnews.com/index.php?nid=600&sid=1355701

Members of Students for Concealed Carry on Campus will join two General Assembly legislators Monday for a news conference.Delegate Robert G. Marshall, R-Manassas, and Delegate C. Todd Gilbert, R-Woodstock, have introduced bills that would allow faculty, staff and students to carry concealed handguns on college campuses with a valid Virginia concealed-carry permit.

House Bill 424, sponsored by Marshall, and House Bill 1371, sponsored by Gilbert, were left in committee and killed during the 2008 session.

“In the wake of further shootings around the country and the lockdown at Ferrum College here in Virginia, this legislation needs to be considered by the full House,” Marshall stated in an e-mail.

The news conference will be held in the wake of a campus lockdown this past Tuesday at Ferrum College, a private school located in Southwest Virginia. A housekeeper at the college reported seeing a man with a handgun in a dormitory. Authorities say they suspect the man intended to cause harm.

“Several professors have come to me asking to give them the tools to protect their students,” Marshall stated. “Potential killers need to know that Virginia’s colleges and universities are not ‘gun free zones’ where no one will be able to stop them from killing as many people as they can.”

According to the SCCC Web site the group boasts a membership of more than 19,000 college students, faculty members, parents and concerned citizens nationwide who seek change at the individual state policy rather than the federal legislation.

“The first step is to see ‘colleges’ removed from the lists of places listed as ‘off limits’ by the concealed carry laws in many states,” the site says.

“The next step is to see other states follow Utah's lead in prohibiting state colleges from enacting their own bans on concealed carry.”




...further articles can be found by typing "students concealed carry" in Google News and sorting by date.

Are the people that came up with this idea ******s?

 

[DarknessOfDeath]

Well it was nice discussing this topic with ya all, just thought i'd speak my mind too so...talk to ya all later.

 

[Tron5000]

Are the people that came up with this idea ******s?

So I assume you're not in favor of this bill...

 

[The Senator]

Nothing will guarantee that these shootings end. People will always use violence against other people. But think about this: if every kid in the class had a gun, do you think that one crazy kid would actually pull his? And if he did, how far do you think it would get?

I think if that crazy kid is psychologically ill, yes, he will pull the trigger regardless of how many people are carrying guns.

As for how far he'd get... I can't tell you. But Like I said earlier, you have to assume that everyone in that classroom is able to act rationally. You have to assume that a student will be able to tell the shooter from another kid who pulled a gun out to stop that shooter. You have the potential to create a far worse situation on top of an already bad situation. Also, you have to assume that every student will carry a gun to class. Even if this law is passed, you probably won't see a lot of students carrying guns to campus. That may refute a lot of my argument against the gun bill... but if you think about it, the people who would be willing to carry guns on campus to begin with are gun nuts, some of which purely want a gun so they can play hero...

If this was a perfect situation, the shooter would fire, and a classmate nearby would stop him. But I doubt this will ever be a perfect situation. The shooter will fire, and three kids will pop up their guns... unaware of who the original shooter was, or confused by all the weapons in site... and someone who is "innocent" will end up shot instead. That will give the shooter time to react, if he has the ability to, and more people could end up dead.

The other thing I haven't mentioned is that students who want to kill their fellow students will find creative ways around the gun law. Like going into residence halls in the middle of the night and figuring out a way to kill students in their sleep... because 70% of students don't lock their doors at night... and residence hall security almost always sucks. Or they'll go to a social event, such as a basketball game, where there is a bigger crowd and you won't be able to tell who the shooter is right away. They'll find ways around this. They always seem to...

 

[hippie_hunter]

I tend to be against gun control laws but this is just plain stupid.

 

[Tron5000]

http://www.newsbusters.org/node/12556

"The ABC anchor (John Stossel) cited the case of Kennesaw, Georgia's law that requires its citizens to own guns, relaying a local police officer's observations that crime had dropped after the law passed. Lieutenant Craig Graydon, Kennesaw Police Department: 'Well, after the city ordinance passed, there was actually a decrease in reported crime in the Kennesaw area, especially violent crime.' Stossel described two instances in which guns were used by law-abiding citizens to stop criminals, including students at the Appalachian School of Law who went to their cars and retrieved their guns after a gunman attacked their school in January 2002."


http://www.gunlaws.com/NationalAcademyStudy.htm

"THIS month the National Academy of Sciences issued a 328-page report on gun-control laws. The big news is that the academy’s panel couldn’t identify any benefits of the decades-long effort to reduce crime and injury by restricting gun ownership. The only conclusion it could draw was: Let’s study the question some more (presumably, until we find the results we want).

