The History of 300

Discussion in 'Misc. Comics Films' started by Asteroid-Man, Jul 27, 2006.

  1. Asteroid-Man

    Asteroid-Man Ham Sammiches

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    Hi, I expert in Persian history and I don't ever remember reading that this Spartan and his army of 300 beat the Persians. At least not Xerxes. He had conquered Greece so could someone clear this up for me? Did it really happen? Are they going to make the Persians look like barbarians or heartless monsters? I want to see a movie on ancient history WITHOUT a bias opinion. Those are the reasons I hated troy and Alexander. SO will someone please clear up for me the storyline and who wins in the end? Because if they greatly changed it like in troy and Alexander then I won't watch it. Thanks
     
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  2. kytrigger

    kytrigger Well-Known Member

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    If you want to just see a historical movie, then don't see this. It's not meant to be historical, but more inspirational. Basically it's the tale of 300 Spartan soldiers fighting the Persian army at Thermopylae. Yes in reality there were more than 300 soldiers there and whatnot, but this is more based off of the legend and folklore that sprang from that battle, so it's not going to be accurate.

    And I am in no way an expert in history or anything, but Xerxes didn't conquer Greece. He came damn close, but lost key battles at Salamis and eventaully lost the war at Plataea, at least that is how I always heard it.
     
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  3. herakles

    herakles Well-Known Member

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    YOU'VE must of be given your lessons by a Persian who likes to forget the That BOTH Invasion of Greece by Persia FAILED!!!! Ever heard of the The Battle of Marathon (490 BC) IN Greece we STILL celebrate this battle though it's not a REAL national holiday like the 4th of July. Recently there has been Dodekatheists (12 worshipers) celebrating the battle by having reconstructed ancient rituals at the site of the battle. ALSO PERSIA NEVER CONQUERED HELLAS!!!!!!!!! WE CONQUERED Persia through Alexander though!


    Also BIG misconception of this battle is that ONLY the Spartans fought with their 300 sires (ONLY Fathers of male children were allowed to fight this battle since it was a suicide mission!) Leonidas had 3000-7000 Greek Hoplites from the polis' around the area of the battle and Pelopponnese to help hold the Persian advance into Greece proper.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Thermopylae
    In the Battle of Thermopylae of 480 BC an alliance of Greek city-states fought the invading Persian army in a mountain pass. Vastly outnumbered, the Greeks held back the Persian advance for seven days. Leonidas, the Spartan King commanding the army, held up the enemy in one of the most famous last stands of history. The resistance of the Spartan-led army offered Athens the invaluable opportunity to make battle preparations and decisively defeat the Persians at the battles of Salamis. The final blow was delivered at Plataea, ending the Persian invasion of Greece and marking the rise of the Athenian Empire as a political and cultural world power. The performance of the defenders at the battle of Thermopylae is often used as an example of the advantages of training, equipment and good use of terrain to maximise an army's potential, as well as a symbol of courage against overwhelming odds.
     
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  4. Topdawg

    Topdawg Well-Known Member

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    ^ Burn!!!
     
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  5. Lady Leonidas

    Lady Leonidas Well-Known Member

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    Asteroid-Man,

    First of all, I teach history, so I side with you on "truth finding" and not often treating both sides fairly. And as historians, we know how things are presented depending on who is telling the story, who is the victor, and who writes or re-writes the history. And this story appears to be told from the Spartan point of view and is going to probaby favor the Spartans...

    The Battle at Thermopylae was won by the Persians. And Xerxes DID occupy Athens before the Persian defeat at Salamis. That is history and can not be changed.

    Also keep in mind that the one person whose historic information we often depend regarding this period in world events is that of Herodotus, who was Ionian (Greek)... We need to keep that in mind as well.

    With that said, I just purchased Frank Miller's graphic novel today and scanning through it... the end of the novel. This is some of the dialogue on both sides. Some of this language can be interpreted in many different ways... again, depending on your point of view.

    Xerxes/Persians: In the heat of what appears to be the last day of battle, this is some of the conversation:

    "Listen to your fellow Greek He can attest to the divine one's generosity. Despite your several insults... despite your horrid blasphemies... the lord of hosts is prepare to forgive all and more, to reward your service. You fight for your lands? Keep them! You fight for Sparta? She will be wealthier and more powerful than ever before!You fight for your kingship? You will be proclaimed warlord of all Greece...answerable only to the one true master of the world!"

    Now, was Xerxes actually willing to do that? It depends on who you talk to.

    Leonidas/Spartans: They have lost the Battle of Thermopylae and the 300 lay dead. This is some of the conversation:

    "Captain Dilios spins his stories. His best story. The one about the Hot Gates. In the waters of Salamis, Athenian searfaring mastery lead the united Greek navy to shatter the Persian armada."

    How do you interpret the term "spins". Does he just "tell" the story or does he exaggerate about the victory? Again... it depends on who is reading and who is telling the story.

    Overall... IMHO... this story is about the 300 Spartans and undoubtly leans to their side. But, I guess one will have to actually watch the film to see. And even with that, it is going to up to how people interpret things.

    BTW - I thought that TROY gave a rather balanced point in its presentation. The Greeks came off as barbarians in that one... not the Persians. IMHO!

    As Kytrigger said... the keywords are "graphic novel based on legend".

    Lastly, you should see this one, Asteroid Man, if only so that you can refute any thing you see as a serious inaccuracy in the film.

    And Herakles, realize that Asteroid Man has a very valid concern. For many people... this will be their "history lesson" on this battle, accurate or not. That is always a danger when it comes to "History vs. Hollywood"; which I hope the History Channel will do when this film is released.

    And I understand your view as a Greek... so I am not taking sides here... trying to be unbiased and presenting what I see.

    Lady Leonidas :xmen:

    "Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." - Dr. Martin Luther King
     
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  6. herakles

    herakles Well-Known Member

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    All that is true but the battle was nothing more that stalling tactic and the occupation of Athens also was unavoidable since the main aim was to repluse the Persian navy so that the navy would be unable to supply the army rather than defend the city from being sacked.


    I look at this movie much in the same way I would look at Braveheart, action movie NOT based on Historical fact other than the cause of the battle and the result! If you've read my other posts on this movie you'll see that I am not too hot on this movie being made which is based on a comic book! I would have wanted a movie on this event to based on Gates of Fire or Historical FACT! Also in the comic the Greek betrayer is a deformed Spartan, The Spartans at birth were presented to the elders to see if they were fit to live and if found unfit the babe was thrown off cliff. What I'm trying to say is AsteroidMan take this movie with a gain of salt! It is NOT based on FACT!

    As far as Troy and Alexander I HATE was Hollywood has done lately. Troy would have been SO MUCH better if it included more of mythological appects of the story and was a 2 parter. Alexander was just a bad attempt by the WRONG Director for that Story.
     
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  7. Lady Leonidas

    Lady Leonidas Well-Known Member

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  8. Midnyte_Sun

    Midnyte_Sun Medianoche de Sol

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    I agree with Lady Leonidas that this movie can (and possibly will) become a history lesson for many historically ignorant viewers out there, and the timing could not be perfect with today's political turmoil with Persia today (ie. Midde East).

    What more could you want? You got brave, patriotic white freedom loving soldiers fighting dark-skinned, pierced, evil doers from the Middle East whose culture, costume, and custom are alien.

    HOWEVER, if the movie sticks closer to Frank Miller's graphic novel, than the political undertones will be overshadowed by the struggle of one of the last martial races of the ancient world, the Spartans. I will watch the movie with an open mind and hope to God it sticks close to the graphic novel.
     
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  9. Mr. Socko

    Mr. Socko Well-Known Member

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    I learned this stuff last year then forgot it
     
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  10. Lady Leonidas

    Lady Leonidas Well-Known Member

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    You and I are on the same page...

    We will see what happens...

    Lady Leonidas :xmen:
     
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  11. Red Mask

    Red Mask Human Killing Machine

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    "Freedom loving"? The ancient Spartans practiced slavery in their country! The slaves worked the fields and such while the Spartans got to live their warrior life style. The diminishing of the slavery contributed to the collapse of Spartan society.
     
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  12. Colossus24

    Colossus24 Well-Known Member

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    The United States practiced slavery until 140 years ago. They had a very crude form of democracy, but it was still a relatively radical concept at the time.
     
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  13. Asteroid-Man

    Asteroid-Man Ham Sammiches

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    You know who you cannot trust on most history? Wikipedia. Greek had better historical facts so read directly out of a history book. And anyways, Greece didn't take over Persia buddy, Masedonia did. Greece just gave Alexander the men. And Darius the third (one of the world's first pimps) was the king. Because he would sleep with many people, Persia lost respect for him and only about 1/3 of the Persian army came to help Darius III. And Xerses did conquor Greece. Oh and by the way, in history, if you look at the most land ever conqored in history it was Persia under the reign of Xerses. The reign did not end until the death of Xerses. The army had no leader at this time. No king. He had many sons and daughters who wanted to rule and the palace became a place of death when the children started killing each other to reign power, then a new dynasty formed so that's how the Achaemanian Dynasty ended years later the Sassanians, the only 100% Achaemanians, gained control and retrieved all of the land that once was persia. The size of persia ended with the end of the Sassanians during a civil war. The dynasty after that lost all the land. And you do realize Darius' second attempt on Greece (which wis a month or so after the marathon) was victorious?
     