"The academy, however, should believe its own findings. Based on 253 journal articles, 99 books, 43 government publications, a survey that covered 80 different gun-control measures and some of its own empirical work, the panel couldn’t identify a single gun-control regulation that reduced violent crime, suicide or accidents.

"From the assault-weapons ban to the Brady Act to one-gun-a-month restrictions to gun locks, nothing worked.

"The study was not the work of gun-control opponents: The panel was set up during the Clinton administration, and all but one of its members (whose views on guns were publicly known before their appointments) favored gun control."

...continued at link

 

[Tron5000]

I think if that crazy kid is psychologically ill, yes, he will pull the trigger regardless of how many people are carrying guns.

As for how far he'd get... I can't tell you. But Like I said earlier, you have to assume that everyone in that classroom is able to act rationally. You have to assume that a student will be able to tell the shooter from another kid who pulled a gun out to stop that shooter. You have the potential to create a far worse situation on top of an already bad situation. Also, you have to assume that every student will carry a gun to class. Even if this law is passed, you probably won't see a lot of students carrying guns to campus. That may refute a lot of my argument against the gun bill... but if you think about it, the people who would be willing to carry guns on campus to begin with are gun nuts, some of which purely want a gun so they can play hero...

If this was a perfect situation, the shooter would fire, and a classmate nearby would stop him. But I doubt this will ever be a perfect situation. The shooter will fire, and three kids will pop up their guns... unaware of who the original shooter was, or confused by all the weapons in site... and someone who is "innocent" will end up shot instead. That will give the shooter time to react, if he has the ability to, and more people could end up dead.

The other thing I haven't mentioned is that students who want to kill their fellow students will find creative ways around the gun law. Like going into residence halls in the middle of the night and figuring out a way to kill students in their sleep... because 70% of students don't lock their doors at night... and residence hall security almost always sucks. Or they'll go to a social event, such as a basketball game, where there is a bigger crowd and you won't be able to tell who the shooter is right away. They'll find ways around this. They always seem to...

I don't think it will be difficult to tell the gunman apart from anyone else trying to help. The gunman will be the one walking through the door, pointing the gun and mowing people down. The student trying to help will be the kid that dives to the ground, grabs his weapon and opens fire when he has a shot.

The people I know that have concealed-carry permits and arm themselves don't fancy themselves as heroes. They are law-abiding citizens who simply want to prevent harm being done to themselves or others. Every day you hear stories of murders; most of these are committed by individuals who obtained their weapons through illegal means.

"The study noted the number of criminals who obtained guns from retail outlets was dwarfed by the number of those who picked up their arms through means other than legal purchases. The report was the result of interviews with more than 18,000 state and federal inmates conducted nationwide. It found that nearly 80 percent of those interviewed got their guns from friends or family members, or on the street through illegal purchases.

"Less than 9 percent were bought at retail outlets and only seven-tenths of 1 percent came from gun shows."
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=42167

You don't often hear stories of people who prevent crimes with their legally-owned firearms, but there are many of those stories out there. They're generally, however, not given coverage on major news networks.

 

[The Senator]

I tend to be against gun control laws but this is just plain stupid.

There you have it folks, debate closed!

 

[The Senator]

I don't think it will be difficult to tell the gunman apart from anyone else trying to help. The gunman will be the one walking through the door, pointing the gun and mowing people down. The student trying to help will be the kid that dives to the ground, grabs his weapon and opens fire when he has a shot.

Again, you assume the kid will go for the floor, or that the shooter will just randomly enter a room point blank. What about lecture halls, where there are hundreds of students seated and several are constantly moving about? It would be very easy to infiltrate a lecture hall and start firing a few minutes later. Most people don't take notice of what their classmates look like, so no one will think differently of him, especially if his weapon is concealed.

The people I know that have concealed-carry permits and arm themselves don't fancy themselves as heroes. They are law-abiding citizens who simply want to prevent harm being done to themselves or others. Every day you hear stories of murders; most of these are committed by individuals who obtained their weapons through illegal means.

Right, but there are a lot of people who have a "Rambo" complex, who think they can be heroic if the situation presents itself.

As for illegal gun sales... then the government needs to make sure that these things don't happen. Ban people from participating in gun shows if they don't have a license. Ban people from selling weapons which aren't registered. Severely punish people by taking away their gun license or fining them heftily for violating these laws. There is a lot which can be done.

But to go beyond that... the killers at VT and NIU purchased their guns legally. So these incidents can happen even if guns are bought properly.

You don't often hear stories of people who prevent crimes with their legally-owned firearms, but there are many of those stories out there. They're generally, however, not given coverage on major news networks.

That is true. But it's more tragic when someone kills someone else because they intend to do so, rather than if it's done in self defense. That's why it gets covered more.