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  14. Red Mask

    Red Mask Human Killing Machine

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    That does not excuse either country from practicing the slavery. America learned how to do without it and become greater. Sparta did not.
     
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  15. Colossus24

    Colossus24 Well-Known Member

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    But that doesn't mean that they didn't love freedom, no one would accuse Americans who lived before the Civil War of not loving freedom, and many of then died to attain it.
     
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  16. ultimatefan

    ultimatefan The Batman must come back

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    Well, no one should believe in history-based movies, which always tend to romanticize and take "poetic licenses". Anyway, even so the DVD will probably include some history-related material pointing out the main differences between legend and fact.
     
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  17. ultimatefan

    ultimatefan The Batman must come back

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  18. centurion13

    centurion13 Guest

    Come on...use a little moral relativism here. How long did it take the west to abolish slavery??? Having slaves to them was just having an ordinary possession. It was just a way of life. You think Sparta and other city states and cultures at that time really gave thought to the abolition of slavery?
     
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  19. herakles

    herakles Well-Known Member

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    Hellas was invaded by Persia only twice and both invasions unltimatly failed so Hallas was never conquered by Persia!!! Darius and Xerxes' attempts FAILED!!! Daruis (Marathon) and Xerxes (Thermoplyae and Plataea) where the ONLY 2 attempts at military conquest of Greece by Persia. The Greek polis of Asia Minor WHERE under Persian control at various times BUT Hellas WAS NEVER Taken!!!!! Only the Romans, the Turks, and the Germans have taken Hellas!

    Persia attempted to weaken Greece by Backing Sparta in the Peloponnesian War. Also Makadonians are of Dorian stock hense a Hellenic Tribe. I repectfully disbute your claim on who took the most land, That would be Ghengis Khan!! NOT Xerxes:woot:

    Also If Darius' "second attempt" was successful then WHY did HIS SON had to come back in less than 11 years after. Also Xerxes said that he wanted to avenge his father's defeat??? and please show ne your sources? I own Heroditus' histories and Thucydides. The Wikipedia article uses him along with Thucydides as it sources! So since the article has contemperary sources I would trust the article.

    Also the Reason why Sparta fell was not due to the diminshing of slavery but because of it's laws! Spartan could lose his citizenship due to cowardess to not paying a grain tax. When Spartan reached age of majority he had to join a mess hall. If he didn't join the Mess hall he wasn't granted citizenship. Also He was required to give grain and if he wasn't able to give grain he lost his citizenship AND his Land allotment which was divided up between the full citizens.

    The population of "FULL" Spartans started shrinking to the point of it having less than a 1000 Spartan citizen hoplites to field for battle After their defeat at Battle of Leuctra in 371 BC!!! Also agoge was made easier as the years passed on and Walls were built around Sparta! The Spartans ended up using Mercenaries for their wars during the hellenistic Period.

    Each attempt to change the Land allotment and grant the "lesser Spartans" Full rights again and make the agoge "SPARTAN" again was overuled by the various Spartan Land owners who had those Openmind3ed Kings over thrown!
     
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  20. giggs11uk

    giggs11uk Well-Known Member

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    let me dumb this down a bit

    the persians were comin to atack the athenians. So the athenians asked sparta for help and the king gave his word to the athenians. When the king announced this to his armies or the king of his armies(it was a to king based society go figure) they said no the slaves will revolt and there will be no protection. So the king sent his own personal 300 body guards, because he gave his word to the athenians.

    THen durin the battle they had the persians completly blocked and thousands were dyin. Untill some B^sterd betrayed the spartans and helped the army get to the back for a rear attack.

    Instead of retreatin the spartans took it like a man and died
     
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  21. Colossus24

    Colossus24 Well-Known Member

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    when you said dumb it down you sure weren't kidding.
     
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  22. Red Mask

    Red Mask Human Killing Machine

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    And that is why today we should appreciate the modern standards of freedom and democracy than praise antiquated views. A strong army fights against foreign invaders. That's all it should be about.
     
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  23. Red Mask

    Red Mask Human Killing Machine

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    But afterwards, those who struggled for greater democracy and wider freedom - they brought us to where we are now. Examples of these are the struggles for women's rights, and more racial equality that gave Black people the right to vote. Move forward, not back.
     
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  24. Colossus24

    Colossus24 Well-Known Member

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    umm so you are saying that we should discount their fight for the most advanced form of freedom at the time, because it isn't perfect? Does it make them any less of freedom lovers? Does it diminish our standards by celebrating a major change in the history of the world?
     
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  25. centurion13

    centurion13 Guest

    One who admires certain ancient cultures or views does not have to embrace every single idea or view. Should we turn our noses up to our founding fathers just because they posessed slaves? I, for one, think we should admire classical Greece. After all, Western culture did start there. If the Persians would have conquered that small penisula as they put it, who knows how different the world today would be.
     
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